Academic Advice Needed

[monkeyman]

Hi Everyone, 

 

I'm a non-traditional student who's planning on applying to the U of C MD this upcoming application cycle.  I'm non-traditional in the sense that I have 2 undergraduate degrees (in molecular bio and nursing) and have been practicing as a tx coordinator/ICU RN/clinical instructor for the past several years.  My GPA in my past degrees was quite poor: about a 3.2 in mol. bio and 2.4-2.5 in nursing.  I'll have to take advantage of the 10 year exclusion rule to even be considered.

 

Over the last couple of years I went back to school to do some academic upgrading as an open studies student.  I took mostly senior/graduate level science courses in physiology, nutrition, immunology/infection as well as doing a research project. I had a 3.76 last year, thanks to a C+ in stats ... This year I'm doing a bit better and looking at something around a 3.9.  

 

I would like some advice on potentially dropping a course this term.  Its an advanced physiology course and I am getting around a B in it at the moment.  If I drop this class, I will likely get 3.9 or higher this year.  If I don't drop it, my GPA this year will probably be in the low 3.8 range.  Since I didn't do very well last year, I really need to have a strong GPA to finish my upgrading.  I am not sure whether it would be smart to withdraw from the course. I have always enrolled in 5 full courses, so even if I drop this one I'll still have > 24 credits required for U of C to consider it a full time undergraduate year.   I know GPA doesn't mean that much in the greater scheme of things at the U of C, but I'm quite confused about how to proceed and would like your advice.  In addition, I don't think the admissions committee looks at "W's" very favorably. I have several W's in the remote past (> 10 years ago) so this definitely doesn't help the situation. 

 

Would you drop the course if you were in my shoes? 

 

Thanks in advance!

[End Poverty]

Hi,

 

I am not sure how the admission committee looks at academic qualifications-- and I am not sure what they would prefer to see a B or a W.

 

If you drop the course -- how would that affect your calculated GPA? If dropping the course will allow you to receive a higher calculated GPA, then I would drop the course- I feel that the calculated GPA benefit would outweigh any of the drawbacks associated with the admission committee seeing a W on transcript. The calculated GPA is what is used in 20% of their calculation in the pre-interview stage. However, I believe that the W might affect the 10% subjective academic evaluation section. However, you can score higher on the subjective evaluation section if you do well on the science components of the MCAT.

 

Best of Luck

[HiHopes]

I would be very careful about withdrawing. As EndPoverty pointed out, you may be able to weigh the pros and cons related to either the GPA calculation or the overall academic evaluation. However, considering the subjectivity of the admissions system, I could easily see someone in admissions taking withdrawing without a medical or very pressing reason (I am considering withdrawing due to personally unsatisfactory performance a less pressing reason in the echelon of possibilities) as quitting. That being said, I think that the B will be scrutinized to some extent as well. I just think that the collateral damage to your application of a lower grade is lesser than the potential negative "feeling" an admissions committee may get from a withdrawal without the aforementioned serious reasons. The conclusion is that your choice is difficult and there really is no easy or better answer.

[monkeyman]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

 

EndPoverty, my application GPA if I were to to drop the course will likely be in the 3.83-3.85 range.  If I were to keep the class I would probably end up with around a 3.76-3.78.  As you said the higher weightage on the calculated GPA is what made me consider dropping this course.  

 

HiHopes, do you think my course selections would be construed as challenging and somewhat help to mitigate the negative impact of the W on the subjective assessment of academic merit category? My courses last term were 2 advanced physiology courses, third year immunology, an advanced oncology course and a research project.  I have no idea what courses/combination of courses the committee would consider harder, etc.  I was also working a couple of jobs part time so I don`t know if or how that factors in.  Any thoughts? 

 

My logic to considering dropping the course would be that the benefits of a higher application GPA would be greater than the negative impact on the subjective assessment of academic merit.  Furthermore, I hope my course selection and MCAT science sections will somehow help to reduce the negative impact of the withdrawal.   

 

Thanks again for the supportive responses.   

[HiHopes]

I do believe that you working a couple jobs part-time, combined with the course load of this particular semester, raise a positive flag in terms of commitment to a challenging/rigorous academic and professional routine. Do the admissions officers thing so? Now that is the question. 

 

Here's how I see it, and I will ask you to bear with me:

 

Dr. Walker has mentioned in older blog posts about how there seems to be a "bleeding effect" from individual people evaluating a file. What he means by this is that the person who is evaluating you may take an initial look at your file and find something that really speaks to them personally, emotionally, ideologically, etc. This person may (some certainly will) express a degree of a halo effect when looking at the rest of your file. The good may seem better and the not as good may seem not to bad. This applies negatively as well.

Now talking specifics: 

Scenario 1) You did your best, working as well as studying with a rigorous curriculum. You own up to your B. You explain in your additional comments that working and studying challenged you a lot in that particular semester, but you managed it well and came out with only one course with a relatively low mark. The way I see it, it looks like you're a fighter. Plus, coming out with a 3.76-3.78 puts you around 0.5-0.6 above the median GPA (the 100 point mark), which is around 3.72 - 3.73 if I am not mistaken. You are still doing okay as I see it. I am also fairly confident that a B is more flag-worthy than a W.

Scenario 2) You did your best, working as well as studying with a rigorous curriculum. You strategically withdraw. The way I understand it is you are withdrawing only because of the grade. Here it gets tricky, because there are a couple venues:

2a) You needed part time work because you were going through a financial emergency and was very stressful. This was a different semester from others; the only semester in which you worked part-time (which means it is a statistically deviant semester and could be reasonably considered as such by admissions).

2b) You have always worked part-time along with school and you were doing fine until now. You did pretty well in all classes except this one just as a matter of having picked a particularly challenging semester. This showcases both that you challenge yourself academically and that you are still figuring out where to draw the line.

 

If 2b is the case, then I think it just becomes an iteration of scenario 1. Own up to your B because you're not perfect and you are learning just how many battles you can fight.

If 2a is the case, then I think you could reasonably withdraw and have it not look like you were playing the system for marks.

 

If 2b is the case and you withdraw, I tend to think that you may trigger the same "suspicion" if you will that I feel when I think of this scenario.

 

Please take this with a huuuuuge grain of salt. I cannot stress this enough. I am sharing my thoughts because I know that these decisions can be grueling. I figured I'd share another applicant's perspective on your particular case as I see it. I think this is of value because some of the people who will be evaluating you will be students.

 

Speaking purely mathematically, you have a 3.76 to fall back on, and if you get another 3.76 you will be around 0.03 higher than the 2016 mean (3.73). The SD for that year was .209, so you'd get a score pretty close to the 100 point mark on what is worth 20% of your pre-MMI score. Last year, applicants needed at least 101.79 on the pre-MMI to get an interview (and having just that would put you at the zeroth percentile among interviewees, so you are ideally aiming much higher). I believe that this is why EndPoverty seemed to lean toward withdrawing. I see the potential in this, although I fearfully respect the subjectivity of the file assessment and still think a purely mathematical analysis of this will not work a lot of the time.

 

I hope I have provided you with some guidance. I may also have given you just as many more questions, and I apologize for that. Keep fighting and you will get there, my friend. 

[adhominem]

Given that in your previous degrees you had several W's, I think yet another would be incredibly damaging during the subjective review. 

Consistently withdrawing from courses might be a red-flag to admissions because they may be led to believe you can't handle a full course load. Even if you justify the W's, they might only take that with a grain of salt and chalk it up to your reasons merely being excuses. Plus, they have no way of knowing (or verifying it if you tell them) that you were on track to get a B, and they could assume the worst (i.e. W to avoid failing).

In my opinion: keep the B, and explain how you overcame some form of adversity in the additional comments section. The small decrease in GPA will hurt you by a set amount, whereas the 10% subjective analysis could lose you huge points. The kicker of course is that you have no way of knowing exactly how much. 

EDIT: I also want to add that the fact you're taking higher level courses will work in your favor during the subjective analysis, which is yet another reason to keep the B I think. 

[End Poverty]

I think all the above mentioned comments are very valid and true. I also think a cGPA of 3.76-3.78 or a cGPA of 3.83-3.85 is very competitive as an IP applicant at U of C, especially if you have great experiences and  you word your Top 10 properly.   If you will be getting a B in addition to all of the part time jobs you currently have as well as the other higher level courses you are taking-- then I don't think it will be a big deal.

 

I don't know if the following is relevant to the discussion on the subjective evaluation of academic component, but I know a person who applied to U of C several times with different MCAT scores-- he applied once with a slightly higher VR score,  and lower science section scores  ; and he applied twice with a lower VR score- and higher science score. His subjective academic evaluation was directly related to his score on the science MCAT sections ( or his total MCAT score).  Overall, he found it better to apply with the overall higher MCAT score, although he scored slightly lower on VR.   I feel that the subjective assessment heavily weighs the total MCAT score.

[monkeyman]

Again, I really appreciate the highly thoughtful responses.  

 

HiHopes thanks for taking the time to formulate such a well thought out response.  I've always worked through out my upgrading and for the vast majority of my previous degrees. Like everyone else, I've got bills to pay! Therefore, I would be in situation 2b.  I can definitely see why you say this option may be viewed with "suspicion" and would be deleterious to my subjective assessment of academic merit score, especially given what adhominem (thanks for the cogent advise by the way!) highlighted regarding my numerous withdrawals in the remote past.  If I do end up withdrawing, I hope my course selection and (hopefully!) high MCAT science scores mitigate the negative impact of the W.  Can you write anything you want in the additional comments section, or is it for specific things? Are there any limitations to that section? 

 

I was quite distraught at the C+ I got last year in stats, truth be told I had a B+ going into the 50% final, but was ill for the final with virtually no sleep the night before, and felt very intellectually paralyzed during that test.  If I had dropped that class, I would have had a 3.92 last year (with 27 credits)... I just don't want to repeat a similar mistake this year, which is why I am seeking counsel on here.  Overall, I understand that this section is only 10% of the overall pre-MMI score, but I think every little bit matters!  

 

EndPoverty, I'm unsure what the admissions committee considers great experiences.  I'm in my mid 30s and probably have highly eclectic experiences relative to someone younger just because I've been alive longer!  As a health care professional for almost a decade in specialized programs in a large level 1 trauma center, I have tens of thousands of hours of experience working with complex critically ill and transplant patients as well as in clinical instruction of RN trainees.  My other work experience includes everything from bottle depot work, to amusement park ride operation, retail/supplement sales, personal training to medical lab research,etc!  Similar with volunteering/other ECs, I've been involved with the standard hospital volunteering, done U of C 101, been on a larger university club as an executive, written for university papers, am a competitive strength athlete, etc.  Also have ran a landscaping/site maintenance business for a number of years.  Given my weird combo of experiences, I can't see the admissions committee looking at them favorably, as they would probably interpret it as a lack focus, etc.  This is why I really wanted to have a strong GPA/MCAT. 

 

As an older candidate with horrible GPA's in my past degrees I really wanted to get a >3.9 in a more difficult course combination to atone for my past academic performance and show that I could handle it.  I've taken the MCAT > 15 years ago and will be rewriting it this August. I scored a 34S with 13/12 in bio/PS sections respectively.  I am confident I can repeat these scores this August... CARS, however, will be a whole different story  

 

Sorry about rambling about myself... I felt like giving a more holistic impression of myself as an applicant would help to get more tailored advise.  Thanks again to everyone.  I really really appreciate it.

[adhominem]

 

EndPoverty, I'm unsure what the admissions committee considers great experiences.  I'm in my mid 30s and probably have highly eclectic experiences relative to someone younger just because I've been alive longer!  As a health care professional for almost a decade in specialized programs in a large level 1 trauma center, I have tens of thousands of hours of experience working with complex critically ill and transplant patients as well as in clinical instruction of RN trainees.  My other work experience includes everything from bottle depot work, to amusement park ride operation, retail/supplement sales, personal training to medical lab research,etc!  Similar with volunteering/other ECs, I've been involved with the standard hospital volunteering, done U of C 101, been on a larger university club as an executive, written for university papers, am a competitive strength athlete, etc.  Also have ran a landscaping/site maintenance business for a number of years.  Given my weird combo of experiences, I can't see the admissions committee looking at them favorably, as they would probably interpret it as a lack focus, etc.  This is why I really wanted to have a strong GPA/MCAT. 

To me, the bolded experience there means everything. You have relevant experience in healthcare. You likely possess all the soft skills that they're supposedly looking for with the extra-curriculars, based on your experiences with patients and other healthcare providers. If you exemplify the canMEDS competencies through your experiences as an RN, clinical instructor, etc. in your top ten you should receive a fairly good score. Having truly relevant experience is a strength because you know much more about what it means to help patients through being a nurse than you would through 99% of the extra-curricular activities your younger competitors may have. Remember that it isn't simply a matter of listing all of the clubs you were a member of, and how many hours you spent volunteering with organization X, it is about what you learned that you can bring to your career as an MD. 

[End Poverty]

Again, I really appreciate the highly thoughtful responses.  

 

HiHopes thanks for taking the time to formulate such a well thought out response.  I've always worked through out my upgrading and for the vast majority of my previous degrees. Like everyone else, I've got bills to pay! Therefore, I would be in situation 2b.  I can definitely see why you say this option may be viewed with "suspicion" and would be deleterious to my subjective assessment of academic merit score, especially given what adhominem (thanks for the cogent advise by the way!) highlighted regarding my numerous withdrawals in the remote past.  If I do end up withdrawing, I hope my course selection and (hopefully!) high MCAT science scores mitigate the negative impact of the W.  Can you write anything you want in the additional comments section, or is it for specific things? Are there any limitations to that section? 

 

I was quite distraught at the C+ I got last year in stats, truth be told I had a B+ going into the 50% final, but was ill for the final with virtually no sleep the night before, and felt very intellectually paralyzed during that test.  If I had dropped that class, I would have had a 3.92 last year (with 27 credits)... I just don't want to repeat a similar mistake this year, which is why I am seeking counsel on here.  Overall, I understand that this section is only 10% of the overall pre-MMI score, but I think every little bit matters!  

 

EndPoverty, I'm unsure what the admissions committee considers great experiences.  I'm in my mid 30s and probably have highly eclectic experiences relative to someone younger just because I've been alive longer!  As a health care professional for almost a decade in specialized programs in a large level 1 trauma center, I have tens of thousands of hours of experience working with complex critically ill and transplant patients as well as in clinical instruction of RN trainees.  My other work experience includes everything from bottle depot work, to amusement park ride operation, retail/supplement sales, personal training to medical lab research,etc!  Similar with volunteering/other ECs, I've been involved with the standard hospital volunteering, done U of C 101, been on a larger university club as an executive, written for university papers, am a competitive strength athlete, etc.  Also have ran a landscaping/site maintenance business for a number of years.  Given my weird combo of experiences, I can't see the admissions committee looking at them favorably, as they would probably interpret it as a lack focus, etc.  This is why I really wanted to have a strong GPA/MCAT. 

 

As an older candidate with horrible GPA's in my past degrees I really wanted to get a >3.9 in a more difficult course combination to atone for my past academic performance and show that I could handle it.  I've taken the MCAT > 15 years ago and will be rewriting it this August. I scored a 34S with 13/12 in bio/PS sections respectively.  I am confident I can repeat these scores this August... CARS, however, will be a whole different story

 

Sorry about rambling about myself... I felt like giving a more holistic impression of myself as an applicant would help to get more tailored advise.  Thanks again to everyone.  I really really appreciate it.

 

Hi,

 

I believe you have the potential to score really high on the ECs/Top 10 section, especially because of your diverse experience in health care setting.  There is a lot of advice on the forum on how to write your Top 10. . I remember I had at least 5 drafts of my Top 10 activities. I spent ~8 hours working on my essays / Top 10 activities, but it really paid off. I managed to get interviews two years in a row, despite a GPA on the low side. 

 

Best of luck

[monkeyman]

I certainly hope the admissions committee shares the favorable views of the EC's like you guys said... Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice and support! You guys are awesome!!