U of T Med Students: Opinions on quality of education?

[tarzi]

A) Faculty, residents, and attendings at the "almighty UHN hospitals" sincerely CARE about the education of 3rd and 4th year med students

 

I think its difficult to get this. The UHN hospitals are too concerned with other things (I'm told from ppl in UofT meds). I hope someone says otherwise, cause its a main worry of mine.

 

yes, a main concern of mine too - as i have learned from many senior students that the first two years are really not important - basic science is basic science.

 

the most important years in med school are your clinical years - if you are stuck doing mostly useless scut work like drawing blood, picking up lab reports, running from lab to lab to pick up and deliver x-rays, or simply observing - this is NO good.

 

a good clinical education is one where the residents and attendings let the med students do procedures, etc...

 

we need to find out what the clinical years at toronto are like - b/c if it's mostly shadowing with residents/attendings too stuck up/busy to care about us, then forget u of t. b/c there are other schools that have WAY more research opportunities and "rare cases" (which are NOT important for you to develop your skills as a clinician - clinical skills are important for residency, NOT exposure to rare cases) and that also provide excellent clinical education during 3rd and 4th years.

[Ollie]

Good god, this guy has already started TWO threads about this - asking very simply answers and the only things people respond with are U of T's funding and the tuition --> I too would like to know the answers to his questions b/c I did my undergrad at U of T and if the medical school is anything like their undergraduate science program - UToronto can go to h*ll.

 

Thus far, I have emailed administrators and deans for Toronto's medical school with some very legitimate concerns - no responses from the deans. generic impersonal responses from the admin staff. given that i know a good chunk of the class is from U of T undergrad, that i know the faculty, and I know UToronto's "teaching culture" - I'm currently willing to pay triple the amount in tuition and living costs to attend a US school.

 

Unless I can discover that U of T medicine has:

 

A) Faculty, residents, and attendings at the "almighty UHN hospitals" sincerely CARE about the education of 3rd and 4th year med students

 

the administration and deans are DOWN TO EARTH AND APPROACHABLE people who CARE for the students

 

C) the faculty and school over is very encouraging of the med students to pursue joint degrees, research, or to explore different specialities (i.e., BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ALLOW STUDENTS TO SHADOW THEM AND MENTOR THEM ABOUT THEIR FIELD)

 

D) STUDENTS ARE COLLABORATORS RATHER THAN COMPETITORS

 

I can't see myself going here - even though my family is in TO. So, U of T med students who are in 4th year - where are you??? These are important questions!!!

 

Here are my answers:

 

A. yes

B. yes

C. yes

D. yes

 

And I would be curious as to what lead you to think any of this wasn't the case. Why the interrogative tone of the posts and the reviving a year-and-a-half-old thread?

[tarzi]

my undergrad experience at toronto wasn't the greatest - i just naturally assumed that since the uhn hospitals were large tertiary centres, plus the large class size, large faculty number - that the teaching culture of the med school was the same as undergrad - NOT supportive and encouraging.

 

but now that you answered yes to all four questions - i feel better about toronto and will actually hope that i get an interview, then look into it more during the interview day...thanks for your answers!

 

well - in my heart, i really want to stay in toronto - but not if the educational experience will be cut-throat and impersonal like undergrad. i'm just trying to find out if it's worth the 3x tuition of US med schools over Toronto.

 

I didn't mean to sound interrogative! just need some honest insight into Toronto.

[degoo_]

tarzi- no, I'm not even in meds yet. I'm just a senior. I have spoken with many UofT students/graduates, and the response is mixed. Those who want to do research are loving it (as I mentioned, endless opportunities at UHN). Some others mentioned those things you did.

 

I hope the clerkships are really involved and go beyond observation. I really like UofT's structure though (as per that website I posted above). They said that patient contact begins right from year one.

[Kirsteen]

I hope the clerkships are really involved and go beyond observation. I really like UofT's structure though (as per that website I posted above). They said that patient contact begins right from year one.

Hey there,

 

Take heart: when I recently completed a surgical elective at UofT there was more hands-on surgical experience there than at any of the other centres where I spent elective time. In fact, numerous times per day or week I was first assisst on many procedures since there were so many surgeons operating and so few residents and fellows to help. From my point of view, as well as that of some of the current UofT (Surgical) residents, there is plenty of hands-on experience.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[0T6]

Sometimes its not all about the institution, but what you do with what the institution gives you. I went to UT for undergrad too and unlike the majority of people, I truly enjoyed my time there.

 

And now in med school, (speaking about Ottawa but the situation is likely similar at UT), we have the options of doing clinical elective and thats something I heavily exercised from day 1. I was doing H&Ps in clinics by 3rd month of med school. I have classmates who have done NO electives though and they're fine with that. Will that make me a better doctor? I dont think so.. I might be a bit ahead when clerkship starts but we all have to pass the same exams and same OSCEs before residency.

 

So yah, UT's a great school with amazing resources and clinicans.. but it's also a big centre which might put some obstacles in the way of getting some of the exposure you might want, but that doesn't make it impossible. Good luck with applications and your decisions.

[nowai]

my undergrad experience at toronto wasn't the greatest - i just naturally assumed that since the uhn hospitals were large tertiary centres, plus the large class size, large faculty number - that the teaching culture of the med school was the same as undergrad - NOT supportive and encouraging.

 

but now that you answered yes to all four questions - i feel better about toronto and will actually hope that i get an interview, then look into it more during the interview day...thanks for your answers!

 

well - in my heart, i really want to stay in toronto - but not if the educational experience will be cut-throat and impersonal like undergrad. i'm just trying to find out if it's worth the 3x tuition of US med schools over Toronto.

 

I didn't mean to sound interrogative! just need some honest insight into Toronto.

 

When you have the acceptance letters, that is the time to pick and choose. Let's not get ahead of ourselves seeing as how you're hoping to get an interview.

[studentz]

Look, I'm going to say this for the last time. The rumours that you hear about the med program at Toronto are just that.

 

a) Yes. Why would they not care about the education of students? I saw far more concerns voiced in the past by Western students about the quality of formal teaching at the Windsor campus (via the clerkship eval PDFs that were posted on the UWO website two years ago) than I have heard from clerks at UofT. The instructors I've had at Sunybrook & Women's have been phenomenal--all of them-- and many of my colleagues at the other academies rave about their instructors. We have regular evaluations of instructors, and the faculty and course directors respond almost immediately to any concerns. St. Michael's Hospital has one of the world's premiere institutes devoted to the training of teachers in medicine.

 

The admin, from Dean Whiteside to Jay R. to the Admissions Office staff to the Registrar's Office staff to the incredible Student Affairs staff are amazing. Our student affair's people know everyone's name and there is essentially open door policy for all of the aforementioned individuals. They are also very understanding and accomodating if you have personal issues that affect your ability study.

 

c) The UofT hospitals are called teaching hospitals for a reason. Go to google and look up the reason for the name change from Toronto Hospital to University Health Network. There are literally thousands of people you can shadow. As for joint degrees, this is tricky as the number of residency positions is allocated by the government so that there is a constant ratio or spots to graduates. No medical school in this country can have dozens of students pursuing joint degrees that would alter class sizes in various years as it would throw the entire match system off. This is not the case in the US, where there are generally more options for joint degrees. Having said that, the opportunities to do research, whether in the summer, through the CREMS program or internationally, are unmatched in Canada. Period.

 

d) This is the funniest one of all. How can we be competitors? Find something in the description of the pre-clerkship curriculum that would in anyway suggest that there is some benefit to competing with others in the class. You'll probably hear at another interview pseudo-urban legends like "UofT students mess around with each other's cadavers"...yeah, except for the fact we aren't marked on the dissections and everybody studies for practicals on other groups' work. The fact of the matter is that UofT has the most holistic application process in the country, and the class reflects this. Why doesn't anyone ever ask whether UWO or Queen's students are competitive when you can get an interview there simply based on GPA and MCAT scores?

 

At the end of the day, you will be flooded with rumours about UofT at your other interviews. The preoccupation with UofT exhibited by the students who hosted my interview dinner at UWO was a major turnoff for me. You have to realize that people at other schools are in absolutely no position to comment on the program or students here in the same way that I can't legitimately comment on anything at UofA for example. If you get an interview at Toronto, a) consider yourself lucky because this medical school is outstading and spend time talking with everyone from faculty to first-year hosts to the second-year students who will interview you. You will only be able to get good information about any school by speaking with people who have spent substantial time in the program.

 

There's nothing to hide here. heck, the admin even had (has?) the most recent accreditation review up on the website for public viewing.

[tarzi]

tarzi- no, I'm not even in meds yet. I'm just a senior. I have spoken with many UofT students/graduates, and the response is mixed. Those who want to do research are loving it (as I mentioned, endless opportunities at UHN). Some others mentioned those things you did.

 

I hope the clerkships are really involved and go beyond observation. I really like UofT's structure though (as per that website I posted above). They said that patient contact begins right from year one.

 

You will soon find out that all schools have this "patient contact starts in year one" claim. So this isn't a highlight of toronto's curriculum

[tarzi]

Look, I'm going to say this for the last time. The rumours that you hear about the med program at Toronto are just that.

 

a) Yes. Why would they not care about the education of students? I saw far more concerns voiced in the past by Western students about the quality of formal teaching at the Windsor campus (via the clerkship eval PDFs that were posted on the UWO website two years ago) than I have heard from clerks at UofT. The instructors I've had at Sunybrook & Women's have been phenomenal--all of them-- and many of my colleagues at the other academies rave about their instructors. We have regular evaluations of instructors, and the faculty and course directors respond almost immediately to any concerns. St. Michael's Hospital has one of the world's premiere institutes devoted to the training of teachers in medicine.

 

The admin, from Dean Whiteside to Jay R. to the Admissions Office staff to the Registrar's Office staff to the incredible Student Affairs staff are amazing. Our student affair's people know everyone's name and there is essentially open door policy for all of the aforementioned individuals. They are also very understanding and accomodating if you have personal issues that affect your ability study.

 

c) The UofT hospitals are called teaching hospitals for a reason. Go to google and look up the reason for the name change from Toronto Hospital to University Health Network. There are literally thousands of people you can shadow. As for joint degrees, this is tricky as the number of residency positions is allocated by the government so that there is a constant ratio or spots to graduates. No medical school in this country can have dozens of students pursuing joint degrees that would alter class sizes in various years as it would throw the entire match system off. This is not the case in the US, where there are generally more options for joint degrees. Having said that, the opportunities to do research, whether in the summer, through the CREMS program or internationally, are unmatched in Canada. Period.

 

d) This is the funniest one of all. How can we be competitors? Find something in the description of the pre-clerkship curriculum that would in anyway suggest that there is some benefit to competing with others in the class. You'll probably hear at another interview pseudo-urban legends like "UofT students mess around with each other's cadavers"...yeah, except for the fact we aren't marked on the dissections and everybody studies for practicals on other groups' work. The fact of the matter is that UofT has the most holistic application process in the country, and the class reflects this. Why doesn't anyone ever ask whether UWO or Queen's students are competitive when you can get an interview there simply based on GPA and MCAT scores?

 

At the end of the day, you will be flooded with rumours about UofT at your other interviews. The preoccupation with UofT exhibited by the students who hosted my interview dinner at UWO was a major turnoff for me. You have to realize that people at other schools are in absolutely no position to comment on the program or students here in the same way that I can't legitimately comment on anything at UofA for example. If you get an interview at Toronto, a) consider yourself lucky because this medical school is outstading and spend time talking with everyone from faculty to first-year hosts to the second-year students who will interview you. You will only be able to get good information about any school by speaking with people who have spent substantial time in the program.

 

There's nothing to hide here. heck, the admin even had (has?) the most recent accreditation review up on the website for public viewing.

 

i thank-you for your input - i agree with your comments about other students - that's why i am only seeking u of t med students for answers.

[nowai]

i thank-you for your input - i agree with your comments about other students - that's why i am only seeking u of t med students for answers.

And as an added point about the competition or lack thereof, for one of our recent exams on commnunity health, there were way too many readings involved. It was very nice to open up my email and see summary notes for most of the lectures sent out to everyone. Some of it was passed down through the years and others people summarized the new readings we had this year! And yes, the majority of the notes were very well done with no indications that people were leaving parts out to sabatoge fellow students.

[tarzi]

And as an added point about the competition or lack thereof, for one of our recent exams on commnunity health, there were way too many readings involved. It was very nice to open up my email and see summary notes for most of the lectures sent out to everyone. Some of it was passed down through the years and others people summarized the new readings we had this year! And yes, the majority of the notes were very well done with no indications that people were leaving parts out to sabatoge fellow students.

 

every school that i have interviewed at tells me the same thing - so there's no way that i can believe this to mean that everyone is non-competitive. there's no way that you can go from a pre-med competition mindset and then lose your competitive nature once you get into medical school - if this were the case, then we would have a perfect world where ppl would go into fields of interest rather than fields of "prestige, good money, good hours" - making radiology, derm, plastics, and orthopedic surgery the most competitive specialities - so there has to be some kind of competitition b/c once again, there are more med students then there are residency spots for these specialities.

 

by competition i certainly don't mean people going out of their way to sabotage their peers or not sharing resources - i can't understand why anyone would even do this. by competitive i mean, having an awareness that not everyone is going to graduate at the top 10% of the class and not everyone will score in the 90%-ile on the licensing exams and that if you want to match into a competitive speciality - you will have to consciously desire to want to do better than some of your peers.

[studentz]

And I still stand by my statements. The interview process -- at least for my class -- was successful in removing any sense of competition from the class as a whole. The desire to do well is there, of course, in all students. This does not equate to a desire to do better than others however. Honours at UofT is defined as 80% and up, not the top X% as at other schools. In theory 100% of the class could get honours, though this never happens. Nobody ever knows their rank in the class until the tail end of fourth year and grades are transcribed as H/P/F. Nobody even discusses test perfomance beyond the post-exam "How'd it go? Great! That's awesome, lets go to O'Grady's and get a drink." Furthermore, the Faculty will go out of its way to give any struggling students the chance to improve or remediate before an F is ever transcribed. I won't say that there isn't a conscious desire among many people to get an H as that would be false, but that is not the same thing as comparing your performance to others.

 

As for residency positions, the arguement that a desire for a competitive program automatically leads to a desire to do better than someone else once again doesn't hold. While you will get a sense of which classmates will be applying for the same positions as you, it is also the case that students from other schools will be applying for those same programs thus it's nonsensical to try and do better than everyone else since you won't even know the majority of those applying. Most medical students are mature enough to work towards improving their own application rather than ensuring that their application is better than a specific person or group of persons. It's a subtle difference, but an important one. Licensing exam scores are irrelevant in this country. You write MCCQE I at the end of your fourth year, after the match.

 

You have to understand that at this stage you do not go to school so that you can do well on tests because the marks are a means to an end. You go to school and learn the material because you will *in theory* use it professionally in your care of patients. This should be your primary motivation for learning at this stage. While some programs look favourably upon Hs in your first two years, far more weight is placed on your clerkship performance.

 

I do not have the time to list the ways classmates have gone out of their way to help other students academically or personally, nor do I feel that it's necessary. As I said, speak with people at the interview should you receive one. If you wish to convince yourself that medical students everywhere are competive and that you must respond in kind, then you will (inorrectly) succeed in convincing yourself. There are literally a couple thousand and change people who would love to be in that first year class this September.

[blinknoodle]

In reality, you won't know the dynamic of your classmates until you get to school and meet everyone. Each class is different and you won't know who you will be with until Sept (undoubtedly each class will have a certain kind of reputation). There will be competitive people in every class, at every school. Toronto has the luxury of over 200 students in the class, so you are bound to find different kinds of people. Surround yourself with those aren't competitive.

[peachy]

every school that i have interviewed at tells me the same thing - so there's no way that i can believe this to mean that everyone is non-competitive.

And, ironically, every premed that I have spoken to tells me the same thing - that they are looking for a non-competitive school. It's a little odd how people post this question over and over again, about how they are that rare premed that was never competitive and is now looking for a school where they won't find all those other unnamed competitive premeds. Perhaps pretty much everybody feels this way and that's one of the reasons why the competition isn't quite as bad as you expect?