"Dentistry is NOT what everyone tells you"

[djdents]

Is this relevant to dentists practising in Canada? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=969539

[reddishh]

to summarize what's written up there and what people have replied on,

 

Paying $400k for a dental degree has become a huge risk. I guess it's bc US dental school is really expensive (more than $200k in most schools), so it wouldn't necessarily apply to us.

 

So I guess it can apply to those who go to American/Australian dental schools (very expensive tuition fees as an international student), but not so much to people studying in Canada as they can get much more lons/LOC and much cheaper tuition (even though UBC has high tuition fees)

[goldcrown250]

to summarize what's written up there and what people have replied on,

 

Paying $400k for a dental degree has become a huge risk. I guess it's bc US dental school is really expensive (more than $200k in most schools), so it wouldn't necessarily apply to us.

 

So I guess it can apply to those who go to American/Australian dental schools (very expensive tuition fees as an international student), but not so much to people studying in Canada as they can get much more lons/LOC and much cheaper tuition (even though UBC has high tuition fees)

 

They're also raising the issues that corporate companies are opening dental chains and offering services for a lower rate than a private dentist can match, and that a new mid-level job is apparently being created called a Dental Therapist who can perform some techniques that a dentist would usually do and charge less.

 

I don't believe that corporate dental chains and mid-level dental therapists exist in canada (though I'm just a predent, so I could be wrong!) so hopefully we are safe.

 

Hopefully some current dental students and dentists can comment!

[reddishh]

They're also raising the issues that corporate companies are opening dental chains and offering services for a lower rate than a private dentist can match, and that a new mid-level job is apparently being created called a Dental Therapist who can perform some techniques that a dentist would usually do and charge less.

 

I don't believe that corporate dental chains and mid-level dental therapists exist in canada (though I'm just a predent, so I could be wrong!) so hopefully we are safe.

 

Hopefully some current dental students and dentists can comment!

 

yeah that one sounds kinda scary..

 

but I can say if it happens in the US, we can't say i won't happen here in Canada.

 

Even if it doesn't happen in Canada, all those dentists in US will seek jobs in Canada which will affect us. So everything bad happens down there will not be good for us

[futureGP]

How easy is it for us grads to come and practise in canada?

[pickley]

Dental Therapists already exist in Canada, they have for a long time. They have limited procedures they are allowed to do.

 

If you're thinking Dentistry is a great career to get rich, you're mistaken. In order to make top dollar as a Dentist you have to be willing to work your butt off and these days most likely work in a more rural area, and nothing guarantees success. Why do you think the Dentistry profession has one of the highest suicide rates!?

 

From a financial standpoint, no career should be worth $400,000 in tuition....even the "low" $200,000 for Canadian schools is a pretty hefty amount. Especially with the uncertain economy lately, you could end up paying twice your loan amount due to interest by the time you pay it all off! Yikes!

[reddishh]

They're also raising the issues that corporate companies are opening dental chains and offering services for a lower rate than a private dentist can match

 

 

I think this part scares me the most.

 

I have no doubt US companies will do these kind of things soon and there will be effects up here in Canada as well.

 

I think dentistry has become the field really risky to enter after paying $400k (especially if you study abroad).

 

IMO, this uncertainty will get worse every year, and more people will try to enter a dental residency program, or specialty programs (I feel sorry for those studying in Aus) because this will affect mostly general dentists.

[dreambig1918]

All I want to say is don't let this thread discourage you pre-dents. If you want a good idea of how the current dental field is then go and shadow or talk to actual dentists. And not just one dentist but multiple. Lots of this stuff is pure speculation and personally, 100-120k per year is a ton of freakin money. Very stable lifestyle and well above average.

[reddishh]

All I want to say is don't let this thread discourage you pre-dents. If you want a good idea of how the current dental field is then go and shadow or talk to actual dentists. And not just one dentist but multiple. Lots of this stuff is pure speculation and personally, 100-120k per year is a ton of freakin money. Very stable lifestyle and well above average.

 

I agree with you but it also largely depends on locations. I think you are from Alberta where supply of dentist isn't as high as in Toronto or Vancouver. But if you look at the major cities, it's become much harder and competitive to earn 100-120k per year (until 2008, there was no problem to make this much very easily) And it will get worse every year.

 

 

I've shadowed 10 dentists in the past 3 years and all of them have said they are making less money than they usued to, and currently worry about the future of this field.

[djdents]

Okay lets put some numbers down. Please correct my calculations if they are wrong:

 

-Lets say, first year out you are going to gross 120k after taxes that's about 95k

 

-If you take out 250k in loans which is the max offered by Canadian banks. And go to a US school. Hopefully you can somehow manage to get an extra 100k from friends and relatives and OSAP combined to pay the 350k (tuition + living).

 

-If you plan to repay that 250k loan in 10 years that will be 29.5k/year that you are paying in monthly payments. 95k-29.5k=65.5k. So now you have 65.5k to pay back relatives, OSAP, and live off of.

 

-Although 65k is not an insane amount of money, your income is probably going to increase yearly. Also you are doing something you love.

 

-Now in my opinion there are two things that can improve this situation

 

1) living with a spouse or your parents: if you can manage that, then you can make larger monthly payments and pay off your loan faster. Therefore, make more money faster

 

2) learning as much as you can about the business side of dentistry and starting your own practice, because really, that's where the money is going to be made.

 

Your thoughts?

[reddishh]

Okay lets put some numbers down. Please correct my calculations if they are wrong:

 

-Lets say, first year out you are going to gross 120k after taxes that's about 95k

 

-If you take out 250k in loans which is the max offered by Canadian banks. And go to a US school. Hopefully you can somehow manage to get an extra 100k from friends and relatives and OSAP combined to pay the 350k (tuition + living).

 

-If you plan to repay that 250k loan in 10 years that will be 29.5k/year that you are paying in monthly payments. 95k-29.5k=65.5k. So now you have 65.5k to pay back relatives, OSAP, and live off of.

 

-Although 65k is not an insane amount of money, your income is probably going to increase yearly. Also you are doing something you love.

 

-Now in my opinion there are two things that can improve this situation

 

1) living with a spouse or your parents: if you can manage that, then you can make larger monthly payments and pay off your loan faster. Therefore, make more money faster

 

2) learning as much as you can about the business side of dentistry and starting your own practice, because really, that's where the money is going to be made.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Nicely put here! I definitely don't think 65k/year is too little but when you're working full time + night ****ft + weekends, and bring that much money per year, I wouldn't be really happy.

 

2nd option isn't realistic because 1. you need some experience to open your own practice, 2. you will need to borrow a lot money from the bank which will not happen easily with how the economy looks these days. 3. you probably don't have all your debt paid off, so it will only add to your debt + more interest

 

So if you're thinking of practicing as a GD right after you graduate, and open your practice quickly (it will take couple of years though), lowering your dept from your school is key!

 

Or you can practice in rural areas where you can earn a lot of money to pay off you debt quickly.

 

But regardless of that, when you have a $400k dept for your tuition already, it's not realistic to open your practice in any time soon.

 

so in general, the less debt you have out of dent school, the earlier you can open your practice (obviously other factors matter as well).

 

I guess your 2nd option can work much better for students studying here in Canada with much lower tuition fee (only $30k/year for tuition). But for those studying in the US or Aus for dental school (with $300k+ for tuition alone, more expensive living costs, harder to get LOC, higher bank interests, less connection to dentists in Canada, etc.), they'll have disadvantages for sure. But in the end, it's much less competitive to get into AUS/US dental schools , so I geuss it's a fair trade-off.

[DDSDMD]

what is the tuition like for Canadian students studying dentistry in Australia???

 

is it comparable to studying in the US? like NYU etc

[reddishh]

what is the tuition like for Canadian students studying dentistry in Australia???

 

is it comparable to studying in the US? like NYU etc

 

It's $65,000 in AUS (which is close to $68,000 in Canadian dollars) per year for tuition alone for UMEl and is probably increasing every year. The living costs is really high as well (higher than any cities in the US excpet for NY)

[Ostracized]

If you spend $400,000 on dental school and then plan to work in a saturated city, you're going to have a bad time.

[EricCartman]

I agree with you but it also largely depends on locations. I think you are from Alberta where supply of dentist isn't as high as in Toronto or Vancouver. But if you look at the major cities, it's become much harder and competitive to earn 100-120k per year (until 2008, there was no problem to make this much very easily) And it will get worse every year.

 

 

I've shadowed 10 dentists in the past 3 years and all of them have said they are making less money than they usued to, and currently worry about the future of this field.

 

yes, paying of those student loans is a big question for every recent graduate.

 

i do have friends who are recent graduates and are working in major cities like vancouver, toronto, calgary. they are making over $170k to $250K before taxes, however, they work weekends and evenings and most of them work at two different offices at least. their biggest complain is that most of their weekends are spent at dental offices in malls; however, they are satisfied with their lifestyle. i honestly don't know what kind of lifestyle they are talking about especially if they are working 6 days a week and sometimes late evenings.

 

for new graduates with enormous debts (> 300k), small towns are the way to go.

 

i'll give you my opinion as a dentist working in a small town in alberta 1.5 hrs away from a major city:

Pros:

- Mon to fri, no evening, no weekends, there is option to work weekends if you want.

- cheap cost of living, virtually no commute time, no parking issues, friendly people and a great sense of community.

- can go to major city on weekends for shopping, socializing, etc. as it is only an hour drive.

- Money: just by doing basic dentistry (extractions, restorations, a few endos here and there, very few crowns) you can easily rake in over 200K before taxes as an associate. start doing fancy stuff like impacted wisdom teeth, cerec, bridges, implants and you can go over 350K before taxes. Own your own practice and you can gross $700k+ before taxes and after overhead.

- Learning: you will encounter variety of challenging cases and you will be the go to person to solve these problems as there is no other specialist in town for a referral. you learn a lot. I haven't done hygiene in small town. You might have to do hygiene in big cities like vancouver.

 

Cons:

- if you are single, good luck finding another single person to mingle with. your relationship status on facebook will likely stay single if you live in a small town.

- if you have a spouse, they may not like living in a small town.

- if you are attached to your ethnic culture, you might get bored in a small town, and when i say bored, that would be an understatement.

- if you are close to your friends and families who live far away, your loneliness factor will increase 10 folds.

 

I have lived in major cities and after living in a small town, i probably wouldn't want to live in a big city because i prefer not to waste time commuting, paying parking, paying high rent/house cost, etc..

 

overall, you can make big money ($170k plus before taxes as an associate) in major cities like vancouver calgary toronto, but you are looking at long working hours, weekend hours and late evening hours.

[Mighty Molar]

i do have friends who are recent graduates and are working in major cities like vancouver, toronto, calgary. they are making over $170k to $250K before taxes, however, they work weekends and evenings and most of them work at two different offices at least. their biggest complain is that most of their weekends are spent at dental offices in malls; however, they are satisfied with their lifestyle. i honestly don't know what kind of lifestyle they are talking about especially if they are working 6 days a week and sometimes late evenings.

 

I personally find it rewarding, consider many of my friends in Engineering work almost 7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, no sense of job security, only for 50K before tax

[Ostracized]

overall, you can make big money ($170k plus before taxes as an associate) in major cities like vancouver calgary toronto, but you are looking at long working hours, weekend hours and late evening hours.

 

I'm an associate dentist working in Toronto. $170K as an associate may be doable, but I'd say it is the exception, not the rule. I have a colleague making about 1/2 that much. I'm doing quite well but I'm not close to $170K.

[koft]

Young Obi-wan

 

You have so much to learn

 

Seriously, don't go into a career without fully research the ups and downs of it.

 

Metro city because of competition less pt to go around. Rural, you will be doing a lot better.

[itoothache]

Hi guys. I'm a practicing recent grad and wanted to cheer up some of us/pre-dents with my knowledge and current offer I have from some offices.

 

I find that many of the people who have replied mentions the extremes (low and high).

 

I can't say this applies to all dentists but I will share my experiences.

 

Fortunately, I have many friends (close) and families that are practicing dentistry. I may be misinformed if this is not the truth.

 

On average (at least in the sample that I have n=100+), a recent grade would make roughly 150k. Like many mentioned before, it really depends on where you associate. If you are an hour away, roughly you would make about 50k more than those in the city. A good number of my friends managed to rake over 200k their first year out out of city. A small number of my friends managed to rake in about 80k regardless of location. But most still 150K.

 

It really depends on how you perform. You take home what you produce. When you get out of dental school, not everyone has the same skills and comfort zone. Some have more experiences/efficiency vs others. Sometimes it is just the way we are innately. For example (ONLY for calculation purposes. Not realistic that you have crowns all day long. On average, an associate would do 4-5 crowns a week), a PFM crown is billed at $700. If you can manage to prep/imp/prov in 30 min, you bill $1400 per hr. Some cannot do that and would take about an hour then you bill $700 per hr. OK. that sounds too unrealistic. Hopefully you get my point.

 

An efficient dentist would produce about $400-500/hr and not so efficient usually bills $200-300/hr. Thus, one would produce $3200 per day vs $1600 per day (examples only) and you take a percentage of that. See the difference already?

 

Now that is not the only factor to produce. You need to retain patients and continue treatments. If you are not good with people, chances are you are not going to retain. That means lower production.

 

I'm gonna cut it at this. You need to have certain skill sets in dentistry to be successful. DAT and interviews are part of the admissions because it helps out "a little" being selective (I know it could improve but CDA decides to not to). Don't think that "I graduated from dental school. Give me money." You need to make it.

 

All of us in the profession represent. Be a nice person and we will all do well. Let us all have good reputation to the public.

 

Be happy because nobody is gonna go to a grumpy dentist.

 

P.S. Late night post. Please forgive me for a very unorganized story.

[Ostracized]

Coincidentally today I received the ODA's economic report for dentistry. Literally 30 pages of doom and gloom. To summarize - its bad and it is going to get worse.

 

One point I found interesting: California is thought of as being over saturated, and yet it has fewer dentists per capita than any Canadian province. There are 65% more patients per dentist in California vs. Ontario. Wow.

[reddishh]

Coincidentally today I received the ODA's economic report for dentistry. Literally 30 pages of doom and gloom. To summarize - its bad and it is going to get worse.

 

One point I found interesting: California is thought of as being over saturated, and yet it has fewer dentists per capita than any Canadian province. There are 65% more patients per dentist in California vs. Ontario. Wow.

 

and interestingly, I saw someone from the SDN post that when things get worse in the States, they are all planning on practicing here in Canada..

 

Not many people realize how bad this field looks and will look in Canada. Even Canadian people sometimes think we're getting paid a lot. lol

[Dr. Jan Intor]

u have a link for that report? It'd be good to take a look at it

[Ostracized]

u have a link for that report? It'd be good to take a look at it

 

I have a print version. The 2012 report has not yet been posted on the ODA website but it will at some point and ill post a link when it is.

[DDSDMD]

[Ostracized]

Here is the report. Sorry for the crappy file sharing website - click the second download button.

 

http://www.2shared.com/document/vG_yabTp/ODA_EconomicReport_2012_FINAL_.html