Guest druggist Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hello everyone, Well, instead of an ethical issue that arrives in a medical interview, I have one arriving in my life. I applied and have been offered a position in a Pharmacology lab for the summer, what I ultimately wanted to do for my third year summer. I have come to find out, however, that the position involves in vivo work--mouse surgery, stroke, and sacrifice. I am very much an animal lover--always had dogs, mine now is as important to me as a human life. Im struggling with this position--while it will look great on my CV and be incredibly educational and most likely contribute to the vast amount of medical research on stroke, it is still what it is--death of a soul. I realize the ethical statement that it is for "the better good" to do research on "rodents," yet I still struggle, in fact I felt myself short of breath a few times when I was in the room where the animals are kept. All the graduate students in the lab seem to think all is fine and dandy, with no real issues being present, I on the other hand am beginning to wonder if I can muster the strength to overcome this. Anyway, any thoughts on this issue--past experiences or just plain ethical statements may help me. Thanks alot Cheers Druggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hi there, It's a tough decision to make, but if you don't feel comfortable now and don't believe you could become comfortable working with the mice, then you certainly don't need to do it. Many won't. In fact, I was in a similar position a couple of years back when I interviewed a lab specializing in ovarian cancer research. Like you, I'm crazy for animals (years ago I was offered a job in a pet store but turned it down, figuring that I'd run out of money and space after not wishing to part with the various animalia and buying the inventory), and don't feel too comfy working on anything larger than Drosophila. When I interviewed at the lab, I asked what model we'd be working with and they noted that, although the mouse model was one that was used in the lab, I could also work with cell culture models. That was a great compromise. Perhaps there may be something similar, albeit a bit of a different project, in your lab? Another point, my boss (a burn surgeon) will not perform experiments on animals (it's part of his Buddhist philosophy), yet he still conducts a good bit of research in burn and wound healing. If animal experimentation has to be done (porcine models are often used due to their similar dermatological features) he has his residents tackle the projects. Cheers, and all the best with your decision, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shoopshoop Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Think of it this way...someday that mouse may unravel the mystery of strokes and save hundreds maybe thousands of suffering people's lives. Remember that many past diseases such as Polio would have probably remained epidemics till now with no known cure yet. Chemotherapy, organ transplants, joint replacements and antibiotics are just some of the breakthroughs thanks to these animals. If that mouse knows how much benefit he would offer to the vast human race than I think he would sacrifice himself willingly I agree that animal testing and surgery can also be very immoral at times. Do we really need that blue lipstick or waterproof blusher?! Heck no. How about for the benefit of the animals themselves? I forgot what the disease was called (I read a whole article about it) but it used to affect dogs in the UK and thousands would fall defenseless against the killer until a cure was found by animal research and testing. After that only a few hundred died the following years. So you see, there is an overall benefit to animal testing and research but of course it's not worth it for all fields. (such as cosmetics). Hope my humble opinion helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justanotherpremed Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 ahhh... but is it ethical to tell someone else to do it? nay :hat :smokin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hi there justanotherpremed, ahhh... but is it ethical to tell someone else to do it? nay If you're referring to my boss, he never forces any residents to do the animal research. He'll ask them if they fancy tackling such-and-such a project. If not, then there are plenty other projects around to which the resident may be better matched. Sorry, I should have added that fine point. :rolleyes Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest turtle Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 wow, this is quite the situation you have and i can see that you feel very strongly about it...as much as many people here may have varying opinions on the value of using animals for research, I don't think anyone can make this decision for you. And appeals to ethics are only going to complicate things; as you've already mentioned, an "ethical" response to this situation could go either way. You can appeal only to your own values and priorities and whatever decision you make will be the "right" decision if you can make it, accept it, and be proud of it. Now, besides the "all or nothing" approach, is there possibility for a compromise? Are there any other projects in this (or another) lab you could work on? Sorry, I know that probably didn't help... turtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest physiology Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hello there, I'm an undergraduate pharmacology student and we sacrifice animals of all sorts - cats, guinea pigs, mice, frogs, rats. The brutality that is involved in their killing, either for invitro or in vivo experiments is always difficult to deal with, but...in the end...you just get desensitized and "get used to it." If you wanna provide your email, we can talk more about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve U of T Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I've been conducting research on an animal surgical model (rats) for a while now, and before that, got experience with that in a lab course (working with frogs and rabbits). Personally, I think research is a nobler end to a life than slaughter for food. I have no problem eating meat, so I am perfectly fine with sacrificing animals for research, knowing it may some day reduce human mortality. Banting and Best wouldn't have been able to isolate and determine the effects of insulin without sacrificing a bunch of dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest druggist Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hello everyone, Thank you all so much for your replies, and quick replies at that. It is not possible for me to pursue a in vitro line of work in the lab--the lab focuses largely on in vivo work relating to stroke models--hypoxia, ischemia. I am only of interest to them because of my knowledge of pharmacokinetics, including movement of agents across the blood brain barrier. I have never partaken in a research position, and desperately would like to spend a summer in a lab. At the first sound of in vivo and "work with mice" I thought of it as really no big deal--after all, every biology/psychology/pharmacology/etc text contains tons of pictures of mice procedures. But, after you get in there you're hit with the reality that these are living beings! Kirsteen, have you ever worked with animals? Did you not have to do research with animals that year? A post doc I talked to the other day told me he found working with animals incredibly difficult at first--and that he continues to. So, without a compromise, Im stuck with thinking about this. I've already been accepted ot work in the lab, and I think it would be really poor for me to just turn around and quit on everyone >: . I just wonder if I can complete the work that will be done in the lab with some humanity--perhaps being kinder than others would be. Sorry for all this ethical BS Druggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marbledust Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hey Druggy, It's not ethical BS. Faced with the same dilemma I would feel similar. I turned down a wonderful research opportunity last summer because it involved pithing frogs. You aren't alone. marbledust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 I just hope we never have to worry about Dogs needing to sacrifice a lot of humans to find a cure for hip dysplasia. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hi again druggist, I was fortunate as the two models used most commonly in our lab were mice and cell lines. All of my work was centered around cell lines; therefore, although I saw other people working on mice, I never touched them. (Good one UWOMED2005. That is sort of reminiscent of Planet of the Apes. [shudder]) Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tweep0 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hey druggist, I understand your situation completely. I am a vegetarian partly because I do not like killing animals (if you are not a vegetarian, you may want to rethink why you do not want to do the lab work, but you accept eating meat). Anyway, I was offered a great research position with a renowned neurosurgeon. However, not only would I have to sacrifice (kill) many rats and mice, but I would also have to induce spinal cord injury which paralyzed the rats/mice from the fore-limbs down using surgery. I ended up taking the job and realized, first hand, how horrible it really was. In most labs, these animals are not treated like living creatures at all! If you are learning how to do surgeries on animals, you practice on many of them. A whole bunch of the animals die on the operating table. If the lab orders too many animals or they get too old, they are sacrificed because it costs money to keep them in the animal facilities. Basically, tons of animals are wasted. I gradually accepted the notion of experimentation on animals. It is very hard for me to justify this. However, I can tell you how I made it more 'humane' for the animals and more easy for my conscience. Some lab animals, especially rats, are very social and they become very comfortable with you if you spend time with them. If you take the time to pet them, feed them water, hold them, they really warm up to you. Once in a while i would bring them a treat (ie chocolate). They love the stuff. BUT, i would make sure it doesn't affect your research or is against the regulations of the animal facility. Its heartbreaking to hear a rat scream from pain/fear:( . By treating them with respect, you can greatly ease their pain/fear. More importantly, I would do a silent prayer before I sacrificed an animal. This was a way for me to remind myself of the value of the animal that I was about to sacrifice. It is horrible when you forget that you are killing an animal. You become too desensitized. I hope that never happens to me. Its a tough decision that only you can make. I think the best way for you to decide what is right for you is to experience it first hand and ask yourself if you are doing the right thing. Good luck with your decisions and your research. Tweep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 007 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Hi, I worked with live animals for the first time this week and I was definitely very nervous going in. However, I was able to do what was needed, as was my partner. My TA said that she couldn't even touch the rats the first time she did the lab, but after working with animals for a full day she was fine. I still don't think it's a pleasant experience, but apparently it does get better with time. You could always try it for a week and if you can't handle it and have to quit then, then you have to quit. Good luck! 007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mydream88 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Follow your heart. In this case, you are not wrong or right if you choose to not pursue this research opportunity. You may want to try it and find that you are stronger then you imagined about it and/or the animals do not seem to be suffering. I have a pet hamster (and a picture of him at my desk ), and recently updated my tetanus shot in order to work at the Humane Society as a 'rat visitor' and 'bunny cuddler' (no joke, check out their volunteer descriptions) but realized I couldn't go through with it because it would be too upsetting. I think you should do what you are comfortable doing. I am sure that there are more opportunities out there that you may be more comfortable doing. Or, perhaps you could talk to your supervisor-to-be and see if there is an aspect of this research that you could work on that doesn't involve animal sacrifice. I am sure that the sacrifice will not be in vain, however, this type of research is not down everyone's alley. mydream88 p.s. don't get me wrong though, I have the utmost respect for this form of research and realize the immensity of its value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest druggist Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Hello again, I have to say that I am extremely surprised at the replies that I received for this. Thank god they're supportive emails since I was very mixed up on this subject. I even pulled out a biomedical ethics book the other night and read a chapter the chapter concerning this topic. The debate was whether "speeciism" was right--speeciism being that one species, such as human beings, are supreme to other species, such as animals--mostly mice in the laboratory setting. Some strong arguments were made and even the strictest speeciist would have to admit that in vivo research using animal sacrifice must be done. The only other resort is to subject human beings to danger which is morally wrong. Granted, I being an animal lover, do not believe that people have the absolute right to go ahead and make the decision to use animals. What choice do we have? (also, I am NOT referring to lipstick trials, etc. as far as Im concerned, people should be able to survive with the colors that are already around). If medical research did not advance, not only would human lives not be saved, but animals would also die. Veterinarians use research done for humans and apply it to their animal patients. Meloxicam, a slightly selective COX-2 inhibitor is a perfect example. This drug was developed for use in humans to treat inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis (also used in OA, acute pain, etc.). However, vets use this drug to treat the same conditions in animals, such as dogs and cats. Before agents such as this dogs would have to resort to aspirin in their water (along with rum--depending on the vet). This subjected the animal to increased risk of GI bleeds--as aspirin is the most GI toxic drug of all NSAIDs. I guess Im trying to justify doing this research, but I also have a hard time with what this means. The sacrifice of a life--one that did not volunteer for the job. This essentially means that researchers are saying that animals do not possess moral rights. I don't know everyone. I think I may go ahead with the research, as I deem it important to medical knowledge. I believe that the thing that pushed me to try it was the knowledge of the "committee." This is a panel of individuals--vets, priests, MDs, scientists, and members of the community at large--that say whether something si "ethical" and if done will contribute to medical knowledge and not just be a waste of animal life. They ensure that the animals will not suffer (if that can be done--they refer to using general anesthetics, analgesics, and euthanol--a barbiturate hypnotic coma inducing agent). I guess Im still struggling, but starting to see why this sort of research needs to be done. Cheers everyone Druggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blinknoodle Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 I would highly recommend finding out exactly how the animals will be treated if you are at all uncertain about working conditions for them. I, too, have also been working directly with mice assessing a vaccine for tuberculosis. However unlike a previous post, since I set up my own experiments, I have never had to worry about sacrificing animals unnecessarily due to them getting too old or having too many. As well, I think you;d be surprised at all the regulations that are involved with animal research -- where I work, my animals need to be free of specific pathogens, so you have to completely gown up before you go in the room with them. I also never sacrifice my mice (or do any sort of procedures) unless they are under anesthesia. I'm not sure about losing many animals to surgery, since at my institution, if you lose any animal unexpectedly you must report it to the animal facility - if you lose too many during a specific procedure, something is wrong and they will help figure it out so that you don't lose lives unnecessarily. And if you are at all worried about torturing your animals to death (or that any intervention you give them could cause death), I doubt any institution will actually let them die -- you have to adhere to specific end points (ie. at a point where the animal looks like it will be dying - designated before research begins; ie. could be the size of a tumour if you are doing cancer research), you have to sacrifice them humanely before they die. Like you, I also has issues when I first began animal experimentation. To me, it also seemed like everyone in my lab was pretty nonchalant about it. I educated myself more about what the experimentation involved and exactly how I would be involved. I was really surprised about all the regulations in place at my institution, but I am so glad they exist. I treat my animals with complete respect and I find that because I do this, it works out better. You definitely don't want to be working with completely stressed animals. Anyhow, I hope this helps alleviate some of your concerns. Cheers, -blinknoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Here's an old thread in the Med Student's forum, which arose because UBC is/was one of three remaining Canadian medical schools to offer their students the opportunity to learn surgical techniques on live anesthestized pigs. UBC has since discontinued the practice due to issues with funding, and I'm certain that any negative public reaction to this probably would have accelerated that process. pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm31.showMessage?topicID=47.topic Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marbledust Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Hi mydream88, You mentioned you were going to volunteer at the Human society as a "rat visitor" and "bunny cuddler" but that you couldn't go through with it. I have been contemplating volunteering as a "cat cuddler" or "bunny exerciser." I have been hesitant because I have two cats and a rabbit myself. Did you actually do any of this type of volunteering? Or did you talk to somebody about the emotions and other things involved first and realized that it would be too difficult? I think it would be wonderful to be able to offer some affection and comfort to these animals (they are in great need of such volunteers), but I don't know if I could deal with the heartbreaking aspects of it. Do you have any other thoughts or experiences with the kind of volunteering? Cheers, Marbledust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mydream88 Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 cat cuddler and bunny exerciser sound like lots of fun! Though these job descriptions have very cute names, I agree with you that it is so important to offer this kind of service to animals at shelters. Even if we can't take them all home, at least we can try to improve their quality of life. I do hope that one day soon, I will have the courage to pursue such a volunteer opportunity. Unfortunately, I do not handle the prospect of animals treated unfairly or suffering very well. Thus, I had decided due to time constraints and my lack of guts, that I will hold off on volunteering with the Humane Society. Although I would like to mention that anyone I have spoken to that has volunteered there has always felt it to be a very gratifying and non-sad experience, so I encourage you marbledust to go for it! It's so kind of you to reach out to those animals. I do not imagine that you would see anything brutal, just a lot of cute unclaimed pets. It takes courage to do that type of service work, it's so great of you that you are going to pursue it Please keep us posted on your visits, it will probably result in a few more recruits have a good day, mydream88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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