Guest Maelswarm Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I think 3 years of university courses gives a better representation of that student's ability. Seriously, 1st year is like a review of high school for most people, and I know a lot of people who go their highest marks in 1st year. 2nd year, marks will start to drop, and by 3rd year, if you are still maintaining high grades, it means that you're well-suited to university-style learning. Senior courses require more understanding and critical thinking than junior courses, which are generally memorization and regurgitation. Just look at the testing styles and the depth of material covered in your 3rd year courses compared to 1st year. The difference between 2nd and 1st year courses was big, and so was between 3rd and 2nd. There's no reasonable way to compare someone with a 3.9 after 2 years of courses with a person with a 3.9 after 4 years. Of course, grades are only one part of the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 The point that you are missing is not about the studies or preparedness, but just to be treated fairly and equally based on all the factors that the schools are looking for ie.GPA, sketch etc. If they required 4 yrs,as next year, case closed. But since everyone with the prereqs qualify, why is there this discrimination going on???Is there evidence that Ottawa is not offering interviews to 3rd years simply on the basis of being in 3rd year? (I don't know anything about Ottawa admissions...) It seems to me, though, that 4th years have the simple advantage of having had (basically 50%!) longer to accumulate extracurriculars and so on to put together an impressive application. You are way less likely to have had, say, a significant leadership position or a great research job at the beginning of 3rd year vs 4th year, I would guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest satsumargirl Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I thought that it is unethical to discriminate....isnt this discriminating ie 3rd yr vs 4th yr. I think that Ottawa is discriminating on the basis of age....What about uoft...??How are they going to deal with 3rd yrs.. Also is Ottawa distinguishing between "grade12" 3rd yrs and "OAC" 3rd years...remember it is the double cohort!!!!!!! There is definitely a certain "maturity" that comes through with this comment. "Life is full of setbacks, success is determined by how you handle them" by - lululemon! Roll with the punches, learn about yourself, grow as a person...apply again if you still want to next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sparkle2005 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Just a thought for those who are commenting that "it's just one more year", "you're only 20/21,you have so much of your life ahead of you" etc.... I applied in my 3rd year, and had some very good reasons for doing so. With regards to working 3 years and not getting my degree, I wasn't concerned about my degree, when I eventually have an MD, my degree wont make much of a difference, BUT I was lucky, and was able to get a 3 year degree, so I have a Bachelor of Science, just not an honours. Why does the one year matter to me? Because I am a woman, and more than my job, or my degree, I look forward to having children and a family. I know I have a biological clock, an ideally, I would like to wait until after residency to have my first child. That one year will make a difference, it will lower my chances of having a child with a genetic difficulty like down syndrome. To me, that's well worth it. Obviously that doesn't change the fact that many people don't get in after 3rd year, and it is of course wonderful to get in at any age, I just don't think its fair to put people down/disregard their desire to get in as soon as they are given the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DancingDoc Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Hun, I don't mean to sound rude, but honestly applying in third year instead of fourth year is not going to have a big effect on your biological clock. I'm a woman and I want children someday but a few years at this stage in our lives makes absolutely no difference even if it's got an added three-four year wait. Getting in out of third as opposed to fourth because you want a baby without downs syndrome doesn't seem like a sufficient reason take a place in medical school from someone in fourth year who deserves it not because they wanted a baby a year earlier but simply because they wanted it and were ready for it. Of course congrats on getting in and I'm sure you'll be a great doctor, but your reasoning just does not make sense to me. I still think someone in fourth is going to be, in general, a more mature and well prepared candidate for medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MrNeuroscience Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Alright, so perhaps a little off topic, but I'll bite. With all due respect... by your reason-of-thinking you probably should have entered med straight out of high school somewhere in the E.U. or in australia (very popular places for Canadians to receive their training) That would have left 2 years (they are 5 year degrees) to let your biological clock tick down. Considering you said you would put having children before your education or career, then learning to become a physician in Canada as opposed to another industrialized nation should not have factored in to your descision making. No one here has said that there are not some 3rd years who have terrific expereince and are ready for meds at that time (although I would strongly argue that wanting to have a baby before "time runs out" is not a fantastic idea for entering meds... but to each their own) we were simply discussing (debating) the reasoning behind waiting to enter meds as opposed to rushing in to it. By and large many of us have gone beyond the 3rd year level and are speaking from personal experience... choose to listen to it if you want, but not letting 400 3rd years into meds this year does not add up to discrimination. To quote my parents "Ask me when you're older" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maelswarm Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I assume med schools have the interests of future patients and health care as their first priority rather than the age of their students (and their interests or life goals). For whatever reason, they may think that older correlates with a better physician. You'll have to assume that the ad coms try to make the best choices, and if you can't understand why you weren't selected, then take a closer look at what you have to offer. It's a bitter pill to swallow (rejection sucks), but life goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 When my siblings got in after 3rd year of course they were not ready to practice medicine, but by the time they graduate they certainly were ready, and even more ready after residency. Medicine is a long road, you will be so ready when you finish residency, especially if it is a long one with a fellowship. Getting in after 3 years is not a bad thing, it gets your career going sooner that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sparkle2005 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I was not suggesting thats a reason to have 400 3rd year students, only that I think each person is welcome to WANT to enter at whatever stage they are allowed to. I was clearly giving one of my reasons, and didn't bother to go into all of the reasons I beleive I'm mature enough to be in medical school. It's the same thing other people said, some third years are able to show they have gained the maturity to enter, and some don't. Some fourth years aren't mature enough, and they go on to do masters or work. Its totally a personal thing, that's why the admissions committees have so many steps to the process. The thing is, right now, they offers some 3rd years spots. This is a fact. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to conclude they think some people in third year are "ready" to enter medical school. (and as someone else said, it will still be at least 6 years before those people are actually praciticing on their own) So until they change the rules (which I realise they may do soon) let people who want to apply and look forward to it, and be excited about, do that! (Im not talking about the discrimination thing, I dont think its "discrimination" NOT to let 3rd years in) I guess I just don't think its fair to put down people's desires, and make it seem like "the 1/2/3 years don't matter" like so much else in life, that is a personal thing, and I was just trying to give some insight into why some people might care about the extra year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mcatsucks Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 sparkle 2005: Well said!!! As far as this "discrimination", it is being misunderstood.. IT is 3rd year Grade12 vs. 3rd year OAC that are being separated and I think all 3rd year students should be treated the same!! Hope that clears this issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maelswarm Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 how does Gr 12 and OAC matter at all? we're talking about people who are applying after 3 years of undergrad or more versus people who are applying after only 2 years of undergrad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MrNeuroscience Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 You are right... there most certainly are individuals that are perfectly suited for medical school after 3 years of undergraduate, which is what most people have been saying all along... But as you said, some 3rd years are not ready for medicine (the same with some fourth years) I believe what most of us are saying is that you should be better prepared for meds after fourth year than third... and this whole discrimination thing is a little out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeffpr Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Allow me to enlighten everybody with my years of knowledge; after all, I believe I was the one who provoked a few people in this thread. The first sentence was a joke....I think people should be allowed to apply whenever they want, they just shouldn't be shocked if they aren't offered a position. Maybe I am more realistic than most people but I know that I wouldn't get all excited over something I knew probably wasn't going to happen. To me it is hard enough getting a rejection letter when you don't think the chances of getting in Ottawa (or another school) are that great. I think you keep reading Chaucer (one of my favorites), do your Honours next year to gain some valuable research experience, reflect on how much you have learned from this experience, apply to medical school and carry on from there. I chose to do my Master's degree before I ever applied to any medical school because I knew it was a great opportunity to build upon, and it does not by any means guarantee you a spot in medical school, but it never hurts to have a Master's with some publications out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pbasted2 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I've got an idea: Who the h,ell cares what year you're in. There seems to be a whole bunch of hot air floating around here. I suggest everyone go and wait by your mailboxes for more med school letters. Or, even better, get a hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeffpr Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I've also got an idea: Take your mouth and go to another form if you don't like what people are discussing, what do you think the point of these forms are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeffpr Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Obviously I can't spell forum today either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jooolia Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 I think expressing your concerns is great! So here are just some things to think about, maybe absorb or possibly completely disregard... Dealing with rejection SUCKS. The key to the whole process is that you have to develop a new way of looking at things. You can look at it from the point of view that you're great, underappreciated and can go @#%$ and sulk about it. OR you can realise that this whole process is teaching you an number of valuable life-long lessons: 1) You will not always get what you want right away. So eventually you will need to accept that and adapt to dealing with that - maybe use this year for that? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger... 2) Handling rejection and criticism. This is an EXTREMELLY important skill that you need in med school. Your training will NOT be a walk through the park, where everyone will praise you and complement you. People will be mean, will be rude and will criticize you. If every time this happened, all the med students went and sulked and dwelled on that, instead of learning from that and rolling with the punches, we would not have many practicing physicians at the moment. 3) Finding positive in the negative - in the criticism (in this case your rejection letter), don't see the negative that you got rejected, but look for the positive - they're telling you WHY you got rejected - ie they're giving you incredible information as to exactly HOW you need/can improve to become a competitive applicant next time. And not only are they sharing this valuable information with you, but they're also giving you a WHOLE year to improve. 4) Patience and perceverence - if you want it bad enough you will get it. I'm sure that you will agree that both patience and perceverene are qualities that are very important in a physician... So you can start your physicial skill development even before you get here! This thread and the complaints coming from the 3rd years has shown some of the reasons for which Ottawa accepts a large proportion of 4th years. Yes, one can argue that 3rd yrs will have 6 years to mature before they become practicing physicians, but don't forget that you need maturity to handle medschool... The reality is, that most of the 3rd years who did not receive invitations this year, will interview at Ottawa next year, so keep your chins up, stay positive and give some thought to the points above Good luck! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest quebecboy Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 "Of the 17 in Canada, the 3-4 schools in Quebec (not counting McGill) may be the exception because they use CEGEP" Actually, half the students at McGill come from CEGEP... QcBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tutifruiti Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 great reply Joolia! Have you considered a career in psych? You would be awesome at doing CBT! Nobody really knows how the selection the interviewees work. Thus no one can accuse a med school of discrimination. If I was in the admission committee, considering the incredible volume of applicants I would be tempted (sometimes unconsciously) to discriminate against 3yr applicants thinking that these students would have had less life experience, have thought less about a career in medicine... But it would be ethically wrong to do so. All the more so since schools now only have 1 objective: to get the most suitable students out there whether they are 3rd or 4th year applicants. In front of adversity we like to rationalize. It is a coping mechanism. Sometimes we are discordant while doing it, which it is totally normal and it is part of our cognitive maturation. For example a 3rd year UG student who didn't get an interview would be tempted to accuse the school of discrimination against the school. An Asian 4th year student not getting in could also accuse the school of racism! Of course we will always be more prompt to find "external" out of our reach explanations for our failure as it is easier that admitting to ourselves that we weren't ready yet. I think people should see 3rd year UG application for med school as a 1 trial without much expectation to "get in" just like 1st-time Olympians who are just so excited of being part of the games. With this mindset it is easier to digest an eventual rejection. The truth is you will be a better applicant next year... not only because you would have taken 4 year UG courses, but mostly because you would have had 1 extra year to actively think and ask yourself these questions: "what are my weakness?", "why am I so in love with medicine that I am ready to spend 1 more year in UG in order to apply next time". Thus, I do believe 2nd timers applicants are usually stronger applicants. If I were you, I would celebrate the fact that I was part of the games, that I had the ever so hard to get cutoff GPA. Be proud of yourself and see your first shot trial to get into medicine rejection not as a failure but the preparation for your next "games" real application. You'll get there, don’t create an artificial rush! If I were you, take the most out of your summer time because there is no break between 3rd and 4year med school! Good luck everyone!!! ok now... how will i cope if i don't get my 1st choice in the CaRMS (o. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McGillMed2010 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 I really don't think it makes a difference whether someone is 3rd year or 4th year in terms of maturity and making a better doctor. Here in Quebec, we don't even need a university degree to enter med school since Quebec med schools take students after CEGEp (equivalent to grade 13) therefore there are people starting med school at around 18 years old and they go on to make great doctors.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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