U of T Med with high McMaster grads

[Victor Donovan]

Looking at the current year stats, almost half of the University of Toronto Medical school's 2018 students are from McMaster. Is there a reason for this? Also, for students who got accepted, what did you do for undergrad; life or health science?

 

Cheers,

Victor

[nervousnellie]

Mostly health science and arts and science

 

[asdasdasd]

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[cleanup]

If you want to be groomed for a professional health career you go to medsci at McMaster.

[Victor Donovan]

33 minutes ago, KeyzerSoze said:

Why is this any surprise? Most of them obviously came from health sciences. The best premed program feeds the best med school.

Not doubting the fact that its a good program, its just that there are so many good health science/biomed programs in Ontario (Queens, Western, Ottawa, Waterloo) but McMaster seems to hold 40% of all their new med students. My other thought was that wouldn't most McMaster grads rather go into McMaster medical school?

[Victor Donovan]

23 minutes ago, cleanup said:

If you want to be groomed for a professional health career you go to medsci at McMaster.

Its a pretty good program for sure but Hamilton just seems like such a letdown (personal opinion) location wise. I've visited a few times and it was very empty and industrial. Got a wierd abandoned city feeling lol (maybe somewhere for retired people) especially compared to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal.

[NeuroD]

1. It's just because health sci students make up a large proportion of most medical schools at least in Ontario. Nothing special about Toronto.

2. Health sci is most definitely not the best Pre-Med program. Unless you're measuring by the number of applicants that get into medical school, in that case, then yes. Health science is the best program at playing the pre-med game and building your application in a way that increases your chances. But it's not superior in terms of health education.

[cleanup]

17 minutes ago, VictorLin0725 said:

Its a pretty good program for sure but Hamilton just seems like such a letdown (personal opinion) location wise. I've visited a few times and it was very empty and industrial. Got a wierd abandoned city feeling lol (maybe somewhere for retired people) especially compared to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal.

I work in Hamilton two days a week. It's on the up-and-up. It's no Toronto or Montreal but it has a great food scene.

And McMaster itself as a school has a much greater sense of community than U of T ever will. Trust me on that one.

I loved my time at U of T but that was largely because of Toronto itself, not because of the school. You have to decide which one's more important to you.

[cleanup]

14 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

2. Health sci is most definitely not the best Pre-Med program. Unless you're measuring by the number of applicants that get into medical school, in that case, then yes. Health science is the best program at playing the pre-med game and building your application in a way that increases your chances. But it's not superior in terms of health education.

The grand majority of people going into healthsci understand undergrad is largely just a stepping stone to get into med school. Also the definition of 'superior health education' is pretty fluid. I'd argue that going into a programme where everyone has a similar focus, can rally around you for support and cameraderie and in all likelihood are all future colleagues is pretty great. Who cares if the learning isn't as intensive as other programmes. I'd argue that's a plus for the most part. Med school and residency is where you truly learn; healthsci is just a 3-4 year vacation where you figure out how to make it happen with all your future doctors.

I say this entirely biased as a U of T lifesci grad who spent 4 years in hell. 

[Victor Donovan]

3 minutes ago, cleanup said:

The grand majority of people going into healthsci understand undergrad is largely just a stepping stone to get into med school. Also the definition of 'superior health education' is pretty fluid. I'd argue that going into a programme where everyone has a similar focus, can rally around you for support and cameraderie and in all likelihood are all future colleagues is pretty great. Who cares if the learning isn't as intensive as other programmes. I'd argue that's a plus for the most part. Med school and residency is where you truly learn; healthsci is just a 3-4 year vacation where you figure out how to make it happen with all your future doctors.

I say this entirely biased as a U of T lifesci grad who spent 4 years in hell. 

What medical school are you in now?

[cleanup]

17 minutes ago, VictorLin0725 said:

What medical school are you in now?

I'm not. I went to undergrad then dental school at U of T and I've been in private practice for coming up on 3 years now. U of T dentistry is filled with healthsci grads as well.

[NeuroD]

52 minutes ago, cleanup said:

The grand majority of people going into healthsci understand undergrad is largely just a stepping stone to get into med school. Also the definition of 'superior health education' is pretty fluid. I'd argue that going into a programme where everyone has a similar focus, can rally around you for support and cameraderie and in all likelihood are all future colleagues is pretty great. Who cares if the learning isn't as intensive as other programmes. I'd argue that's a plus for the most part. Med school and residency is where you truly learn; healthsci is just a 3-4 year vacation where you figure out how to make it happen with all your future doctors.

 I say this entirely biased as a U of T lifesci grad who spent 4 years in hell. 

What I mean is that they don't develop any greater knowledge of the fundamentals of health or science lol. 
The program IS a boon, of course...it's better at getting people into medical school that any other program. But being good at getting into med school is a game that is separate from actual education.

In fairness, this comes from a guy who loved his U of T lifescience, but then did a PhD at Mac where I often tutored health sci.

[asdasdasd]

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[Victor Donovan]

56 minutes ago, cleanup said:

I'm not. I went to undergrad then dental school at U of T and I've been in private practice for coming up on 3 years now. U of T dentistry is filled with healthsci grads as well.

Ah ok gotcha. Thanks for the insight

[Victor Donovan]

7 minutes ago, KeyzerSoze said:

Increasing your chances of getting into med school is exactly what I meant. I'm at Western med sci and I've no doubt in my mind that we learn more "science" than mac health sci students, but there's no way we get all the intangible skills needed in the application process (ECs, reference letters, interview skills) that healthi sci students do.

What advantages doe mac health sci have in terms of ECs, Reference letters, and interview skills? Do they provide extra help in those areas?

[NeuroD]

39 minutes ago, VictorLin0725 said:

What advantages doe mac health sci have in terms of ECs, Reference letters, and interview skills? Do they provide extra help in those areas?

Guidance, networking, opportunities, and lots of time to make use of them.

[NeuroD]

39 minutes ago, VictorLin0725 said:

What advantages doe mac health sci have in terms of ECs, Reference letters, and interview skills? Do they provide extra help in those areas?

Guidance, networking, opportunities, and lots of time to make use of them.

[cleanup]

3 hours ago, PhD2MD said:

What I mean is that they don't develop any greater knowledge of the fundamentals of health or science lol. 
The program IS a boon, of course...it's better at getting people into medical school that any other program. But being good at getting into med school is a game that is separate from actual education.

In fairness, this comes from a guy who loved his U of T lifescience, but then did a PhD at Mac where I often tutored health sci.

I know what you meant. My point is that it doesn't matter much. To be frank, I think your professional education and any training in residency, fellowship, etc. is magnitudes more important than undergrad. There's really no reason for undergrad to exist other than for some folks to 'figure shit out' and maybe develop some study skills & social skills, or find a way to grade people and rank them. Otherwise if professional school is the horizon, the actual knowledge (fundamentals of health & science as you mentioned) gained during undergrad is nominal at best. It just doesn't matter that much. You could really cram all of the actual useful knowledge into a year or two of study.

[Edict]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:32 PM, VictorLin0725 said:

Not doubting the fact that its a good program, its just that there are so many good health science/biomed programs in Ontario (Queens, Western, Ottawa, Waterloo) but McMaster seems to hold 40% of all their new med students. My other thought was that wouldn't most McMaster grads rather go into McMaster medical school?

They do as well, but also many McMaster grads are from the GTA and would like to do medical school in Toronto. All in all though I think the % of Mac Med that comes from McMaster is similar around 40%. 

[Edict]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:35 PM, VictorLin0725 said:

Its a pretty good program for sure but Hamilton just seems like such a letdown (personal opinion) location wise. I've visited a few times and it was very empty and industrial. Got a wierd abandoned city feeling lol (maybe somewhere for retired people) especially compared to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal.

For undergrad, i think the city really doesn't matter much. I agree that Hamilton is a bit of a letdown (albeit improving, but at a place slower than Toronto). However, there are actually benefits to moving away for undergrad and oftentimes going to a smaller city where you are almost forced to hang around and interact with your classmates is a positive thing. I think this is the reason so many people go to Queens, Western, Mac for university as well, you grow more than if you were to hang around where you are from or in a huge bustling city that can feel overwhelming. School spirit definitely is inversely related to how big of a city you are in. 

Once you hit medical school/residency, i think many people look to move back to where they came from. 

Additionally, the connections built from health sci are equivalent to the connections you build from medical school. Those health scis who go to medical school often have the largest social networks within medicine, so that can be an advantage as well.