what are the cons?

[Guest DancingDoc]

I can name plenty of pros for going to UofT if I were to get accepted, but what,from experience,have you guys found to be the cons? How much have they affected your experience, or what have you done about them?For instance, the large number of students... is this actually a con, if so why? How much experience in the hospitals do you actually get (with such prestigious doctors, do they have/are willing to teach, and do you get enough one-on-one experience?), what about preclerkship hospital experience (I know first year there is not much time for observership...)? ETC.... i.e. cons along those lines.

 

Just trying to past the time, and trying to be optimistic!! (Good luck to everyone else waiting!)

[Guest mshammer]

hi Dancing Doc...

 

I've seen some of your posts on the MUN board (I also interviewed there), so my thoughts on the biggest con would be the COST. $17,000 and change for UofT, $6250 for MUN. Plus, living in St. John's is a lot cheaper than living in Toronto! (I'm currently living here in TO)

 

Obviously, loans shouldn't necessarily be the first thing you think about when choosing a medical school, but depending on where you're at in your life (married, or looking to buy a house, or issues with undergrad student loans), it may be something to consider.

 

More specific to your post, you asked about class size...I have a friend here who did UofT med (now in peds at Sick Kids), and said a small class size might have been nicer to get to know more people...but he's also from Toronto and an established 'life' outside med school. So I don't know how involved he was in the med school social scene (which seems pretty good here).

 

I also know people who graduated from MUN and they've gone where they wanted - met an emerg doc when I showed up at an ER in New Westminster, BC, from a mountain biking accident, and two people from my hometown in NL have thriving family practices here in Ontario. Also, my undergrad thesis supervisor was on the admissions board for med at UBC, and said MUN med had a good reputation across the country.

 

Since you already know all the great things about UofT, I haven't mentioned any.

 

And just to clarify, this isn't a 'go to MUN' post...you're obviously making your decision carefully, so I just thought I'd throw some things out there that you may not have come across!

 

best of luck with your decision...

[Guest Ollie]

Hi,

 

It's exam time coming up so you might not get too many responses, but here's mine.

 

Definitely cost in the biggest con. Expensive tuition + expensive cost of living= big debt. But what can you do?

 

Class size: This year's incoming class is around ~220 I think so yeah that's a big class. No you aren't going to get to know everyone. But it has its advantages. Since there are so many people you are bound to find people you have lots in common with and make lots of friends! There are tons of student groups and clubs and there are always people organizing new ones. So you can definitely find some fun extra-currics. Also there is lots of small group stuff so you aren't always in a big lecture hall with 200+ people. You get to know the people in your academy pretty well because that's who you have all your small groups with.

 

Clinical experience: Half-day of clinical skills in groups of 5-6. This is pretty much the same as other schools I think. Tutors range from average to amazing. For one-on-one, that people set up on their own and it's very easy to do. Either you ask one of your tutors, or if you don't know anyone in that specialty, you ask student affairs and they will help you. Some of my friends have done tons of shadowing and some have done none. I've been able to scrub in for a couple of surgeries which was great (yes, actually scrub in, and do stuff!). The good thing about Toronto is that there are TONS of doctors and so many hospitals so close to us, that it's no problem to find someone to shadow.

 

I guess the other con for pre-clerkship is the heavy schedule in first year, especially the first half of the year. If you are really keen on PBL you'll probably find yourself frustrated because PBL doesn't start until Feb of 1st year. And according to many people it's not true "PBL", but more like small-group-case-review-type-thing. I think that's just semantics myself. Whatever gets me out of lecture and in a small group makes me happy.

[Guest caliente]

I'm not entirely convinced a standard pro/con evaluation will reveal the right med school for you. There are many intangible things, in my opinion, that can't be measured or even adequately described.

 

I am about to finish my first year at UofT. I cannot say I've enjoyed it. Sometimes I do think about what it would have been like if I'd chosen another school (including schools outside of Canada). However, there are many people in my class who seem to truly enjoy being at this school. Maybe next year or clerkship will be better for me.

 

In the end, it seems like a blind choice. The way the school seemed during interview weekend may not be the way it is day-to-day. The way other people experience the school and its curriculum may not be the way you experience it. Good luck with your choice.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hey there,

 

It's pretty tough to form accurate impressions of life at most medical schools because most folks applying to medical schools don't have a chance at living an average week in the life of a medical student at a given medical school. Similarly, it's tough to judge the appropriateness of a residency program by the interview day(s) alone, and without having completed an elective at the school. In that regard, although it's pretty much not feasible, it would be interesting for pre-med students to experience medical school "electives" akin to those that we do during clerkship so that better decisions might be made re: how fitting one program is relative to another for a given applicant.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest peachy]

At least in preclerkship, the independence at U of T can, I think, be a big con for some people depending on what you are like. If you don't take the initiative to set up shadowing experiences, apply for rural experiences, and so on, nobody is going to do it for you, and it won't be part of the standard curriculum. There are those who really like this, on the other hand, because they can do exactly what they want to without being stuck doing what is organized by the school.

 

For me, a con at U of T, at least in first year, was that the curriculum (imho!) is not friendly to people who come from non-science backgrounds. It did not feel to me that things were taught from scratch, and there were constantly words and concepts in lectures that I had never heard before, that had not been introduced in the curriculum, that we were expected to know already. I doubt that people with a science background would even have noticed this, though.

[Guest cake333]

Hey Calient,

Can you elaborate on some of the reasons your year wasn't so good? I've heard similiar things from other people, but never really with reasos why....

Thanks!

[Guest Madz25]

con, IMO : living in toronto!!! (sorry peachy!)

 

Madz

[Guest pyhw]

I agree with the above posts that cost is a big factor when deciding whether or not to go to UofT. You can probably get financial aid packages, and the policy of the school is that no one who is accepted will not be turned away because of financial issues. But at the end of the day, UofT costs a chunk of change.

 

I'd also like to throw a spin on some of the perspectives that have already been posted. I think the way that UofT meds is structured can be both a pro and a con. UofT is probably less personal than other medical schools not only because of its large class size, but also just because the entire faculty is so much larger and supports a lot of postgraduate education. On one hand, this means that a medical student will have access to more resources overall, but it also means a lot of the initiative is put on the student to seek out these opportunities.

 

If you're into any kind of research from basic and clinical sciences to international health and health policy, this is the place to be. If you want to explore the plethora of specialties available in medicine, UofT is great. But because of the large numbers of UofT-affiliated hospitals and clinicians, there's no way you'll get exposed to even a fraction of what's out there.

 

That said, the small group problem-based learning seminars and clinical medicine classes are key to classroom interaction and getting to know your tutors. I've run into a few really good tutors with whom I was able to tap into resources (shadowing opportunities, career advice), but I think each student's experience is different.

 

So in the end, I think UofT's pros and cons depend on your learning style, personality, and your goals in medicine. Think of it as a date - who do you want to spend the next four years of your life with?

[katerade]

this is an old post, i'm just going to bump it up. can anny current u of t students add to this? specifically, can anyone comment on the pros and cons of the honours/pass/fail system?

[studentz]

There is no real pro to an HPF system compared to straight P/F. However, our HPF system is not curved. In theory the whole class could get honours; the average on our first FMP exam was 87% for the MC portion. This is different from many schools out there where a certain percentage gets honours.

 

The HPF system is the only con (other than money) that seems to be stable in the near future, and this is a con only relative to P/F schools. As for money, the tuition isn't bad; when you factor in the grant portion of OSAP (i.e. everything over $7000 per year) and faculty grants, I pay pretty much what I did in undergrad. Rent is the main issue in Toronto.

 

There are some issues with clerkship scheduling and board prep time at the end, but that will likely change by the time it affects my class. That said, UofT did finish third on part 1 last year I believe, even in the absence of a set "back to basics" time that's present in most schools.

 

I actually like the heavy first year and reasonably light second year. It's a break before your life is eaten up by clerkship, we have time to really study things we want to instead of just trying to keep up with class, we have to shadow and do research etc. I was initially apprehensive about the heavy first year but it turned out to be great now that I'm in second year.

 

As for the school being "not too personal", it's not true. The admin people by and large know peoples names, our student affairs people certainly do, I've had tutors invite my groups to their houses for diner, take us out for lunch etc. It's hard to reconcile with the image that some people have of UofT St. George undegrad life sci, but if you spend time talking with people, you'll believe it. My pre-interview dinner was key in improving my opinion of UofT (I did my undergrad downtown) so if you get an interview, really try to make it out to all the events.

 

There are a few people at each school who aren't the happiest, but I'm sure the majority of people here love the program.

 

And as for Toronto, every time I leave this city I appreciate it more. There are beautiful places to live across this country and in the US, but this city is becoming very dynamic, there's a cultural renaissance here and the diversity is something I would miss dearly elsewhere. And it still is the safest large city in North America.

 

At the end of the day, we can all post various pros vs cons lists, but you have to figure out what your priorities are and rank your schools accordingly.

[katerade]

 

That said, UofT did finish third on part 1 last year I believe, even in the absence of a set "back to basics" time that's present in most schools.

 

 

Thanks studentz

 

are you all aware of your rank in each section of the course? is this infor available to everyone (ie does everyone know who the #1 is)? are the grades on your transcript? or just the hpf?

 

also, how many exams per year do you have? and are they all non-cumulative? do you have a cumulative final at the end?

[doc.in.training]

-you are not aware of your rank in each course, this info is not available. You get your % mark on all exams (at least for 1st year, excluding clinical skills), but your transcript ONLY says H/P/F.

- exams per year: in first year, we had 4 exams in Structure & Function (+ 2 histology exams), none of which were cumulative. We have 2 exams for Determinants of Community Health. We had 2 exams for Metabolism and Nutrition (+ a histology exam), the final was cumulative. We have 2 exams for Brain and Behaviour, the final is cumulative. We have a midterm evaluation and final OSCE for clinical skills - cumulative.

- all in all, first year is very tough, but you get through it. IMO, it is quite challenging for those w/o an extensive Life Sci background, such as myself

-The GREAT thing (IMO) about U of T's curriculum is that, as opposed to some schools where they take a systems-based approach, you see a lot of the same material repeatedly in different contexts, and this really does help to solidify the important concepts prior to clerkship.

[katerade]

-The GREAT thing (IMO) about U of T's curriculum is that, as opposed to some schools where they take a systems-based approach, you see a lot of the same material repeatedly in different contexts, and this really does help to solidify the important concepts prior to clerkship.

 

I find that interesting that you said that, because for me, the systems based approach at other schools like western is a huge pro over u of t. why do you think the more conventional program is better then the newer systems based programs? dont you think its better to learn anatomy and physiology along with the pathology and clinical applications relating to a certain system?

[doc.in.training]

It's funny you say that, because I felt the exact same way you did last year! The systems-based approach very much appealed to me, and it was a huge con in my mind that U of T did not have that. During O-week, the second years assured us that while anatomy and physiology during structure and function is HELL on earth, it would pay off. I didn't believe them at the time, but as I near the end of first year, I see exactly what they are talking about. For example, I didn't remember any of the nerves and which muscles they innervated in the limbs, but we are now doing Brain and Behaviour, and we have to go back and study that anatomy again to answer questions about lesion location, etc. It was the same with metabolism and nutrition - while we had flown over some of the anatomical structures of the glands in structure and function, we got the chance to see the anatomy again along with the biochem and physiology that related to certain endocrine and exocrine glands.

 

Again, next year we will see similar material again in Pathobiology of disease (but focusing on the pathology) and again in Foundations of Medical Practice.

 

Sorry, I don't know if this post made much sense to someone who doesn't know U of T's curriculum very well, but basically my point is that while you may see it as a con now, and you likely will during structure and function, you may see it differently in the future.

[Ollie]

It's funny you say that, because I felt the exact same way you did last year! The systems-based approach very much appealed to me, and it was a huge con in my mind that U of T did not have that. During O-week, the second years assured us that while anatomy and physiology during structure and function is HELL on earth, it would pay off. I didn't believe them at the time, but as I near the end of first year, I see exactly what they are talking about. For example, I didn't remember any of the nerves and which muscles they innervated in the limbs, but we are now doing Brain and Behaviour, and we have to go back and study that anatomy again to answer questions about lesion location, etc. It was the same with metabolism and nutrition - while we had flown over some of the anatomical structures of the glands in structure and function, we got the chance to see the anatomy again along with the biochem and physiology that related to certain endocrine and exocrine glands.

 

Again, next year we will see similar material again in Pathobiology of disease (but focusing on the pathology) and again in Foundations of Medical Practice.

 

Sorry, I don't know if this post made much sense to someone who doesn't know U of T's curriculum very well, but basically my point is that while you may see it as a con now, and you likely will during structure and function, you may see it differently in the future.

 

I agree with doc.in.training about the benefits of the UofT curriculum. While Structure and Function is a long haul, it definitely pays off in the end, especially with Foundation of Medical Practice in 2nd year. FMP is completely clinically focused and you learn how to approach problems the way you need to in clerkship. You are reviewing the anatomy and physiology you learned in first year, and you have 1.5 years of clinical experience to help you put everything together in context. It's a really good way to wrap up pre-clerkship and get ready for the wards. I use my FMP notes to study for clerkship exams, and in fact the Toronto Notes (MCCQE review book) is in some parts verbatim from our FMP notes.

 

But while we're on the topic of cons, here are my cons about UofT.

 

-as mentioned above, the long haul of Sept-Jan in first year

 

-DOCH 2 research project. Research = good; Research + DOCH bullsh!t = bad

 

-in clerkship we are not "first call to the wards" as a rule (although you can be if you want and the residents are usually happy to hand it over). While I was actually thankful for this during my first rotation when you have no clue about anything, I think it really is beneficial to be forced into it, because you learn the best when you figure it out on your own. Having said that, I almost always go see patients on my own first (for consults or in clinic), do the H+P, come up with a plan as best I can, then present to the resident/staff.

 

-we do some core rotations (emerg, anesthesia and derm) in 4th year, which means you may do them after CaRMS, so if you do derm after the match and discover that it's your calling, you are SOL. I have no idea why clerkship is structured this way, but I have heard rumblings that it may be changed.

 

That's pretty much it. I am now almost 3/4 through med school and I have to say that I really enjoy it and am very happy at UofT. And this is coming from someone who didn't even really want to apply here because of the supposed cutthroat competitiveness (which by the way is a total myth, my classmates are awesome!).

[degoo_]

Another question:

 

Have the medical students been told of the importance of an H vs. a P on the transcript? Will the lack of a large proportion of H's hold you back from competitive residency positions, even if you have good letters, good research etc? I'm hearing conflicting stories on the issue. Lots of students seem to strive for it leading to a sense of competition. Will a student with a transcript full of P's be seriously disadvantaged? I'm quite unclear on this issue.