Questions about Western - curriculum, student life, etc.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Hello to everyone interested in Western. . .

 

Do any of you guys applying to Western have any questions about the program here whatsoever? Myself or my classmates will try to answer them. Please note that awong37 has put together an excellent FAQ for Western Admissions questions at: www.mni.uwo.ca/meds2005/d...Q-2006.pdf

 

Also check out our class website at http://www.mni.uwo.ca/meds2005 or the forum Alex put together for anyone applying to UWO for meds at http://www.mni.uwo.ca/discus

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Beaver asked a question about PBL@UWO. . . (PBL stands for "Problem Based Learning" BTW) maybe one of my Western colleagues who check this board can give you a fresh perspective, but I've found that Western is essentially NOT a PBL school. The majority of the classes are straight lecture based, with the following exceptions. . .

 

PCL, aka PATIENT CENTRED LEARNING:

 

Supposedly, this is the cornerstone of the Western Curriculum. In actual fact, I have found most of my profs to be fairly patient centred in focus, and that is definitely a component of how we're taught to interview and do clinical exams. But there's also the PCL "class" every wednesday morning. . . which I think is so named to give the impression we do have PBL. Basically, for PCL we spend 2 hrs every Wednesday morning discussing

"Objectives" we've set to learn for the week. I find this less "problem based-learning" and more a chance to discuss some of the softer sciences associated with medicine - ethics, concerns about medical education, concerns about the direction medicine is heading, how to be "patient-centred" within the current billing system, etc. etc. Not all too unlike some of the threads on this board!

 

INDIVIDUAL PROF DISCRETION:

 

Other than PCL, the use of "PBL" is pretty much up to the discretion of the individual profs - some of them do incorporate PBL, or perhaps more correctly "case-based learning" into their lectures. I've found the only two courses to incorporate PBL into their classes are Biochemistry and Pathology. Anatomy, Physiology, Microbiology/Immunology, Life Cycle and Health, Illness & Society don't really incorporate PBL/case based learning. The biochemistry profs, I think, do a great job of incorporating PBL into the curriculum. Dr. Grant in particular bases his entire lectures on a series of cases showing how biochemistry might actually be useful to a medical graduate. . . The biochemistry in Introduction to Medicine as well had fairly well prepared PBL. On the other hand, I'll withhold my opinion on how the pathology department does with their PBL cases. . . though some do a very good job.

[Guest Hif1]

I think part of the reason why the discussion has become "diffuse" is because of final exams? Then again, its so tempting to come read this message board as a "quick" studying break. I guess I'll start off the questions. I've just got a bunch of general questions directed at the general dynamics of the student life. Do you generally find you have things to do other than study? Do you find yourself cramming everyday or can people get away with procrastinating until a few days before tests (like in undergrad)? I hear from people at U of T that its pretty much no life once you get in. And how does the class mesh? Do you guys hang out together, or do alot of out-of-class stuff together? From what I hear, London has a decent nightlife, with alot of clubs and bars. Are these well-used by the UWO meds? I don't know what exactly I'm getting at, but I just want to get a general feel for the "fun-ness" of the student life at UWO. I know medical school does have alot of academia, but I want to actually have some fun so I don't drown in it.

 

I've also read somewhere (maybe the U of T board?) that in a general survey across med schools, Western was voted as having the best curriculum. Any particular reasons for this? Is it because you've got that integrated approach of tying together all aspects (biochemistry, anatomy, etc) of a certain body area into one approach?

[Guest drspd]

Hi everyone,

 

Answers to the questions:)

 

The curriculum is the best for several reasons which were discussed in previous topics on this forum. It basically involves the integration of the curriculum into blocks, the experiences and responsibility provided to UWO clerks, the fact that our clerkship is finished before CARMS applications are due (residency match applications), etc. These of course are the basic selling points, there is also lots of time for career exploration, ample opportunity for electives, etc...

 

In regards to the social life here at UWO Meds:

YES, many people enjoy the night-life and bar scene here in London. Some more than others. There is also ample opportunity to participate in extra-curricular events against other UWO teams (i.e. law, undergrad, MBA, etc.). In addition, there are always Meds only sporting events (i.e. open BBall night, canoe trips, golf trips, etc.) that you can participate in. Our class is amaizingly close, this may be because we all live around campus and thus can't comute to and from school and keep our school lives completely separate from our private lives (unlike some other schools - which isn't necessarily a horrible thing). All in all, you don't need to study every-day all-day, but if you don't study enough, you really have to work it near exams... (i.e. now)

 

Hope that helped!

 

DRSPD

Meds 2005

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Nice to see you around here again drspd! It's good to have another UWO med students opinions. . .

 

Hif1 - I think I know where you're coming from. One of my first questions last year of the med students I met during interview weekends was "Do med students still go out and party? Or do you end up studying all the time?"

 

I think that person's response applies quite well to Western "Well. . . I may not go out as much during the week as I did in undergrad, but I you can bet I still make it out on weekends!"

 

With class almost every morning at 8:00am it's kind of hard to make it out to the Ridout or the Ceeps for EVERY Thursday night (a good portion our class did make it out for a couple of Thursday nights near the start of the year. . .) In general, most of us don't go "out" that much on weekdays (well, maybe to Molly Bloom's on Monday for a couple of hours for wings and a beer or two. . . and the occasional slip-up trip to the Ceeps or the Drink during the week. . .) but you can bet we still do it up on the weekends.

 

Actually, I think the same applies for the other med schools as well. . . I have friends at both Queens and Dalhousie, and their experiences are pretty much the same as mine. As for U of T. . . I'm not a student there, but I've interacted on these boards with U of T students who've suggested that if you don't want to study all the time, you don't have to. Certainly, I've read posts from people on Delphi who don't study ALL the time. . . My 'impression' of U of T (and that's all it is) is that yes, there are people there that are really intense and don't do anything but study, but there are lots of other people who aren't like that. You just have to choose who you hang out with.

 

And, if the bars aren't your scene, there's okay too. They aren't for everyone - we have a number of people who come out with the class, but there are also a number of people who abstain and that's cool too. As for other activities - Intramural sports teams are pretty big here, there are a number of clubs/societies both within the med school and at Western in general (the Salsa club seems to be especially popular. . .) and I even know of a few people who've gotten into fine art type activities such as playing in the local orchestra or taking drawing classes. And there's definitely some rugby if that's your thing. . . (I point it out simply because it is my kind of thing. . .)

 

As for your question re: exams. . . I do find I need to study a fair bit more than in Undergrad. I like the 3 week rule. . . don't worry about it too much until 3 weeks before exams but then work pretty hard for those 3 weeks. (kind of scary thought at the moment. . . our finals start 3 weeks today.)

 

As for Western having the "best curriculum". . . we do have a fairly good balance of material in 1st and 2nd year. I don't think, however, the preclinical years are the reason Western's curriculum might be called "the best." What I have heard sets Western apart is our clerkship program. . . I'm only in 1st year so can't speak from experience, but I've heard it's really gruelling/challenging but at the same time one of the best in the country. This is particularly true for our surgical program. . . everything I've heard has indicated this is a great school if you're interested in surgery! At least that seems to be the consensus of many of the 4th years I've talked to who completed electives with students from the other schools. And from the physicians/surgeons I've spoken with, clerkship is where you really learn medicine. . . everything before that is basically learning the medical lingo and background theory. So I think our clerkship program more than anything should be your reason for coming here.

[Guest Hif1]

Hey, thanks for the replies. UWO is sounding better and better. I just thought of a couple more questions. Is it necessary to have a car to get around in London and enjoy the nightlife? If not, how's the public transit? Is it reliable, and does it run often? I'm also wondering about how the tests and general syllabus is set up for the curriculum. Like undergrad, do you have tests every few weeks in each subject? Is it all like multiple choice, like good ol U of T undergrad? And do you have the odd assignment or essay as well? And seeing that you haven't even started exams yet, how long does your school year go for? Questions just keep popping into my head as I go about my daily business.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

No problem with the questions! It's one of the reasons I post here. . . to give premeds an idea of the kind of school Western is. I had NO clue when I applied - to be honest, the main reason I applied to UWO was because there was no essay. . . I was filling out the OMSAS application for other schools in Ontario and to apply to Western only required a checkmark and an extra $75. It wasn't until I started interacting on boards such as this one with UWO Med students, and got to meet a bunch at the interview weekend, that I became sold on UWO meds. . . And I'm sure others are interested in the answers to your questions as well - sometimes it's hard to come up with questions on the spot.

 

Anyways, to answer your questions:

 

CAR - A car isn't critical, but sure is helpful! This time last year, I thought there'd be no way I'd buy a car: I caved and bought one over the march break. The public transportation system in London isn't that great - but it suffices, and there's usually enough people in the class with rides (about 1/3 in our class in 1st year. . . I'd guess that will climb to 1/2 - 2/3 by next year!) that you can carpool.

 

If you don't have a car, I'd suggest trying to find housing near Richmond & Oxford. I'd looked at a place there last year, but was worried it was too far from the University. As it turns out, the one place public transportation isn't lacking is between Richmond & Oxford and the University. . . buses run frequently between the two locales. And Richmond & Oxford has all the local amenities. . . there's a grocery store, plenty of other shops, it's not too far from downtown, and much of the nightlife occurs right there. I decided to get a place somewhere else. . . and regretted it for a while (the fact I have a car now makes it sort of a non-issue.)

 

Assignments & Tests. . . there are actually very few "assignments" at UWO meds. I think we've had maybe 3 assignments of note, each the equivalent of about a 1500 word essay. Not that bad - though I think there's a few more assignments in 2nd year. As for tests, there are no 'tests,' only 'exams.' In first year, the year is divided into quarters and you're tested at the end of each quarter. In second year, the year is divided into trimesters. You'll have a number of exams (3-5) over the space of a week and that week is pretty intense, but it means the rest of the time is fairly relaxed. You're probably better off working the whole way through, but a number of people decide to enjoy the first few weeks of each quarter, and then work their butts off for the 3 weeks before exams. Exams tend to be almost entirely multiple choice. A 'pass' is a 60% whereas 'honours' is 80%. Hearing that at first I expected most people to get almost all honours. . . it doesn't quite work that way, but apparently getting 'passes' doesn't really hurt you for getting into the residency you want (I recently spoke to a guy who got into a pretty competitive residency position with almost NO honours in 1st and 2nd year). Just don't fail.

 

Our year. . . Both 1st and 2nd year exams are the last week of May/first week of June. The first years then do a "rural week" where we go to communities in Southwestern Ontario to follow the local physicians around. At first, it seemed kind of like a pain. . . I mean, having already gone that late in the year I'd almost just like to get my summer started! But from what I've heard, the week is pretty enjoyable. You get some good clinical experience (which I find is a lot more fun than sitting in lecture. . .) and apparently the communities are so eager to try and attract you as a potential future physician that they often treat the med students like Queens/Kings. One of the second years I talked to showed up for his placement and the physician said "so you want to see what the life a physician in this community is like?" They ended up spending three days in the clinic, and spent the other two days on the golf course. Not a bad, considering it's "school!"

 

So. . . good questions. If you have any more, just ask away!

[Guest Hif1]

Another barrage of questions for you. You're being so helpful that I'm trying to think of every question that I've ever had about Western. Do you think you could give me a ballpark figure on how much rent would be in London? Say, if I lived in this Richmond and Oxford area, with or without a roomate, etc. I hear the cost of living is significantly less living in London compared to Toronto? And how easy is it to get bursaries? I hear scholarships are pretty rare going into med school, so I'll take any money I can get. And is it possible to get a spot on campus in one of the residences? Or is that mainly for undergrad?

 

Also, from this great curriculum that I hear about it seems that, clinically, you might have an advantage over other schools? Is this seen in picking residencies? I guess its the age-old question: does going to UWO increase my chances at landing certain residency spots, such as surgery, or competitive spots such as derm, etc. And if one was interested in Ortho, would going to UWO be a good choice due to the presence of the 3W sports clinic? I hear its a world-class facility.

 

Also, if I wanted to do my residency and/or practice in a city such as Toronto, would my chances of doing this be decreased by going to UWO instead of U of T? Is it true that spots in Toronto have a greater preference for Toronto grads? I guess alot of these questions are sometimes based on opinion, but it never hurts to hear some different points of view.

 

Thanks for answering my questions... Doesn't anyone else have questions?? Sometimes its hard to get straight-forward answers.. take advantage of these helpful people!

[Guest crackers]

Hi hif1, another 1st year UWO MEDS student here. Just to give you a few examples, I live with another med student, and 2 other people in the house, and I pay $375 a month + utilities. Some students live on their own (in NICE apartments near Oxford + Richmond, I might add) for $695 a month. You can get away with living on your own from $500+ a month, depending on how much you want a basement apartment. There are also some buildings on campus for 1 and 2 bedroom apartments that are reasonable, have just about everything included, and are very convenient. A typical 4 bedroom house might run you $1500-$2000 a month for 4 people, and some might have utilities thrown in. Check out the Off-Campus Housing Service website at http://www.uwo.ca/hfs/housing/offcamp/index.htm to see for yourself.

I have a car. It's a decency around here, because the city is quite spread out, and our bus passes are only good through the end of April unless you go get it extended at $60 a month. By third year, clerkship will take us to every hospital in the city, and for at least a month out into rural communities, so a car becomes a necessity at that point.

The clerkship has the advantage of being a) all in third year, so you have seen everything before you have to apply for your matches, and you have some idea in what you want to do your fourth-year electives not in Toronto, where a lot of the interesting stuff will go to the residents and the fellows because THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE THERE FOR (and that's no knock against U of T med school). A friend of mine in fourth year compared notes with his friends at other schools, and said Western's clerks are given the greatest opportunity to learn, from what he's seen. Here you could get greater exposure to orthopeds, or derm, or plastics, because it's available here (3M centre, etc). The fourth year class this year did quite well in matching to competitive specialties, although at the same time a few did not match to their choices; that varies year-to-year, and there's no hard and fast rule. Doing a residency in Toronto would only be hurt in going here if you didn't do an elective in Toronto so the people there could learn a little bit about you (the rule apparently is, if you want to do residency somewhere, you basically have to do an elective there to meet the brass and show them what you've learned and what you're capable of doing). Not sure about the bias towards U of T grads; but there are more of them than there are of UWO grads on a yearly basis, and they would be known to the residency program chairs there. Plus, with the larger patient volume, it's a great place to do your residency training. That being said, I am EXTREMELY happy to be here for meds. Good luck!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Crackers. . . great to see you here. As I mentioned to drspd, I'm sure people in Western appreciate the additional feedback. Hey - you should even e-mail Ian Wong about being moderator. . . lets you edit messages when people say things you don't like.

 

Hey Hif1 - once again, great questions. Keep them up - I'm sure there are others out there who appreciate them.

 

Rent at Richmond & Oxford. . . I looked at a 3-person place last year at Richmond & Oxford for $345 + Util. I also know a person in our class with a single there for $500 + util. It's cheaper (somewhat obviously) to live with a roommate. . . I don't know, but if you don't know anyone coming here it might be possible to set something up either on this forum or the MEDS2006 Admissions forum (http://www.mni.uwo.ca/discus). Would that be of any interest to you guys?

 

Bursaries - easy. I ended up getting one last year. You can apply right now. Can't remember the URL, but I believe it's posted on the admissions portion of our class website. . . http://www.mni.uwo.ca/meds2005.

 

As for clinical questions, etc. . . First off, we had 24 grads this year get into residency positions in Toronto. You don't have the advantage of being at U of T for setting up electives & getting to know people, but that's what electives are for. . . in other words, I don't think going to Western puts you at a disadvantage for U of T for residency, or for any other school for that matter.

 

To expand on what I know about UWO's clerkship program. . . we had someone come in from the surgery department to speak to us about surgery @ UWO. Apparently it's a great (but also very challenging) surgery clerkship here. We had a fair amount of 4th years match to surgery this year. And I'm pretty sure the orthopedics program in particular is quite strong. We do have 3M - both Lindros and Brian Stemmle had significant surgeries done here a couple of years ago, and one of the orthopod residents was telling me one of the guys trained at UWO ended up setting up a practice in Denver where he became the Bronco's team surgeon and got to work on John Elway's shoulder.

 

And I do think our great clinical clerkship DOES put you at an advantage as compared to other students when it comes to residencies. Thing is - you have to make the most of clerkship for this to be a factor. This has been discussed under the "CARMs & Residency" forum, and I think most of us are agreed WHO is applying for a residency spot is much more important than WHERE they come from. . . the match rate for each school varies widely year to year. Having saif that, at Western you're given great responsibilities & opportunities, but it's up to you to take advantage of those. And the way I see our clerkship putting you at an advantage is that it's my impression the #1 factor for residency performance is performance in ELECTIVES AT THE PROGRAM YOU'RE APPLYING FOR. Supposedly (according to our 4th years. . admittedly a biased source), Western clerks are among the best prepared around. And that preparation should help you have the killer elective you need for that Plastics residency spot you so desperately seek. . .

[Guest aneliz]

Hi guys,

 

This is a great thread, thanks for taking time out from studying to answer our million and twenty questions. Seeing as it is almost summer, what are people in your class planning to do during the summer? Also, how much opportunity there is at Western to participate in research? Are there any summer research positions available for med students? Do med students at Western generally have any interest in research?

[Guest crackers]

I would say about half our class is doing research for the summer this year. A lot of the rest are travelling, doing some medicine volunteer work, or combining the two; three of our classmates are going to Tanzania for Med Outreach 2002, and another two are going to mainland China. There are international research programs coordinated at the national level, and a fair number of first and second year students are doing research in Greece, Brazil, France, India, to name a few places. There is the summer research training program (SRTP) here at Western, and quite a few more students will me doing work in either clinical or basic science research here this summer and next. There are also a few paid positions for developing software for med students (CDs on neuroanatomy and GI anatomy were produced this way last summer) and a couple for the development of protocols and/or curriculum components.

Several members of our class have advanced degrees (I have a PhD) and are going back to the labs they were in, or doing research in some other discipline for the summer (I'm doing health services research in Toronto, since I've had enough wet bench work for a lifetime, THANK YOU). It may be difficult to coordinate research during the year with school, but I think the faculty members are enthusiastic about helping anyone who wants to try. Good luck!

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey guys!

 

A couple more questions for you guys and gals- Crackers- you mentioned that people are doing research for the summer in the basic and clinical sciences, etc.- can you be a little more specific? Like what are people going to be studying- maybe a few examples please?

And as for bursaries, well, what is a good ballpark figure that students received? I have no idea what to expect, and actually, I get kind of a kick out of showing everyone the little cost brochure we got w/ our interview packages, just to see the look of horror/disbelief cross people's faces. Of course, then I have to answer the "well, how are you going to pay for all this?" question to which I really have no answer other than "well, I have to get in first, and then I'll worry about it". Anyway, just trying to get an idea of how to come up with the 60 zillion or so dollars this is going to cost me and any light that can be shed on the matter would be muchly appreciated! Thanks!

 

Best of luck, all!

 

Timmy

 

(P.S.: Only 27 days to go!)

[Guest crackers]

Some are doing population and reproductive research in Greece, some are doing basic biochemistry research, some are doing tissue analysis pathology research, some are doing renal and cardiovascular physiology research. I'm doing health services research, probably on ER over-crowding. Look on the Western Fac of Meds web site looking for the SRTP program for more info. For bursaries, average was about $2-3K, plus some people got Millenium Scholarships. Apparently the levels rise a bit as you get on in years, plus OSAP kicks in for Ontario residents at a higher level if you are out of high school for 5 years. Hope that helps.

[Guest drspd]

Just to throw in my 2 cents... This summer I'll be doing some clinical research in the Division of Thoracic Surgery... Both clinical experience (i.e. clinic, Operating room, etc.) and clinical research (doing a follow up study to a study I did last year).

 

Just 'cause several of us are interested in research by no means indicates that our class is research focused as a whole. There are many people who are taking the summer off, traveling, soul searching, etc... In every class there will be individuals who absolutely know they are going to be involved in Academic medicine (i.e. working at a teaching hospital), similarly there are individuals who will never set foot in another teaching hospital again following their residency... there are also individuals in-between who want to feel out reserach and decide if its something for them.

 

All in all, every opportunity exists at UWO and you can take away anything you want from an experience. In addition, just because you attend UWO for medicine doesn't mean you can't work at other centres during the summer or during your clinical electives.

 

See ya,

 

DRSPD

UWO Meds'05

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I ended up with $3000 in bursaries from Western and a $3000 millenium scholarship. On another note. . . You guys have heard about the Line of Credit deals the banks will give you, right?

 

Summer. . . I don't think the % of people doing research is as high as 50% - probably closer to 25-30%. My impression is that the most significant activity by numbers for Western students is clinical electives. Some are setting up their own with doctors in the cities, but there are also a number of programs to do electives in smaller underserviced communities/rural areas in Southwestern Ontario and Northern Ontario, as well as chances to do clinical electives internationally! But if research is your thing there's opportunity for that as well. . .

[Guest safsaf]

would you have to do a MD/PHD combo to get into academic medicine

[Guest UWOMED2005]

'crackers' could comment on this better than me but I'll give it a shot

 

No. . . doing an MD/PhD is not necessary as far as I know to get into academic medicine. But a PhD is a valuable asset when looking for positions in academic centres. . . and an MD/PhD is from what I've heard a great way of doing your PhD. But other options as well - you can do the PhD before med school (eh, Dr. crackers?) or I've even heard many residency programs will give you a couple of years off to do research and many docs do a PhD in that time. Not sure of the details though.

[Guest TimmyMax]

Hey guys,

 

I hear a lot of talk about these great lines of credit people have lined up, but I was wondering what you need to go about this. I'm under the impression that you need your acceptance letter, which you then wave in their faces and then they go and open the vaults for you- is this accurate? How did people go about setting up their lines of credit? Thanks.

 

Tim

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Actually. . . that pretty much is it, Tim. Just bring the acceptance letter and whatever proof you have you're enrolled and the banks should set you up, though some banks are better than others (TD Canada Trust, for example, didn't offer much at all.) Also, some branches have been informed of better packages than others - the Royal bank has a package "designed for Western" (not sure what that means) I think it's best to contact the Richmond & Oxford branch of the Royal Bank. . . they know specific details. And there should be stuff about that in your acceptance letter.

 

I'd just like to make two notes: One, make sure to get a line of credit that has a fair amount of space but also OFFERS INTEREST AT PRIME and gives you a pretty good package. If the Bank offers any more than that (ie prime +1%) don't take it - there are banks that will offer you prime.

 

Second, don't forget that the money IS BORROWED and you WILL HAVE TO PAY IT BACK. It would suck to HAVE TO make specialty choices based on your Line of Credit, and on top of that, you'll probably have to carry that LOC (line of credit) throughout residency. . . resident salaries aren't that great.

[Guest crackers]

An MD/PhD will make it easier for you to get a job in academic medicine, but it is not a prerequisite. I did the PhD before the MD (well, a quarter of the MD so far), and this is my long term career goal. I won't go by Dr. anything just yet; don't want to inspire delusions of competence in any of the patients I might encounter over the next three years... plus announcing yourself as Dr. Slaughter (!) raises eyebrows and puts a few people off. No #$%^#%@#^%@ way am I doing surgery...

Most of the med schools have a combined program (U of T, Western, U of O for sure) but admission is highly competitive and you interrupt your meds after basic science years to do your research, and then you go back for clerkship and clinical after you have your PhD. Usually it takes about 7-8 years all told. And the lines of credit are not opened wider for having the advanced degree...

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Ahh. . . but crackers, can't you get grants for the PhD years of the MD/PhD?

[Guest crackers]

yes, you can. About $20K/yr in an MD/PhD program, and a bit less in a straight PhD program (or Master's). Which just about covers cost of living + tuition in a major centre, and maybe a bit better in a smaller one. It's not always the most livable of circumstances. The difference for the MD/PhD programs is that the funding is MUCH better, and may cover some of the tuition costs for the medical training at the same time.

[Guest Liana]

One of the most reputable researchers I know is strictly an MD. However, his lab publishes A LOT and is involved in very cutting edge research. In general, it would probably be easier to break into the field with a PhD as well, but it's totally not necessary.

[Guest BC guy]

Did UWO get extra # of seats for this coming Sept class?