Toronto - MAM or downtown?

[Big Bird]

Which is better and why? Any downtown meds wish they were at MAM? Any of the MAMily wish they were downtown?

[ACHQ]

Neither campus is "better" than other per say because in the end we get the same EXACT lectures, tests, labs, tutorials, seminar, PBL etc... and the curriculum is the EXACT same. Also just because you are at one campus or the other doesn't mean you can't attend the other one (e.g. MAMer's at St. George and vice versa). The only two things you have to stay in your groups for are PBL, ASCM (clinical skills), and DOCH tutorials (community health course), and ethics seminars (which are mandatory). (Oh and St.George people can't use the anatomy labs at MAM for security reasons)

 

In terms of whether you should choose the St. George campus or the Mississauga campus comes down to personal preference/convenience. Choose it based on whether you want to be downtown or whether you would rather not be downtown and be in Mississauga.

 

That being said MAM gets some sweet perks (candies, t-shirts hahaha) and have a super sweet new building (MSB is old and moldy).

 

I'm at St. George btw (and to answer your question no I wouldn't rather be at MAM, not because of anything inherently due to MAM, but because for me it is more convenient being downtown).

[jerr]

Neither campus is "better" than other per say because in the end we get the same EXACT lectures, tests, labs, tutorials, seminar, PBL etc... and the curriculum is the EXACT same. Also just because you are at one campus or the other doesn't mean you can't attend the other one (e.g. MAMer's at St. George and vice versa). The only two things you have to stay in your groups for are PBL, ASCM (clinical skills), and DOCH tutorials (community health course), and ethics seminars (which are mandatory). (Oh and St.George people can't use the anatomy labs at MAM for security reasons)

 

In terms of whether you should choose the St. George campus or the Mississauga campus comes down to personal preference/convenience. Choose it based on whether you want to be downtown or whether you would rather not be downtown and be in Mississauga.

 

That being said MAM gets some sweet perks (candies, t-shirts hahaha) and have a super sweet new building (MSB is old and moldy).

 

I'm at St. George btw (and to answer your question no I wouldn't rather be at MAM, not because of anything inherently due to MAM, but because for me it is more convenient being downtown).

 

Thanks for the info!

 

I'm definitely down for MAM simply due to convenience; candies and tees sound good too.

[ACHQ]

Also I forgot to mention. That just because you are at a certain academy (MAM is its own academy) doesn't mean you can't end up doing rotations at the other hospitals in clerkship. For your core rotations you pretty much stick to your academy (and even some of these rotations like family and peds are centrally matched), but in 4th year you get electives which you can do anywhere.

[Philtrum]

A question for the ages..actually since 2 years ago.

 

IMPORTANT: MAM or St. George...degree is University of Toronto. Period. No ifs ands or butts. For some reason people think you will get a UTM degree at MAM..lol UTM degree doesnt even exist. MAM is simply on the UTM property but like ACHQ said, everything is EXACTLY the same, just the physical location is different.

 

For those who love Downtown toronto, (Like myself)..it doesnt matter whether u are at MAM or downtown. The GO bus here is about 20-35 minutes (35 if traffic) and goes to union. MAM students have free shuttle bus service from UTM to hart house (st. george) and back. Comes about every 15 minutes. it can also take from 25 minutes to one hour (longest it took me) at 5pm.

 

Something I would consider is this. ALL 4 academies have INCREDIBLE hospitals. You dont get any great advantage at any of them, but you get a great experience at all. However what MAM does have is two hospitals which aren't lines up with clerks, residents, fellows etc. So you get very close one on one with the doctors themselves and so you see things very much first hand, with the doctor along side. No hierarchy to go through. Just a cool perk that will disappear maybe 5-10 years into the future. THis is just due to the fact that TGH or Sunnybrooke have been situated with UofT longer, therefore more residents clerks, and fellows being present there, in your way of the doctor

 

All in all, you wont notice the difference in availability of opportunities. MAM is one of the first ever institutions in canada that did not need an accreditation visit two years after opening (something which is unheard of). Thats how much time and effort has gone into making a perfect system, and there is nothing lacking about it.!

 

Oh and MAM has a SICK community.

[jerr]

TL;DR of the thread: all 4 academies are great, but MAM edges out slightly?

[Philtrum]

I dont think any academy takes the edge. If you think otherwise, you have a superiority complex haha. Unique perks..yes. Find them out!

[bee723]

Does anyone who goes to MAM live downtown, or would that be too arduous of a commute?

[Philtrum]

Theres at least 8 of us at MAM who live downtown. ALL of them commute to class everyday. Its amazing! Theres also a couple from Burlington, and Etobicoke.

[ACHQ]

Does anyone who goes to MAM live downtown, or would that be too arduous of a commute?

 

Although there are people who do it, I personally wouldn't. The commute could be anywhere from 30 min to an hour depending on the traffic (and even weather). I feel like time is important and so I don't want to be stuck in traffic or have a long commute, when I can do other things that are more productive (or fun)

[quackster]

A question for the ages..actually since 2 years ago.

 

IMPORTANT: MAM or St. George...degree is University of Toronto. Period. No ifs ands or butts. For some reason people think you will get a UTM degree at MAM..lol UTM degree doesnt even exist. MAM is simply on the UTM property but like ACHQ said, everything is EXACTLY the same, just the physical location is different.

 

For those who love Downtown toronto, (Like myself)..it doesnt matter whether u are at MAM or downtown. The GO bus here is about 20-35 minutes (35 if traffic) and goes to union. MAM students have free shuttle bus service from UTM to hart house (st. george) and back. Comes about every 15 minutes. it can also take from 25 minutes to one hour (longest it took me) at 5pm.

 

Something I would consider is this. ALL 4 academies have INCREDIBLE hospitals. You dont get any great advantage at any of them, but you get a great experience at all. However what MAM does have is two hospitals which aren't lines up with clerks, residents, fellows etc. So you get very close one on one with the doctors themselves and so you see things very much first hand, with the doctor along side. No hierarchy to go through. Just a cool perk that will disappear maybe 5-10 years into the future. THis is just due to the fact that TGH or Sunnybrooke have been situated with UofT longer, therefore more residents clerks, and fellows being present there, in your way of the doctor

 

All in all, you wont notice the difference in availability of opportunities. MAM is one of the first ever institutions in canada that did not need an accreditation visit two years after opening (something which is unheard of). Thats how much time and effort has gone into making a perfect system, and there is nothing lacking about it.!

 

Oh and MAM has a SICK community.

 

Residents and fellows are doctors too. And are expected and valuable contributors to your learning as well. The staff is not the only person obligated to teach. In fact, resident teaching is regarded to be superb in Toronto, and most fellows are found to be some of the best teachers. Many fellows in Toronto are fully trained and experienced physicians from other countries, in Toronto to do some specialized training. These are AMAZING people to learn from, and should not be viewed as an obstacle to your learning. To boot, it's probably a good thing to have so many different people around to work with, because it increases the chance you'll find someone you work well with, as opposed to being stuck with a person you don't quite mesh with.

 

As much as I want to believe that MAMers will have the same experience as downtowners during clerkship, I'm a skeptic.

 

Doing clerkship at downtown hospitals gives you opportunity to work with the faculty who know medical students - what their competency levels should be, what is expected of them, how to motivate them to do better, challenge them, and get them on the right track. I want to know that I'm learning as I should to become a competent (and hopefully excellent!) doctor, and I rely on my preceptors to ensure that that happens. Reference letters matter HUGE for CaRMS. How is Dr. So-and-So at Trillium who has not supervised many trainees in their career, going to be able to credibly make statements like "functions like an R1", or "is in the top 10% of students I have ever had on my service" which are the statements programs are looking for in letters?

 

Downtown gives you the opportunity to work with faculty who sit on residency admissions committees (for UofT, of course). That faculty's letter will mean more, and they'll be able to talk you up at the table come decision time. I don't know that any MAM attendings are being brought onto these committees, at least not yet. Nevermind, they are having trouble convincing people to teach out there...Maybe having Dr. Morra out there will change that, but I don't see a transition like that happening overnight, let alone in the fashion in which it's intended.

 

I hate to be the devil's advocate, but I'm not buying into it just yet. Would I have taken a spot at MAM if it's what I was offered? Damn straight I would have. But I'd be worried. It's a bit of a shame the 1T5s are guinea pigs in all of this. Preclerkship has been fairly seamless, but clerkship is a much, much different ballgame. Hopefully, my fears will be found to be, well, unfounded, but only time will tell!

[dpirrel]

Any insight on Fitz vs. W-B?

[YaMed]

I've always found it strange why people can be a "skeptic" of MAM. Toronto is NOT the first medical school to have a satellite campus.

 

And in your 4th year, you can do your rotations anywhere you want anyway.

[quackster]

I've always found it strange why people can be a "skeptic" of MAM. Toronto is NOT the first medical school to have a satellite campus.

 

And in your 4th year, you can do your rotations anywhere you want anyway.

you're right, Toronto isn't the first medical school to have a satellite campus. I can't speak to other schools, but Toronto's clerkship curriculum isn't ideal to allow for some of the problems I mention to be minimized or addressed. In 4th year, it's cutting it close to get reference letters. You're on electives September to December; CaRMS apps are due smack in the middle there. In that period, you're not getting a letter from any core rotation preceptor, only elective preceptors. Sure, you need letters from your electives, but people are looking for letters from core preceptors - these people knew you the longest (6-8 weeks) and have seen you develop within a rotation.

 

The other difference is that many other satellite campuses, GENERALLY speaking, exist to recruit doctors into family medicine, and practice in more rural areas. This is not the case for MAM. Mississauga is the sixth (?) largest city in Canada. Couple that with the culture at U of T that is specialty and academically driven, students are aspiring to competitive specialties in competitive programs, probably moreso than in other schools' satellite campuses because of U of T culture (which is a discussion for another day!). Historically, U of T graduates the lowest percentage of its class to family medicine which is a testament to this culture. This is a general statement of course, I'm sure someone will tell me anecdotal stories about so and so who matched to derm, or plastics or ENT from a satellite campus. There are always going to be people that shine and those that bust their asses harder because of circumstance to shine, and I suspect people at MAM will have to be the latter.

 

Agree to disagree, I'm a skeptic.

[Pineapple6]

Just some food for thought, not meant to start an argument:

 

1) MAM will be going downtown for 25% of their rotations in 3rd year, especially in rotations such as surgery where the majority of positions are downtown. There are also rotations in certain hospitals that are available to all academies, e.g. Paeds at Sick Kids.

 

2) MAM physicians have been receiving clerks for the past 7 years already, and there are also special training workshops as part of Faculty Training for writing reference letters for senior medical students.

 

3) The whole idea that you need a reference letter from particular people in order to get into a competitive subspeciality is nearly obsolete. If a member of the board knows you, they won't be able to participate in your admissions at all, and frankly, having a form letter from a well-known physician really won't get you anywhere anyway.

 

4) I agree that we get a lot more attention from our teachers and physicians, especially in our Clinical Skills. We also have the benefit in 1st year of always having the same mentors every week, which allows them to track our progress and help us improve our skills. Some sites downtown had different preceptors every week in 1st year, and some found it to be irritating. In 2nd year, subspeciality weeks are taught by physicians within that specialty.

 

5) Besides the commuting for anatomy labs, we actually commute a lot less because all of our seminars and PBLs are in our beautiful HSC, and we don't have to go to different hospitals.

 

6) Doing research downtown is a great experience which many MAMers did last year. Approximately 75% of us did research last summer, and the majority of those people went downtown for it. It's very doable.

 

Being someone who likes living in a more peaceful setting, I can see pros and cons to both campuses. I choose no preference campus-wise and am very happy to be at MAM.

 

Hope that helps!

[lost__in__space]

Just food for thought for anyone in the MD/PhD boat, you aren't allowed to be at MAM if you accept our program!

[mew2alakazam]

Speculations, skeptics, whatever. I doubt U of T will screw up the MAM clerkship.

 

For now, just watch the video:

http://www.md.utoronto.ca/partners/academies.htm

 

Then again, this video isn't particularly helpful either... you will see "bread-and-butter" cases and attend "specialized clinics" at ANY academy. Besides, you are not restricted to shadowing at only the hospitals associated with your academy.

[catlover235]

Would it be possible to be a student at MAM but elect to do rotations downtown TO in 3rd and 4th? If so, do you need to be in Mississauga often in 3rd and 4th year? Would it be realistic to live in downtown TO in 3rd and 4th year? Thanks!

[ACHQ]

Would it be possible to be a student at MAM but elect to do rotations downtown TO in 3rd and 4th? If so, do you need to be in Mississauga often in 3rd and 4th year? Would it be realistic to live in downtown TO in 3rd and 4th year? Thanks!

 

In clerkship 3rd year is where we have our core rotations. I'm not 100% sure about how it is for MAM, but most of the rotations would be done at your home academy, i.e. in Mississauga for people at MAM (it does seem from what someone said earlier, some rotations like surgery can be done downtown). That being said there are other rotations I know (e.g. family, and peds) that can be done at various locations.

 

In 4th year we have our electives. You can do those ANYWHERE.

 

With all that being said, don't expect to be able to get rotations to be mostly downtown if you choose MAM. Even people at WB and Fitz aren't always downtown for ALL their rotations (e.g. but for the most part they are).

 

I can't really comment on traveling from downtown to Mississuaga and vice versa during clerkship.