"Dentistry is NOT what everyone tells you"

[reddishh]

Here is the report. Sorry for the crappy file sharing website - click the second download button.

 

http://www.2shared.com/document/vG_yabTp/ODA_EconomicReport_2012_FINAL_.html

 

wow, it's not looking good at all indeed.

 

But more importantly, I don't think it will get any better in the future. So practicing in the US will be an option for some of us?

[charmer08]

Here is the report. Sorry for the crappy file sharing website - click the second download button.

 

http://www.2shared.com/document/vG_yabTp/ODA_EconomicReport_2012_FINAL_.html

 

I'm curious, why should the demand for dental care decrease when insurance pays for their dental care?

[Ostracized]

I'm curious, why should the demand for dental care decrease when insurance pays for their dental care?

 

1) Not everyone has insurance.

2) Most insurances come with co-pays. A crown will still cost most insured people $500 out of pocket.

[reddishh]

1) Not everyone has insurance.

2) Most insurances come with co-pays. A crown will still cost most insured people $500 out of pocket.

 

do you think it also has to do with the fact that more dental products (not just tootbrush, toothpaste) are sold in stores? Because they make people visit their dentist less frequently.

[pickley]

One thing to consider is that a Dentist practicing in the US can't just start practicing in Canada with the snap of their fingers. They first would have to pass the Canadian exams...which would take a lot of studying for Dentists who have been out of school for several or decades of years. Also, for a US Dentist to practice in Canada they would either have to open a practice in Canada or get a job at a Canadian office...neither of which are easy tasks these days. No matter what happens, Dentistry will still be an appealing field for you as long as you're going into Dentistry for the right reasons.

[koft]

Here is the report. Sorry for the crappy file sharing website - click the second download button.

 

http://www.2shared.com/document/vG_yabTp/ODA_EconomicReport_2012_FINAL_.html

 

I always love those ODA report...

Rules #1 on stats, (92% of stats are made up or manipulated)

Rules #2 never trust stats

 

Questions: How did they calculate FTE on dentists. How did they define that? work total of 40 hrs/wk? Number of active registrants? etc.

 

Questions: How did they track DDS income? From CCRA? is it individual salary or incorporated amount?

 

ODA and CDA are lobby group for Dentists, Just like OMA and CMA for physicians. They will try to manipulate stats to lobby funding etc from government.

 

Anyways, Dentistry is not for everyone. but you won't be poor, but not mega rich, just comfortable with some nice toys.

[DDSDMD]

I always love those ODA report...

Rules #1 on stats, (92% of stats are made up or manipulated)

Rules #2 never trust stats

 

Questions: How did they calculate FTE on dentists. How did they define that? work total of 40 hrs/wk? Number of active registrants? etc.

 

Questions: How did they track DDS income? From CCRA? is it individual salary or incorporated amount?

 

ODA and CDA are lobby group for Dentists, Just like OMA and CMA for physicians. They will try to manipulate stats to lobby funding etc from government.

 

Anyways, Dentistry is not for everyone. but you won't be poor, but not mega rich, just comfortable with some nice toys.

 

hey koft i pmed you! (i didn't want to hijack this thread)

[reddishh]

So it's a general consensus that nowadays it's hard to earn $20k a month as a part-time general dentist. And it's extremely hard to find a full time position after you graduate dental school unless you want to work in rural areas.

 

It's also become very difficult to open your own practice (that's after 5+ years of practice as general dentist) since there are too many dental offices in most areas already and with a depression in economy, banks won't lend you a large amount of money easily. Also, your chance of going bankrupt is higher bc of those factors. So people won't try to open their practice as much because it's become a risky thing to do lately.

 

So unless you really really enjoy dealing with people's teeth, you shouldn't consider entering this field. Also, you shouldn't expect to easily earn a lot of money by becoming a dentist. Maybe it was possible until a few years back, but not anymore. And it will only get worse.

 

I obviously want to be very optimistic, but it's also very important to be realistic and not misleading some pre-dents with wrong info/ideas. Choosing your career is very important, but I've seen so many people entering this field without knowing all these facts. Also, some students just go to dental school for money and later realize they can't deal with people's teeth + it won't bring them as much money as they thought it would. This will happen to you if your only reason to become a dentist is money.

 

Also, dental schools are really expensive ($400K+ if you study abroad) so entering d-school without even knowing the outlook of dentistry+ whether you love this field is a huge risk.

 

So you have to make sure you REALLY love dealing with someone's teeth and not enter dental school thinking you will earn a lot of money afterwords. It's not like there's many options as in medical school, so you will defnitely be looking at someone's teeth for a long period of time and you must be comfortable in doing so. You should also try to shadow some dentists and hear what they think about this field and its outlook.

[itoothache]

+ 1

 

I want to just add a little.

 

When you are working at a dental office, the total time of working with teeth is less than half of the time unless you have 3+ ops running at the same time.

 

What I am trying to say is that you must like (be able) to work with people. In this "people" list, it includes your assistants, hygienist, associates, partners and patients.

[Singer]

yes, paying of those student loans is a big question for every recent graduate.

 

i do have friends who are recent graduates and are working in major cities like vancouver, toronto, calgary. they are making over $170k to $250K before taxes, however, they work weekends and evenings and most of them work at two different offices at least. their biggest complain is that most of their weekends are spent at dental offices in malls; however, they are satisfied with their lifestyle. i honestly don't know what kind of lifestyle they are talking about especially if they are working 6 days a week and sometimes late evenings.

 

for new graduates with enormous debts (> 300k), small towns are the way to go.

 

i'll give you my opinion as a dentist working in a small town in alberta 1.5 hrs away from a major city:

Pros:

- Mon to fri, no evening, no weekends, there is option to work weekends if you want.

- cheap cost of living, virtually no commute time, no parking issues, friendly people and a great sense of community.

- can go to major city on weekends for shopping, socializing, etc. as it is only an hour drive.

- Money: just by doing basic dentistry (extractions, restorations, a few endos here and there, very few crowns) you can easily rake in over 200K before taxes as an associate. start doing fancy stuff like impacted wisdom teeth, cerec, bridges, implants and you can go over 350K before taxes. Own your own practice and you can gross $700k+ before taxes and after overhead.

- Learning: you will encounter variety of challenging cases and you will be the go to person to solve these problems as there is no other specialist in town for a referral. you learn a lot. I haven't done hygiene in small town. You might have to do hygiene in big cities like vancouver.

 

Cons:

- if you are single, good luck finding another single person to mingle with. your relationship status on facebook will likely stay single if you live in a small town.

- if you have a spouse, they may not like living in a small town.

- if you are attached to your ethnic culture, you might get bored in a small town, and when i say bored, that would be an understatement.

- if you are close to your friends and families who live far away, your loneliness factor will increase 10 folds.

 

I have lived in major cities and after living in a small town, i probably wouldn't want to live in a big city because i prefer not to waste time commuting, paying parking, paying high rent/house cost, etc..

 

overall, you can make big money ($170k plus before taxes as an associate) in major cities like vancouver calgary toronto, but you are looking at long working hours, weekend hours and late evening hours.

 

I have been a dentist for 15 years and have never seen it as competitive and demoralizing as a pofession than the past two years. I am also a parttime clinical instructor at UBC. I have my own private practice in a suburb of Vancouver. Dentistry is no longer a profession that serves the needs of the public. It is now considered a profession with low ethics. CBC marketplace report is typical of a chain run practice in Vancouver. I feel bad for kids graduating from dental school today in Vancouver. Chains have taken over dentist123.com owns over 52 offices and they are expanding. They get leases in prime spots by outbidding the regular dentist, they outbid practices for sale by hundreds of thousands of dollars, thus skyrocketing the price of existing practices. How is a young grad going to have their own practice? They can't. Young grads are forced to associate for these chains and are often paid 30-35% , work long hours weekends, evenings. These chains advertise constantly on the radio. They have search engines that have ad words that redirect patients looking for your name to their practice. They also have a chain of orthodontists now and will be expanding to other specailities soon. The number of complaints to the College of Dental Sutrgeons is at all time high. These practices are like puppy mills - they trench mouths, max out plans , do not do work in the best interests of the patient. Normaly in a typical dental office the practice grows as the patient returns. Not in these practices, they're business model is to keep getting new patients in order to meet their financial goals. All is not lost, I would say 90% of the indepedent solo practitioner is honest and looks after the best interest of the patient. I would recommend going to a smaller town outside a larger city to pay off student debt, hone up your skills, better quality of life. One person cant be allowed to own 50+++ practices beacuse they're setting up the profession for managed care. In the US dentists work for nothing in managed care. Also in Vancouver it often makes more sense to associate than own because of the astronomical cost to own a practice ie sometime 1-2x that of gross production. Try to find a senior independent dentist that is older and become an associate with the eventaulity of buying the practice. Dont work for a chain office - you will waste your time and in the end regret it. Hopefully the College of Dental Suregons is addressing this soon. Also do the profession good. Always strive to do the best possible work with integrity and honesty. Patients will come back to you and word of mouth is the best practice builder. If you do this, you will have a very successful practice and rewarding career. If you are in it soley for the money, there are other careers which are more tailored to suit that ie banking, investment, real estate not dentistry. Good luck

[coolestdentist]

something is brewing

[coolestdentist]

just want to add some thoughts...

 

HONESTLY, no job is really what everyone tells you. Of course you always hear about your friends friend who makes $xxxxxxxxxx doing this or that...

 

think about it... in conversation is anyone ever going to feel the need to tell you about their friend who just finished his/her eng degree and is making $35,000/year 60 hours/week right out of school, NOPE

 

The other day I met a dentist who was a year out of dental school and she said the money she's been making far surpassed her expectations. She's very happy

 

I know dentists who do procedures for free or at a HUGE discount not to increase their patient base but because they don't mind the work Love helping people and don't need the extra money.

 

I know dentists who are stressing, trying to make ends meet... but they are awkward and work very SLOWLY

 

I also know dentists who make over a $million a year...

 

The fact is that this career is very dynamic and "exciting" - just like ANY business you need to have the right combination of factors in order to make it BIG

 

If you don't think you can run a business, go into medicine and specialize... seriously you'll be glad you did!

 

people are worried that those Americans are going to come steal our patients, but they should think this through (currently only 9% of dentists in the Can are foreign trained) I don't think most Americans would be willing to give up the warmer weather to come make more money here in Canada, just like most of the Canadian dentists aren't willing to give up the city live to make more in a rural community... also these Americans would need to pass Canadian boards examinations which would be petty difficult for those who have been out of school for a while. ALSO, according to some credible sources I've heard that most American schools wouldn't prepare a student well for Canadian boards exams anyways (a reason why those hoping to come back to Canada should be selective with their school choices)

 

people say that more dental schools are opening up and the amount of dentists being produced is increasing unnecessarily... I think these people miss that fact that the population is increasing VERY RAPIDLY ... since 2000 Canada's pop. has increased by 4.5 million!! (32 million in the US). According to service canada the projected (2011-2015) dentist growth rate will be 1.3% which is on par with the current pop. growth rate...

 

Another thing... some of you say that dentistry isn't what it used to becuase of the poor economy, but i don't think this argument is relevant to this thread; practically every job in the country is effected by the economic conditions, this isn't dentistry specific

 

The current national average yearly income is $137,000, which is very respectable considering only 39.4% of dentists work full-time... Dentists are fine!

 

Am I right?!

[Ostracized]

 

people say that more dental schools are opening up and the amount of dentists being produced is increasing unnecessarily... I think these people miss that fact that the population is increasing VERY RAPIDLY ... since 2000 Canada's pop. has increased by 4.5 million!! (32 million in the US).

 

Am I right?!

 

I don't want to be a constant Debbie Downer but the growth rate of dentists is 250% the growth rate of the general population - at least in Ontario.

[coolestdentist]

I don't want to be a constant Debbie Downer but the growth rate of dentists is 250% the growth rate of the general population - at least in Ontario.

 

hey i edited my post. check it!

[uncooling]

I have been a dentist for 15 years and have never seen it as competitive and demoralizing as a pofession than the past two years. I am also a parttime clinical instructor at UBC. I have my own private practice in a suburb of Vancouver. Dentistry is no longer a profession that serves the needs of the public. It is now considered a profession with low ethics. CBC marketplace report is typical of a chain run practice in Vancouver. I feel bad for kids graduating from dental school today in Vancouver. Chains have taken over dentist123.com owns over 52 offices and they are expanding. They get leases in prime spots by outbidding the regular dentist, they outbid practices for sale by hundreds of thousands of dollars, thus skyrocketing the price of existing practices. How is a young grad going to have their own practice? They can't. Young grads are forced to associate for these chains and are often paid 30-35% , work long hours weekends, evenings. These chains advertise constantly on the radio. They have search engines that have ad words that redirect patients looking for your name to their practice. They also have a chain of orthodontists now and will be expanding to other specailities soon. The number of complaints to the College of Dental Sutrgeons is at all time high. These practices are like puppy mills - they trench mouths, max out plans , do not do work in the best interests of the patient. Normaly in a typical dental office the practice grows as the patient returns. Not in these practices, they're business model is to keep getting new patients in order to meet their financial goals. All is not lost, I would say 90% of the indepedent solo practitioner is honest and looks after the best interest of the patient. I would recommend going to a smaller town outside a larger city to pay off student debt, hone up your skills, better quality of life. One person cant be allowed to own 50+++ practices beacuse they're setting up the profession for managed care. In the US dentists work for nothing in managed care. Also in Vancouver it often makes more sense to associate than own because of the astronomical cost to own a practice ie sometime 1-2x that of gross production. Try to find a senior independent dentist that is older and become an associate with the eventaulity of buying the practice. Dont work for a chain office - you will waste your time and in the end regret it. Hopefully the College of Dental Suregons is addressing this soon. Also do the profession good. Always strive to do the best possible work with integrity and honesty. Patients will come back to you and word of mouth is the best practice builder. If you do this, you will have a very successful practice and rewarding career. If you are in it soley for the money, there are other careers which are more tailored to suit that ie banking, investment, real estate not dentistry. Good luck

 

thanks for your input. So I think now everyone agrees lowering ur debt out of d-school is really important. I feel bad for those studying in Australia/US with $400K debt they will have once they graduate. Well, there is a reason why it's much easier to get into those schools. So I guess there's no such thing as easy route/backdoor just like in med school.

[donnadee]

just want to add some thoughts...

 

HONESTLY, no job is really what everyone tells you. Of course you always hear about your friends friend who makes $xxxxxxxxxx doing this or that...

 

think about it... in conversation is anyone ever going to feel the need to tell you about their friend who just finished his/her eng degree and is making $35,000/year 60 hours/week right out of school, NOPE

 

The other day I met a dentist who was a year out of dental school and she said the money she's been making far surpassed her expectations. She's very happy

 

I know dentists who do procedures for free or at a HUGE discount not to increase their patient base but because they don't mind the work Love helping people and don't need the extra money.

 

I know dentists who are stressing, trying to make ends meet... but they are awkward and work very SLOWLY

 

I also know dentists who make over a $million a year...

 

The fact is that this career is very dynamic and "exciting" - just like ANY business you need to have the right combination of factors in order to make it BIG

 

If you don't think you can run a business, go into medicine and specialize... seriously you'll be glad you did!

 

people are worried that those Americans are going to come steal our patients, but they should think this through (currently only 9% of dentists in the Can are foreign trained) I don't think most Americans would be willing to give up the warmer weather to come make more money here in Canada, just like most of the Canadian dentists aren't willing to give up the city live to make more in a rural community... also these Americans would need to pass Canadian boards examinations which would be petty difficult for those who have been out of school for a while. ALSO, according to some credible sources I've heard that most American schools wouldn't prepare a student well for Canadian boards exams anyways (a reason why those hoping to come back to Canada should be selective with their school choices)

 

people say that more dental schools are opening up and the amount of dentists being produced is increasing unnecessarily... I think these people miss that fact that the population is increasing VERY RAPIDLY ... since 2000 Canada's pop. has increased by 4.5 million!! (32 million in the US). According to service canada the projected (2011-2015) dentist growth rate will be 1.3% which is on par with the current pop. growth rate...

 

Another thing... some of you say that dentistry isn't what it used to becuase of the poor economy, but i don't think this argument is relevant to this thread; practically every job in the country is effected by the economic conditions, this isn't dentistry specific

 

The current national average yearly income is $137,000, which is very respectable considering only 39.4% of dentists work full-time... Dentists are fine!

 

Am I right?!

 

 

your post is very optimistic since you have not yet started your dental schooling and like most others you will probably be entering dentistry as your first real profession, correct?...i'd recommend all pre-dents to take a serious consideration of whether it'd make sense to go to Aus/US for dentistry and spend 400 grand on schooling,living...to give you guys a contrast, it is certainly possible to break the 50-60 grand margin in your first year out of a good masters program...also with an mba/eng degree (+2yrs Msc in Eng) in the right field, its possible to get into the 100 grand plus range within 3-5 yrs of working... all this with 2-3 years less education so 2-3yrs of income plus not being in the 400 grand ditch...

[CDent2010]

Let me just say that first off I read this entire thread, a lot of good points and concerns were raised and I agree with all of them.

 

A good point was raised by one of the posters above, and that is that all jobs/careers are all equally affected and with the current economic climate (which will IMO only get worse over the years) all professionals make less money. Just that fact that people are worried about Dentists not making more than 120k/year working ft is ridiculous, the average CAN salary is 33k/year and a lot of my friends can't even get a job that pays more than 30k/year with college degrees! Even if you have to work weekends/evenings to make it for the first part of your career, so what? A friend of mine, a new laywer, has to work 70hours/week as an new laywer to earn her 60k/year! That last one is a bit excessive, but this is the trend for all professions starting out.

 

I am going to do my DMD in AUS, which will cost me a lot, yes. It's not all bad that tuition is so expensive, because only people who really really want it, will be willing to go so deep in debt to achieve it. I actually want to work evenings and weekends, more time to do a job that I've always wanted to do my whole life. I'm really not a materialistic person, and don't really care about all that expensive material stuff that so many people seem to want as soon as possible like big houses/expensive cars/vacations. I'm happy, because I got accepted to dental school and I know I have my dream job - guys, look at 99% of jobs and tell me being a dentist is not awesome (let's forget all the money issues) (and I'm basing this info off many hours of shadowing and research in the field) you, as a dentist, get to: have your own patients that you take care of, call all the shots for your patients, be a boss, do surgeries, have intellectual stimulation, interact with different people every day, write prescriptions, hold a prestigious title and gain a lot of credibility in society.

 

Guys you are focusing too much on the financial aspect here (especially the guy above me, dude your whole post is like saying the only factor we should be considering when choosing a career is the financial one - which is what youll be doing your whole adult life - yes its important, but common - you'll be fine with 120k/year at the minimum), and you all are forgetting about the actual job. How many friends do you know who have boring ass jobs, sitting at a desk 10hours a day doing the same repetitive crap, getting paid garbage, no one interesting to talk to all day and working for the man who probably doesn't even know who you are, guys, most people have jobs like this. Listen, I was a medical receptionist for 1.5 years and have worked in medical clinics, do you have any idea of how unbalanced and how unfair the position of doctor is compared to every other job in that clinic? They get all the praise, all the thanks, all the money, all the power and patients won't respect any opinion coming from any other person. Guys, think about it, even with minimal money (which is far from it), this job is awesome. If you think of that reality, and think of life as a Dentist from the day to day, you will quickly realize that we are REALLY LUCKY to be dentists/future dentists, regardless of how big our paychecks are... unless you only want money from being a dentist...then you're screwed

 

EDIT: I take back my last sentence, if your really want to be rich as a Dentist, do like a lot of dentists do and INVEST your money! Never compromise patient care for more money and keep the money making in the investment field (btw, the dentist123.com chain story really made me sick to my stomach, healthcare is not fastfood). So there you have it, make your less fat than before dentist paychecks and invest that money to make more money, everybody wins.

[uncooling]

Let me just say that first off I read this entire thread, a lot of good points and concerns were raised and I agree with all of them.

 

A good point was raised by one of the posters above, and that is that all jobs/careers are all equally affected and with the current economic climate (which will IMO only get worse over the years) all professionals make less money. Just that fact that people are worried about Dentists not making more than 120k/year working ft is ridiculous, the average CAN salary is 33k/year and a lot of my friends can't even get a job that pays more than 30k/year with college degrees! Even if you have to work weekends/evenings to make it for the first part of your career, so what? A friend of mine, a new laywer, has to work 70hours/week as an new laywer to earn her 60k/year! That last one is a bit excessive, but this is the trend for all professions starting out.

 

I am going to do my DMD in AUS, which will cost me a lot, yes. It's not all bad that tuition is so expensive, because only people who really really want it, will be willing to go so deep in debt to achieve it. I actually want to work evenings and weekends, more time to do a job that I've always wanted to do my whole life. I'm really not a materialistic person, and don't really care about all that expensive material stuff that so many people seem to want as soon as possible like big houses/expensive cars/vacations. I'm happy, because I got accepted to dental school and I know I have my dream job - guys, look at 99% of jobs and tell me being a dentist is not awesome (let's forget all the money issues) (and I'm basing this info off many hours of shadowing and research in the field) you, as a dentist, get to: have your own patients that you take care of, call all the shots for your patients, be a boss, do surgeries, have intellectual stimulation, interact with different people every day, write prescriptions, hold a prestigious title and gain a lot of credibility in society.

 

Guys you are focusing too much on the financial aspect here (especially the guy above me, dude your whole post is like saying the only factor we should be considering when choosing a career is the financial one - which is what youll be doing your whole adult life - yes its important, but common - you'll be fine with 120k/year at the minimum), and you all are forgetting about the actual job. How many friends do you know who have boring ass jobs, sitting at a desk 10hours a day doing the same repetitive crap, getting paid garbage, no one interesting to talk to all day and working for the man who probably doesn't even know who you are, guys, most people have jobs like this. Listen, I was a medical receptionist for 1.5 years and have worked in medical clinics, do you have any idea of how unbalanced and how unfair the position of doctor is compared to every other job in that clinic? They get all the praise, all the thanks, all the money, all the power and patients won't respect any opinion coming from any other person. Guys, think about it, even with minimal money (which is far from it), this job is awesome. If you think of that reality, and think of life as a Dentist from the day to day, you will quickly realize that we are REALLY LUCKY to be dentists/future dentists, regardless of how big our paychecks are... unless you only want money from being a dentist...then you're screwed

 

EDIT: I take back my last sentence, if your really want to be rich as a Dentist, do like a lot of dentists do and INVEST your money! Never compromise patient care for more money and keep the money making in the investment field (btw, the dentist123.com chain story really made me sick to my stomach, healthcare is not fastfood). So there you have it, make your less fat than before dentist paychecks and invest that money to make more money, everybody wins.

 

CDent2010, I appreciate your optimism, but I think it's important not to exaggerate anything which may mislead pre-dents here.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how many pre-dents who want to apply to dental schools apply because they purely love looking at someone's mouth for 8 hours a day. I mean one of the nicest thing about this field was having a secured and high paying job. I'm pretty sure this was one of the driving forces to those applying to dentistry. So it's important to point out to pre-dents that after you graduate, you will be expected to work couple of part-times, and possibly weekends/evenings. One of the advantages of being a dentist over a physician was having a more relaxed schedule with strict hours--> better life style (this was always one of the points made in dentistry vs. medicine debates few years ago here in premed101 or other forums).

 

However, nowadays, you can't even find any full-time job in most cities as a general dentist, and you have to find couple of part-time jobs with some evening/weekend hours as well. I presume this will only get worse in the future, if not the same. So there aren't many reasons why dentistry is a better option than medicine anymore. And this is why so many students now switch their passion to medicine from dentistry.

 

 

You said you would be very happy to be working fulltime including evenings and weekends, because you're doing your dream job. But have you done any yet? If I'm not mistaken, you just entered 1st year of dental school, so you have no idea what it's like to be working full-time (evening/weekeds) as a dentist yet. So your points are not valid. The opinions made by current dentist are more valid I would say. (like "Singer" who has been working for the past 15 years and some dentists I've shadowed who have been dentists for 20 years) Most of the dentists I've shadowed said they first liked the job, but it's getting really tiring, and they sometimes wish they went to medical school and became a specialty in medical fields. Some recent graduates I've talked to also said they kind of regret they didn't go to medical school.

 

I mean, here we're talking about a profession that has the HIGHEST suicidal rates, and you can't just simply say "oh, we get paid more than most jobs, so don't complain!" There's a reason why this job has a high suicidal rate.

 

I'm glad you really love this profession and you entered the school for the right reason even though it's really expensive lol. If you went to Australia, you'll be in debt for $300K+ when you graduate, which is not very fun. But at least, you said you WANT to work evenings and weekends so that's a good thing. But you can't really say this because you haven't done any practice as a dentist, can you?

 

 

As the title of this thread says: "Dentistry is not what everyone tells you"

 

So you should make a wise decision when it comes to choosing dentistry as your career especially for those thinking of studying abroad for dentistry. Paying $300K for tuition alone for dentistry has become such a risky thing to do these days.

[Mighty Molar]

Many successful dentists told me "half of Dentistry is business" I guess having an entrepreneur mind would be necessary, not to loot the patients, but to operate the clinic efficiently.

[future_doc]

Like medicine, business decisions are required in a timely manner, including carrying on your practice tax efficiently.

[CDent2010]

CDent2010, I appreciate your optimism, but I think it's important not to exaggerate anything which may mislead pre-dents here.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how many pre-dents who want to apply to dental schools apply because they purely love looking at someone's mouth for 8 hours a day. I mean one of the nicest thing about this field was having a secured and high paying job. I'm pretty sure this was one of the driving forces to those applying to dentistry. So it's important to point out to pre-dents that after you graduate, you will be expected to work couple of part-times, and possibly weekends/evenings. One of the advantages of being a dentist over a physician was having a more relaxed schedule with strict hours--> better life style (this was always one of the points made in dentistry vs. medicine debates few years ago here in premed101 or other forums).

 

However, nowadays, you can't even find any full-time job in most cities as a general dentist, and you have to find couple of part-time jobs with some evening/weekend hours as well. I presume this will only get worse in the future, if not the same. So there aren't many reasons why dentistry is a better option than medicine anymore. And this is why so many students now switch their passion to medicine from dentistry.

 

 

You said you would be very happy to be working fulltime including evenings and weekends, because you're doing your dream job. But have you done any yet? If I'm not mistaken, you just entered 1st year of dental school, so you have no idea what it's like to be working full-time (evening/weekeds) as a dentist yet. So your points are not valid. The opinions made by current dentist are more valid I would say. (like "Singer" who has been working for the past 15 years and some dentists I've shadowed who have been dentists for 20 years) Most of the dentists I've shadowed said they first liked the job, but it's getting really tiring, and they sometimes wish they went to medical school and became a specialty in medical fields. Some recent graduates I've talked to also said they kind of regret they didn't go to medical school.

 

I mean, here we're talking about a profession that has the HIGHEST suicidal rates, and you can't just simply say "oh, we get paid more than most jobs, so don't complain!" There's a reason why this job has a high suicidal rate.

 

I'm glad you really love this profession and you entered the school for the right reason even though it's really expensive lol. If you went to Australia, you'll be in debt for $300K+ when you graduate, which is not very fun. But at least, you said you WANT to work evenings and weekends so that's a good thing. But you can't really say this because you haven't done any practice as a dentist, can you?

 

 

As the title of this thread says: "Dentistry is not what everyone tells you"

 

So you should make a wise decision when it comes to choosing dentistry as your career especially for those thinking of studying abroad for dentistry. Paying $300K for tuition alone for dentistry has become such a risky thing to do these days.

 

Uncooling you make some good points and I think you are right. I do not object to the fact that a lot of people apply to this profession for the good lifestyle/income, it's not a bad motivation at all. What I was trying to say is that these last factors are weighted as too important compared to their day to day life in the job, which is in IMO a very underestimated factor for satisfaction and happiness is one's career.

 

I might be a unique case in this since 1) I will have only about 200k of debt after AUS dental school since my I am very fortunate that my family will be giving me lots of help - which is about the same debt load a regular CAN dental student will have; 2) I really get into the things I do, almost obsessively, in undergrad I regularly did 12-15 hrs days of studying, extracurics, sports, etc, and I loved it, I love being busy all the time all day every day - I guess you could say I'm a workaholic, I love the rush of being busy and constantly challenged, constant people interaction, and get bored really easily and hate relaxing and vacation. So you see that I am not normal lol, but you can see now why this doesn't bother me.

 

You are right in saying that I can't really say I've worked as a dentist evenings and weekends, but knowing my personality this won't bother me at all, and in fact I know that family life is not for me and I will much rather be at work than having 3-4 hours of free time at home.

 

So you are right in saying that my example should not be used to hype up pre-dents, because it is not a normal case, if you are like me this will not bother you- but most aren't like me.

 

I just think that its unfortunate that people are always trying to maximize lifestyle/pay while minimizing effort when choosing a career, because IMO a job should mean much more than that, it should be your identity you know.

 

In any case, I can see why people would want to now go from Dental-> medicine. I also have a big interest in medicine like most dental students, that is why I want to mix both and do a GPR to be qualified for hospital dentistry. Ideally I would want a pt job at a private office (which is probably what will be offered anyway, with messed up hours) and pt doing hospital/emergency hospital dentistry working with physician colleges on more "medical" cases. Yes this combo will not maximize my profits and will have very unusual hours, but you can see why this will not bother me.

 

To pre-dents I would say follow your heart but it's hard when this world has so much financial pressure and it's not easy to know if you like something without being able to do it. I would say more, think of what you would love to get up to every morning - do each day, what type of responsibilities do you want? what range of income? what working hours? what type of lifestyle? what type of work do you want to do? are you people oriented? do you enjoy taking care of people? etc. I would say your career would have to come from a balance of all these answers.

[Ostracized]

It's excellent to have an optimistic attitude. I'm debt free 6-months after graduation and yet I am ever the pessimist. The best advice is don't try to work in a big city. Go as far as you can from big cities and you'll be fine.

 

Edit: I should specify that I went to a Canadian school, lived at home, had some family tuition support and some inheritance, and that I still live home. No one should plan on being debt free within 6 months.

[DDSDMD]

how much are new grads expected to make in rural areas???

[MacStudent]

Let me just say that first off I read this entire thread, a lot of good points and concerns were raised and I agree with all of them.

 

A good point was raised by one of the posters above, and that is that all jobs/careers are all equally affected and with the current economic climate (which will IMO only get worse over the years) all professionals make less money. Just that fact that people are worried about Dentists not making more than 120k/year working ft is ridiculous, the average CAN salary is 33k/year and a lot of my friends can't even get a job that pays more than 30k/year with college degrees! Even if you have to work weekends/evenings to make it for the first part of your career, so what? A friend of mine, a new laywer, has to work 70hours/week as an new laywer to earn her 60k/year! That last one is a bit excessive, but this is the trend for all professions starting out.

 

I am going to do my DMD in AUS, which will cost me a lot, yes. It's not all bad that tuition is so expensive, because only people who really really want it, will be willing to go so deep in debt to achieve it. I actually want to work evenings and weekends, more time to do a job that I've always wanted to do my whole life. I'm really not a materialistic person, and don't really care about all that expensive material stuff that so many people seem to want as soon as possible like big houses/expensive cars/vacations. I'm happy, because I got accepted to dental school and I know I have my dream job - guys, look at 99% of jobs and tell me being a dentist is not awesome (let's forget all the money issues) (and I'm basing this info off many hours of shadowing and research in the field) you, as a dentist, get to: have your own patients that you take care of, call all the shots for your patients, be a boss, do surgeries, have intellectual stimulation, interact with different people every day, write prescriptions, hold a prestigious title and gain a lot of credibility in society.

 

Guys you are focusing too much on the financial aspect here (especially the guy above me, dude your whole post is like saying the only factor we should be considering when choosing a career is the financial one - which is what youll be doing your whole adult life - yes its important, but common - you'll be fine with 120k/year at the minimum), and you all are forgetting about the actual job. How many friends do you know who have boring ass jobs, sitting at a desk 10hours a day doing the same repetitive crap, getting paid garbage, no one interesting to talk to all day and working for the man who probably doesn't even know who you are, guys, most people have jobs like this. Listen, I was a medical receptionist for 1.5 years and have worked in medical clinics, do you have any idea of how unbalanced and how unfair the position of doctor is compared to every other job in that clinic? They get all the praise, all the thanks, all the money, all the power and patients won't respect any opinion coming from any other person. Guys, think about it, even with minimal money (which is far from it), this job is awesome. If you think of that reality, and think of life as a Dentist from the day to day, you will quickly realize that we are REALLY LUCKY to be dentists/future dentists, regardless of how big our paychecks are... unless you only want money from being a dentist...then you're screwed

 

EDIT: I take back my last sentence, if your really want to be rich as a Dentist, do like a lot of dentists do and INVEST your money! Never compromise patient care for more money and keep the money making in the investment field (btw, the dentist123.com chain story really made me sick to my stomach, healthcare is not fastfood). So there you have it, make your less fat than before dentist paychecks and invest that money to make more money, everybody wins.

 

+1, truer words have never been spoken.

[loops]

CDent2010, I appreciate your optimism, but I think it's important not to exaggerate anything which may mislead pre-dents here.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how many pre-dents who want to apply to dental schools apply because they purely love looking at someone's mouth for 8 hours a day. I mean one of the nicest thing about this field was having a secured and high paying job. I'm pretty sure this was one of the driving forces to those applying to dentistry. So it's important to point out to pre-dents that after you graduate, you will be expected to work couple of part-times, and possibly weekends/evenings. One of the advantages of being a dentist over a physician was having a more relaxed schedule with strict hours--> better life style (this was always one of the points made in dentistry vs. medicine debates few years ago here in premed101 or other forums).

 

However, nowadays, you can't even find any full-time job in most cities as a general dentist, and you have to find couple of part-time jobs with some evening/weekend hours as well. I presume this will only get worse in the future, if not the same. So there aren't many reasons why dentistry is a better option than medicine anymore. And this is why so many students now switch their passion to medicine from dentistry.

 

 

You said you would be very happy to be working fulltime including evenings and weekends, because you're doing your dream job. But have you done any yet? If I'm not mistaken, you just entered 1st year of dental school, so you have no idea what it's like to be working full-time (evening/weekeds) as a dentist yet. So your points are not valid. The opinions made by current dentist are more valid I would say. (like "Singer" who has been working for the past 15 years and some dentists I've shadowed who have been dentists for 20 years) Most of the dentists I've shadowed said they first liked the job, but it's getting really tiring, and they sometimes wish they went to medical school and became a specialty in medical fields. Some recent graduates I've talked to also said they kind of regret they didn't go to medical school.

 

I mean, here we're talking about a profession that has the HIGHEST suicidal rates, and you can't just simply say "oh, we get paid more than most jobs, so don't complain!" There's a reason why this job has a high suicidal rate.

 

I'm glad you really love this profession and you entered the school for the right reason even though it's really expensive lol. If you went to Australia, you'll be in debt for $300K+ when you graduate, which is not very fun. But at least, you said you WANT to work evenings and weekends so that's a good thing. But you can't really say this because you haven't done any practice as a dentist, can you?

 

 

As the title of this thread says: "Dentistry is not what everyone tells you"

 

So you should make a wise decision when it comes to choosing dentistry as your career especially for those thinking of studying abroad for dentistry. Paying $300K for tuition alone for dentistry has become such a risky thing to do these days.

 

That is completely false, in fact more physicians commit suicide than dentists. This myth has been propagated since the 1930s.

 

 

The profession is absolutely fine, a certain level of debt is healthy. 400k in debt can be managed if you make rational decisions (coming from alberta helps too).