U of T Med Students: Opinions on quality of education?

[Guest derzornhistology]

Dear UofT Students,

 

I asked a number of questions in the 'Dartmouth versus UofT' thread pertaining to your impressions of the quality of a UofT medical education. The thread was closed when my character was impugned by some truculent posters. In jest, I introduced a liar's paradox on behalf of my opponent, and somehow nobody could invalidate it (they could only scoff and call me names). Nevertheless, I do think some aspects of the altogether commensurable quantities - a UofT medical education versus a tier 1 US medical education - were ignored. Being that the aforementioned conversation has been locked, I wondered if UofT students might be willing to peruse those questions and answer them here. I would prefer not to hear from premeds or certain self-impressed high-school students, as I feel they have done a sufficient job of inveighing against me. I am much obliged to you for your assistance.

_________________

 

SPQR

[Guest peachy]

Derzorn,

 

I edited the title of your thread to reflect the actual topic. That thread had degenerated to the point where it was unlikely that med students were going to read through all the arguments to respond, and this thread isn't going to become a continuation of that.

 

For those interested in responding to the questions Derzorn is referring to, they are:

 

That said, may I ask current UofT med students what they thought of the first year curriculum? Are you happy at UofT? Is the administration looking after you - helping you reach career goals? How cohesive is the class? How competitive do you feel it will be to get into the Canadian residency programs you want? How available are your professors? Thanks.

[Guest derzornhistology]

Peachy,

 

Thank you kindly. I like your new title, but want to point out that the purpose of my questions is ultimately to make a choice between US schools and UofT. I'm certain many UofT students believe, as I do, that UofT is the finest school in the country; nevertheless, I aim to get honest appraisals of the school presuming an international competition.

 

__________________________

Senatus Populusque Romanus

[Guest studentz]

You brought up faculty to student ratio in your previous post. I believe UofT has the largest faculty of any medical school in North America, and is certainly near the top. Keep in mind that virtually every physician posted to one of the (8?) teaching hospitals has some type of affiliation with the medical school.

 

As for comparisons with tier 1 US schools, I imagine it would be difficult as it is unlikely that any Toronto student has experienced medical school in the US in any capacity other than 4th year electives. Go to the torontomeds site, click on the prospective applicant section and read the FAQ. It addresses many of your questions, albeit without comparisons to US schools.

[Guest physiology]

Hello Derzornhistology,

 

After reading through your posts, is it natural for you to use such language? I commend you for wonderful choice of diction (no sarcasm), but I think you'd get more responses if you just toned it down to regular-day, colloquial vernacular?

 

You don't have to prove anything on an EZboard.

 

But, if you really do talk like this all the time, then, so be it. Just be yourself, and if this is indeed really you, then so be it. I can accept that, and I retract my above statement.

[Guest derzornhistology]

The clinical faculty is very large. In total, there are 1,655 full-time and 2,122 other faculty members in the clinical departments. - bul.med.utoronto.ca/accreditation/ISSS FINAL complete links active 2004 03 11.pdf

 

the Faculty is part of a network of nine fully-affiliated and eleven partially-affiliated teaching hospitals - bul.med.utoronto.ca/accreditation/ISSS FINAL complete links active 2004 03 11.pdf

 

I have already seen the page you mentioned, Studentz, and I am not certain that it has related both sides of the story.

 

Also, the first citation in this post mentions that UofT is in the top decile of research funding for North American medical schools. That means that there are a number of schools with greater research capacity - probably coupled with a smaller student body.

 

Furthermore, schools like Mayo, Harvard, Cornell, Hopkins, Mt. Sinai - right on down to Dartmouth and the University of Rochester - all have faculty: student ratios at or above 3:1. UofT has 3777 faculty (full and part time). Unless there are just 1259 medical faculty students, the UofT ratio is lower. I haven't the time to search for the combined number of faculty of medicine students - especially as it is not readily found off the main website; I would, however, appreciate the efforts of others to find this figure.

 

Finally, I do not believe that a UofT student needs to have experienced a US education in order to make statements about whether he/she would have preferred to attend a school with better access to profs/smaller class size/different curriculum or teaching style. Also, comments on the past learning preferences of students would be useful, since we all seem to think that PBL or didactic learning can be 'coped with' in spite of different proclivities.

 

I want to hear from students about whether it is worth it to suffer a PBL curriculum (or traditional curriculum) if one or the other is not your first choice (and your school selection bears more prominently on such kitsch as 'prestige' and 'research funding' that you never plan on tapping into). Thanks.

 

____________

 

SPQR

[Guest Ollie]

Unless there are just 1259 medical faculty students, the UofT ratio is lower. I haven't the time to search for the combined number of faculty of medicine students - especially as it is not readily found off the main website; I would, however, appreciate the efforts of others to find this figure

 

In the undergraduate medical program there are somewhere between ~190-200 students per year (it varies depending on the comings and goings of MD/PhD students). So there are around 800 undergraduate medical students. I have no idea how many postgraduate (aka residents) there are. I also don't know if the ratios you are referring to include postgrads or not, so you might want to confirm that.

 

You have lots of questions about the curriculum, and it's great that you are so carefully evaluating your choices. Were you not able to get satisfactory answers to these questions at your interview? With only 3 weeks left in the term, we're all pretty busy, and might not get a chance to give you the detailed answers you're looking for. Take a look through old posts and see if you can find some more info.

[Guest cheech10]

the first citation in this post mentions that UofT is in the top decile of research funding for North American medical schools. That means that there are a number of schools with greater research capacity

 

From a speech by the dean today, UofT is the number one publicly funded school internationally in terms of number of publications and number of citations per annum. When privately funded schools are included, it drops to third: only Harvard and Hopkins surpass it. So there are a number of schools with greater research capacity: 2 worldwide.

 

I am not aware of the faculty : student ratios at UofT versus other schools, but I would caution that one has to compare similar ratios in this instance: does the number of students include graduate students (MSc and PhD candicates) in health related fields (biochemistry, immunology, etc.)?

[Guest derzornhistology]

...only Harvard and Hopkins surpass [uofT]. - Cheech10

 

Apparently the University of Washington and UPenn get more NIH funding than Johns Hopkins (See usnews rankings). I cannot say whether other private sources are concomitantly higher, but it seems to me dubious as to whether your claim -and Dean Naylor's? - is true (about there being only two better-funded institutions).

 

As for your remarks pertaining to faculty:student ratio, I am in complete agreement. I assume that a figure which conforms to the USnews standard can be reached. However, this may be a quite laborious enterprise.

 

Please note that I assent when you say that UofT is a world-class school. I am wary, though, when I am bombarded with pros. The clear explication of negative aspects of the school would lend significant credence to arguments in favour of UofT.

 

Keep in mind Frank Iacobucci's remarks regarding UofT's financial situation. Point to the loss of star researchers like Josef Penninger to Europe - and the leakage of other luminaries to institutions like the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo and Harvard. Tell me about the cons at UofT so that I can weigh them against the cons in certain stateside institutions.

 

I have found students in the States to be quite open about the deficiencies in their schools. If you're trying to tell me you go to a perfect school (superficialities aside), you must surely understand why I am incredulous. Thanks again for your help.

 

_______________________

 

Si vis pacem, para bellum

[Guest CTU24]

I have found students in the States to be quite open about the deficiencies in their schools. If you're trying to tell me you go to a perfect school (superficialities aside), you must surely understand why I am incredulous.

 

Wow, that's a first!!! Usually, us UofTers are criticized for being too negative, so I'm glad to see some school pride emerging. I'm about to go to bed so I'll quickly throw out some potential negative for others to comment on:

 

weak pharmacology program, too much time in lectures and not enough time to take advantage of U of Ts research opportunities, too many Ottawa Senator Fans, DOCH (community health) is too much theory and not enough practice, clerkship rotations are not 100% complete before CARMS.

 

That's my short list for now. The good news is that many of these weaknesses have been identified by students and the recent accreditations report, so lots of changes are in the works soon.

 

Good luck with your decision,

 

CTU24

[Guest wattyjl]

Point to the loss of star researchers like Josef Penninger to Europe

 

i doubt it was purely money that did this. my understanding was that there were some personality conflict/career conflict issues. Mak stayed. that's not firsthand info though, so who knows.

[Guest cheech10]

My argument was not about funding, but rather about productivity: specifically Medline publications and citations per year.

[Guest medeng]

Point to the loss of star researchers like Josef Penninger to Europe

 

Just to confirm wattyjl's comments, I don't have first hand info (ie I wasn't a student of either of them) but I was in the dept. at the time and knew students in their labs, and I can say pretty confidently that this was not based on funding.

[Guest Sunmoonandstar]

Hmmm... other PMH or IMM alums here? I heard the same things. Interesting.

[Guest studentz]

Be careful when interpreting NIH funding quotes in the US News. Harvard's apparently includes funding for all of it many, many affiliated hospitals and research institutes. Also, the numbers can fluctuate because they include one-time NIH funding for capital expediture such as the $100 million bioterrorism lab at Boston U, which alone gave the school a huge jump in the rankings.

 

I don't see how research funding:student body is relevant to our discussion of "quality of education".

 

Where US schools trump all Canadian schools is in the availability of research experiences for med students. I suspect this has to do with the close relationship between the number of CARMS spots each year and the number of graduating med students, but Canadian schools generally don't permit student to take another year for research and simply do not have the same amount of time within the various curricula to do research. In this country, most students get some time in the summer, and that's it. Penn has a minimum 12 week scholarly activity block, Duke's entire third year is devoted to this (clerkship starts in 2nd year), Stanford students pick an area of concentration and take grad courses in the area with longitudinal research throughout the years etc. These do not require students to use their elective blocks for research. American schools also have many more opportunities for students to pursue joint degrees. Nearly every top US school will allow students to extend the program to 5 years to do research, or take time between 3rd and 4th year to do a MPH or something. For the record, there are many more residency spots in the US than there are graduating US med students. I don't know how it's done down South, but there is a trend there to do the basic sciences in 1.5 years or sometimes 1 year, while still having less class time than is common here. US schools seem to have much more innovative curricula. There you go OP, some pros for the top US schools. What schools are you comparing Toronto to, if you don't mind? I've said that there are 4 US schools I would take if I had the opportunity (this includes both admission and $) over any here: Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, Penn.

 

Isn't Penninger still cross-appointed with UofT's medical biophysics dept.?

[Guest moo]

I can vouch for the fact that many many students take a year or more off to do other scholarly activities. I would say about 30-40 people in my class are taking a year off to do research. Most often this is done between years three and four but some people do it between years two and three. Some are doing it here, some at another institution, some are off to the NIH, others are doing it even in another country. I also have classmates who are taking a year off just to travel, or to take a break, or for whatever reason.

 

All the talk about PBL and how innovative it is really isn't. PBL is incorporated into almost every school here in some form or another. With the exception of a few, most schools have reduced class time. I don't think I was ever in class past noon for three days of the week in the first two years. THe other two days I was always done by 3. But with that said, the first two years of med school can be learned anywhere. You can go to the Caribbean and learn what you need to know the first two years. You can stay at home and read Moore, Netter, Harrisons, etc. and not even go to class if you want.

[Guest studentz]

The US has a lot of $ for that. There are NIH and Howard Hughes 1 year awards for med students I believe. The residency spots:graduating seniors ration in Canada handcuffs schools because variable numbers of studets would choose to take a year off in any given academic year, which could result in a CaRMS shortage the following year. There are thousands of "extra" residency spots in the US each year.

 

I guess MD/PhD programs are also much better supported in the US. One of UofT's documents prepared for the LCME review pointed out that many top recruits go to the US because they get free tuition plus a $20K+ stipend there. The document said Toronto was trying to approach that in as many cases as possible. Apparently a third of the class at WUSTL is MSTP and the school pays all interview expenses including 5 star hotel. But Washington has endless money.

[Guest endingsoon]

My argument was not about funding, but rather about productivity: specifically Medline publications and citations per year.

 

You have to look at quality vs. quantity when you talk about publications. Who are the biggest names in Canada? Sackett, Guyatt and Yusef do not belong to UofT, and although they might not publish as many articles, they get them into major impact factor journals. Mac is by far the centre for evidence based medicine, so if you are looking for clinical research, then Mac is your best school.

 

UofT is so productive based soley on the basic science research, which most of us are not going to be doing anymore. So, in terms of clinical research opportunities, we are by no means 3rd in the world...we aren't even 1st in Canada!

 

To add to what most people have already said, the UofT curriculum is far from perfect. There are some good courses (ie - FMP) but most of pre-clerkship is an excerise in old-school mentality, just cram knowledge down your throats until you want to vomit.

 

In contrast, clerkship was great. The best part is that we have no manadtory rural rotations, so you never have to leave home if you don't want to. As well, you get a nice mix of community and academic hospitals, and the core rotations (med/surg) are pretty well done. Still, some exams are just insane (ie - surgery) and others a joke (ie - obsgyn) so the way they evaluate us is still a little bit out to lunch. All in all though, clerkship is a big plus for UofT.

[Guest derzornhistology]

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter... For example, many US schools' pre-clerkship curricula involve less class time - where that class time is largely supererogatory. On the other hand, UofT has great clerkship opportunities; this, owing to its many affiliations.

 

If we can agree on the most important factors for choosing a school, then we are in a position to directly compare a several schools. That's what I need, guys - so please weigh in on this rudimentary list:

 

In no particular order:

a) enjoyable pre-clerkship (since the material is the same everywhere)

broad clerkship opportunities

c) opportunity to form relationships with professors (for learning or careerism PRN)

d) opportunities to do research or joint degrees

e) the school's ability to get you to the residency program you want

f) preferred location (city, rural, US, Canada)

 

What do you think? Thanks

 

______

 

SPQR

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Mac is by far the centre for evidence based medicine, so if you are looking for clinical research, then Mac is your best school.

Just wondering: how are you defining "centre for evidence based medicine" and on what are you basing the claim that Mac is the best school for clinical research? Yes, Sackett is housed within the walls of McMaster, and he is the father of the concept of "evidence based medicine" but this does not necessarily mean that McMaster is the centre for evidence based medicine and thus, the best school for clinical research.

 

By definition, evidence based medicine is the practice of medicine using guidelines or approaches derived from clinical evidence. Arguably, if you'd like to study the methodology of how clinical evidence may be applied to shape the practice of medicine and any theory or philosophy regarding that application, then McMaster may certainly be your venue. However, I cannot see how this translates into McMaster being the best school for clinical research. That is, the development of the concept of evidence based medicine and its associated philosophies is quite different from the actual research activities involving patients, the results of which are ultimately used to generate the corpus of medical evidence.

 

Presumably, the best school for clinical research might be that which generates the greatest clinical research productivity. It is possible that McMaster conducts more clinical research than UofT, and generates more clinical publications, but given the relatively large catchment area of UofT-affiliated hospitals relative to those of McMaster, given the relatively large number of UofT medical faculty relative to McMaster, as well, the large proportion of UofT faculty involved in clinical research, I would guess that UofT might be the larger producer of clinical research and hence, one of the better schools within which to find clinical research resources, productivity and opportunity.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Valani9]

To the guy/girl deciding on a med school:

 

(this is just my opinion, based on my experiences)

 

When you're choosing a school, I think you need to simplify it a bit - you're asking a lot of questions, and it's hard to sum up all those factors into one answer.

 

For me, there were two basic factors - location, and quality of undergraduate education. Location was a no-brainer - I wanted to live in a big city.

 

In terms of education - you want the place that will teach you the basics of medicine in the best possible way. From everything I've seen and heard, it's the smaller centres that do this the best. The docs give you more attention, you get more hands-on experience, your class is smaller, etc.

 

The advantages of big centres (i.e. research, diverse subspecialties) - those things will be useful to you when you are a resident and a doctor. They don't mean much to you when you're learning the fundamentals of medicine - like learning to listen for murmurs, etc.

 

I remember when I was choosing a school, I used to wish I could take Western or Queen's, and put it in downtown Montreal or Toronto......

[tarzi]

Now we are getting to the meat of the matter... For example, many US schools' pre-clerkship curricula involve less class time - where that class time is largely supererogatory. On the other hand, UofT has great clerkship opportunities; this, owing to its many affiliations.

 

If we can agree on the most important factors for choosing a school, then we are in a position to directly compare a several schools. That's what I need, guys - so please weigh in on this rudimentary list:

 

In no particular order:

a) enjoyable pre-clerkship (since the material is the same everywhere)

broad clerkship opportunities

c) opportunity to form relationships with professors (for learning or careerism PRN)

d) opportunities to do research or joint degrees

e) the school's ability to get you to the residency program you want

f) preferred location (city, rural, US, Canada)

g) peer cooperation

h)administration/faculty CARE for their students

 

What do you think? Thanks

 

______

 

SPQR

 

Good god, this guy has already started TWO threads about this - asking very simply answers and the only things people respond with are U of T's funding and the tuition --> I too would like to know the answers to his questions b/c I did my undergrad at U of T and if the medical school is anything like their undergraduate science program - UToronto can go to h*ll.

 

Thus far, I have emailed administrators and deans for Toronto's medical school with some very legitimate concerns - no responses from the deans. generic impersonal responses from the admin staff. given that i know a good chunk of the class is from U of T undergrad, that i know the faculty, and I know UToronto's "teaching culture" - I'm currently willing to pay triple the amount in tuition and living costs to attend a US school.

 

Unless I can discover that U of T medicine has:

 

A) Faculty, residents, and attendings at the "almighty UHN hospitals" sincerely CARE about the education of 3rd and 4th year med students

 

the administration and deans are DOWN TO EARTH AND APPROACHABLE people who CARE for the students

 

C) the faculty and school over is very encouraging of the med students to pursue joint degrees, research, or to explore different specialities (i.e., BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ALLOW STUDENTS TO SHADOW THEM AND MENTOR THEM ABOUT THEIR FIELD)

 

D) STUDENTS ARE COLLABORATORS RATHER THAN COMPETITORS

 

I can't see myself going here - even though my family is in TO. So, U of T med students who are in 4th year - where are you??? These are important questions!!!

[degoo_]

You'll always hear these things about UofT though. I think they even enjoy playing up this image. All in all though, at the end of the day, I think that UofT is still the best. You may have to struggle more, but the opportunities/distinction are there in the end.

 

10 reasons to go to UofT: http://www.torontomeds.com Although obviously heavily biased, I think a lot of it is true.

[degoo_]

A) Faculty, residents, and attendings at the "almighty UHN hospitals" sincerely CARE about the education of 3rd and 4th year med students

 

I think its difficult to get this. The UHN hospitals are too concerned with other things (I'm told from ppl in UofT meds). I hope someone says otherwise, cause its a main worry of mine.

[tarzi]

You'll always hear these things about UofT though. I think they even enjoy playing up this image. All in all though, at the end of the day, I think that UofT is still the best. You may have to struggle more, but the opportunities/distinction are there in the end.

 

10 reasons to go to UofT: http://www.torontomeds.com Although obviously heavily biased, I think a lot of it is true.

 

are you a senior utoronto med students? if so, please give ur opinions!