Should I even bother applying?

[Guest Scholastica]

Hello,

 

I'm a fourth-year Honors Biochem student from the UWO. I am debating whether I should even bother applying to NOSM because I feel as if I have very little chance of getting in.

 

If I was not born/raised in the North, and if I have very little experience working in the rural areas, should I just apply to another out-of-province school instead of NOSM?

 

I am actually getting interested in rural medicine, yet I have no concrete experience to support it.. I have taken a few summer courses in rural areas, and have done some volunteer experiences in rural settings. However, those experiences last ed for a short time, and they weren't as substantial as my other extracurricular activities. I have a high GPA, but definitely not 4.0.

 

Any advice for me? Should I just save time and money on some other school?

[Guest Zuckman]

Hey guys,

I'm in the same predicament. I have no rural experience whatsoever and have lived in a city for my entire life. I have a very high gpa but I don't think that'll have much effect on an application to NOSM since basically half their requirement is for some rural experience. Not sure what to do.

Zuckerman

[Guest geekpunk]

Similar situation, but I lived in Timmins, ON for about 6 years when I was young. Have been out of there for about 10 years now. Not sure whether to apply. I've done a lot of volunteer work, the most noticeable would be in India this past summer, but with a population of over a billion people, it certainly wasn't in a rural setting! GPA is 3.75 and I'm an OOP. Apply or no?

[Guest NurseNathalie]

If you want to go...then apply... they don't have crystal balls- there's no hope in hell if you don't even try

 

 

first of all...as I said in another post: the stats for the following years will be very different than the charter class' stats...

 

2: one of the reasons that they are looking at ppl from northern/rural ontario, is that they tend to want to stay and work here. BUT the bottom objective: is getting health practitioners in Northern Ontario... if that's where you want to practice- APPLY, AND TELL THEM THAT (and genuinely support why you will stay afterwards)...

 

there are a lot of studies (check out CRaHNR's site: www.cranhr.ca/ ) about this. I would approach it from an 'evidence' point of view...if they say that x, y and z is why ppl don't stay in northern ontario to practice- I would state how they are not factors for me...etc...

not sure if it makes any sense... sorry.. was up really late lol

 

3. plus, did you notice how discouraged applicants are about NOSM? so many ppl are now saying: I'll never even have a chance, so why bother applying? this will increase the chance of those who apply: less competition...

 

i say: go for it!

but.... that's just me.

[Guest cracked30]

I imagine that the policy makers think that those taking people from the north and training them in the north will lead to them staying in the north.

 

I suggest that taking people from the south, then training them in the north would likely lead to them taking up practice in the north. But I don't know, I think the bureaucrats want to play this out, the data won't be available until 2011 (FP) and 2015 (specialist).

 

It seems like a nice idea, but there are shortages now all over Ontario, not just the north.

[Guest ploughboy]

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Hey cracked30,

 

Ya, I think that's exactly what they're counting on. Although there won't be data from NOSM any time soon, there is some indication in the literature that students of rural origin are more likely to practice rural medicine (see Rourke(1) and the references therein). I don't think it's too radical a notion to suggest that the same might be true of people from the north.

 

There's merit to your suggestion as well: rural exposure and training makes it more likely that students of urban origin will practice in rural areas (Rourke again - it's a good paper). It reminds me of my cousin's husband...He graduated med school and decided he wanted to practice small-town medicine for a couple of years before doing a psyche residency. So he moved to Owen Sound, met a local girl, raised a family, and 20 years later he *finally* went back to do that psyche residency. Perhaps the gv't should be setting up some sort of match-making service in conjunction with the LADAU etc? ;-0

 

Cheers,

 

pb

 

 

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(1) Rourke et al. Strategies to increase the enrolment of students of rural origin in medical school: recommendations from the Society of Rural Physicians of Canada

[Guest Axolotl]

I think that the failure of the NOMP is evidence enough that taking southern Ontario students (from UofT) does not translate into significantly more physicians being recruited and retained in Northern Ontario after graduation. Sure, some of them have stayed for a few years since they signed contracts which contained some nice incentives (tuition reimbursement). After these contracts are up, many have packed their bags and caught the next bus back to Toronto.

[Guest avisee]

Ehh.. after studying policy & working with policymakers, my conclusion is that they have no idea what they're doing anyway. They like to think they do everything on an evidence basis, but really all they're doing is measuring some indicator of reality and assuming it to be the absolute truth.

 

And then they throw a pile of money at it.

 

Sure, people from the north might be likely to return to the north if they have family up there, but they might be just as likely to do so if they trained in southern Ontario or Ottawa. Meanwhile, people from the south who've never been to the north but might be open to the idea of living there would probably be more likely to do so if they spent 4 years in school there than if they've graduated and someone is just throwing some extra money at them. Because at least when they've gone to school, they've made friends (maybe found a significant other) in the north, they're comfortable there and with the distance from family (or realize it's not for them) and so they're either going to stay and work there, or they're not going to accept the buyout just to work for 2 years before getitng homesick and moving back to Toronto.

[Guest anadaki]

Hi, I normally do not respond, but for all those wondering if they should apply because they are not from the north, well I am at NOSM and I am not from the North, nor am I from Ontario. Just keep your eye on the goal and life will work out, I never would of thought they would let me in, but they did. Good Luck

[Guest professore76]

Third time trying to post a message without any success. I hope getting into medical isn't as difficult. I'm a newbie to this site and this is my first and only time applying to medical school. After weeks of deliberation i decided to submit my application to NOSM over the other medical schools in Ontario. Although i have a much better shot at getting into Toronto, Ottawa or Mac i decided on NOSM because it's new, innovative, and i like NOSM's pedagogolical philosophy.

 

I was suprised to see so many people apply to NOSM this year. But i wonder how many urban residents applied to NOSM and how many of those individuals really want to study at NOSM? I don't believe that City Slickers really want to study at NOSM not because it's a mediocre institution but rather because they'll do anything to study medicine. Even if it means living in a small town in Northern Ontario for 4 years.

I also believe that the majority of urban students applying to NOSM were not HONEST in their autobiographical sketch.

 

I was born and raised in Toronto, i have no experience working in the North, but i sincerely want to work in smaller rural communities. The problem is - is that the admissions committee will have no way of ascertaining whether an urban student is truly passionate about working/ living in Northern Ontario. Therefore i'm not suprised so few, if any, urban individuals were accepted into the charter class.

 

I do believe, however, that the best 56 candidates were chosen to STAR in the charter class. Good luck to everyone and i hope all of you become fabulous doctors.

[Guest NurseNathalie]

I think most people are honest when saying they want to live/practice in Northern Ontario... but most often, what happens is people move here and have trouble ajusting to life in Northern Ontario. Its really a lot more than just the work- its the ajustment to the culture that people find difficult. I know it may sound 'weird' to some, because how different can it be if its all in Ontario ?? but anyone who has lived there knows how different it is- and its not everyone who is able/willing to live there long term and raise their families in those small communities!

 

I've seen it over and over again working up north! we frequently had new docs from southern ontario- and they just wouldn't last because they didn't like living in a small center. Being from northern ontario (or at least having spent some time in northern ontario) increases the likelihood that you will stay there afterwards.

[Guest iknowabc123]

I understand there is a need for physicians in rural areas of ontario...but I find it offensive that a school would put so much emphasis on where someone has grown up, (this also applies to other professional schools that reserve spots for minorities). I believe that being accepted into a professional school, whether it be medical school, dental school law school etc should be based soley on ability and not on other demographic factors. The goal is to produce professionals that are skillful and are passionate about what they do.

 

Putting priority on one student because of where they have grown up or other things of that nature is not the means to achieve this. There are some students out there who may not have grown up in a rural setting but who are highly qualified in pursuing a career in medicne and would love the opportunity to pratice medicine in low-populated regions of canada or even in other countries. Someone mentioned earlier that many people lied on their biographical sketch about wanting to practice medicine in rural areas...but I feel as though in a way they are forced to. There are so many applicants out there who are highly qualified, with a lot of experience but they cannot get into medical school. As a result they have to do whatever they can to get in (such as lying on a NOSM biographical sketch) because this whole putting priority on living in a rural setting doesn't make their situation any better.

 

I hope I'm not coming off as angry, because that's not my intention...but I'm really frustrated with this whole issue. And again, I also mention this type of "discrimination" occurs in other professional schools and especially in the US with the whole affirmative action and reserving spaces for african americans and awarding special scholarships to minorities as well. Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture or I'm viewing this matter in a one-dimensional way...but that's my opinion on the whole issue. Feel free to comment!

thanks!

 

[Guest Esquire]

Dear Iknowacb123,

 

The whole situation regarding affirmative action in the U.S. has been litigated up to the Supreme Court. Most notably in the popular Grutter v. Bollinger case where a University of Michigan law school applicant sued the school because they gave points to applicants based on race. The Supreme Court held in the school's favour, however, because they used a holistic review of each applicant and race wasn't a decisive factor of being admitted; instead, an applicant's entire profile was considered. Therefore, if any school admissions process considers applications solely based on race or ethnicity, then they get into trouble. The same probably goes for NOSM. If they only consider where you grew up or lived for an X number of years, without considering other factors, they would get into trouble. Scholarships are a little bit different since they are usually privately funded and are disseminated according to the grantor's criteria.

Nevertheless, I have skimmed through some of these forums and understand your frustration. I too have applied to NOSM after completing a U.S. and Canadian law degree, an undergrad degree, and a great deal of extra-curricular and volunteer activity. Unfortunately, I consider these med school applications to be more of a lottery ticket than anything else. Highly qualified candidates are being rejected because they don't meet certain cut-offs. I hear stories from our media of how we are facing a serious doctor shortage in this country, yet I only see med schools in Ontario increasing class sizes by ten spots, for example. I hear personal annecdotes from current med students who say that they receive piles of post-interview applications to screen and, instead of reading through the applications, they just choose the first ten (and not the ten best), for example. This is thoroughly unacceptable. In consideration of the money you pay for applying through OMSAS and for working hard in undergrad/grad, you have the right to receive a fair, thorough, and complete review of your application. Since, for the most part, the screening process is a mystery, you have to wonder if you are getting what you deserve when you apply to medical school. These problems aren't limited to a single school either.

You ought to keep your hope alive because the odds are still better than winning at 6/49 and be sure to have a back up plan.

[Guest anadaki]

Dear Iknowabc123

 

I am glad that NOSM is keeping ignorant people like you out. Yeah affirmative action.

[Guest Kidha]

I don't agree with Iknowabc123 with the affirmative action bit, but i certainly DO NOT agree with Anadaki for saying Iknowabc123's comment is ignorant. (note i know the term AA is perhaps not applicable to canada in the same as it is in the states).

 

Affirmative action debates are very real and there are indeed good arguments for both sides. I favor for affirmative action (that is my opinion and I can indeed back it up). But there are bigger questions here. Who should be entitled to recieve such a consideration in professional school applications? This is when it gets more interesting.

 

Minority's (chinese, east indians, middle eastern, etc)? 1st nations? Francophones?

 

My point is simpily that people are entitled to their opinion on an issue that is not as black and white as people like to believe it is. Personally I believe that seats ought to be reserved for 1st nation communities (my opinion on a condition as it stands today). By the way I represent a minority group in canada and I do not believe I should necessarily have advantage over someone else in the admissions game.

 

Play nice!

[Guest dayne67]

I was about to apply to NOSM last year, but I quickly changed my mind when I started to go through their supplementary application questions. I thought about the answers to their questions, but I had great difficulty answering them. For the most part, I couldn't come up with the honest compelling reasons that they were asking for in regards to wanting to go to their school.

 

I knew right there it was because I didn't have a desire to live and practice in small rural communities in the North. Moreover, I had never been to Northern Ontario. So, I just realized that the school wasn't right for me and that they would not accept me.

[Guest kahone]

Having met a few of the charter class of NOSM at TBay, let me point out that they, without exception, are the sort of capable, disciplined, motivated, responsible, mature,well-adjusted, pleasant, friendly, and compassionate people that Canadians want to be trained as doctors. Having taught anatomy in Phase I meds at Queen' for many moons (1999-2004) as a grad student, I've see a great many different "personalities" associated with med student classes. Those at NOSM are great candidates, AND they're from northern and rural areas (not just Ontario by the way). Believe me, they were well-screened for the suitability for medical training!

 

Speaking of suitability, lacking suitability for living in rural, remote and northern communities IS BAD if you think it is a trivial thing and go there. Even the folks at UBC's Northern Medical program (in Prince George, BC) made it very clear that if you are not accustomed to living in that sort of environment YOU SHOULD NOT ASSUME YOU WILL BE OK THERE. It is a different way of living and widely acknowledged that city folk can have a hard time. There's a reason why physicians from the South, working on 3yr contract in places like Geraldton leave and don't come back (as reported last year in the Star).

 

That applicants to NOSM are exceptional in all the ways you want med school applicants to be, AND have experiance and love of living and working in the North and/or rurally is proof-positive that this kind of initiative will probably work well longterm. What I find annoying is the cynism I've encountered in southern ontario about NOSM...the assumptions that the applicant lied and distorted parts of their applications to "play the game" to be more competitive; and that they will leave en masse for large centers. The people I have met have enough exceptional characteristics that they wouldn't need to fudge it. They have family, houses, history and roots in the theses places and except for some short-term periods (ie, residency, other post-grad training) I believe they are there to stay. That's the viewpoint of an outsider!

K

[Guest Matt66GT]

Not only are some of those students well intentioned as kahone mentioned, but they can also exhibit spells of narrowmindedness and spelling/grammatical errors. (see comments from anadaki)

 

I think anyone not from here, who simply assumes they wouldn't mind turning their life upside down to move and work here as a physician would be an in-then-gone doc, something we see far too much of already.

 

Now that the underserviced grant has been removed, there is no financial incentive to move to little town, Northern Ontario and set up practice.

 

Anyone who thinks that 100% of the "future" physicians in NOSM will stay is mistaken. While that is the goal, despite the mandate of the Board, etc., etc., some of them will leave. As it stands they hedge their bets and do the best they can in hopes that down the road these people will provide the doctors that serve the north.

 

When pro sports teams approach a draft they try to draft the best player available, regardless of fit for the team.

 

NOSM didn't do this - they took the 56 they thought best fit their criteria. And good for them, they have a mandate to fill.

 

Some who are genuinely qualified will not get in. And thats a real shame. Some who are already in will show disdain towards those who slag the process and that's also shameful. The process isn't perfect and it never will be - there will always be those who would make great docs who get turned down and go on to other successful careers. The caveat being the opposite is also true.

[Guest Kidha]

Well Put Matt!

 

It is most likely that people trained from the region will stay in the region. But there are no guarantees that will indeed be the case. NOSM is just doing what they think will maximize retention in the area.

 

Let's face the facts! Forget about getting northern kids to stay in the north to practice. Canada is having problems keeping Canadian trained doctors in Canadian urban centres. I know of a few people from BC going to UBC that are writing their USMLE's as their graduation dates approach. Also I have heard of people up in Prince George (extension of ubc medical school up north at UNBC) that are counting the days till their degrees are done so they can get out.

 

Undoubtedly, there are probably some NOSM students that are doing the same this very minute (as matt said).

 

What NOSM is doing is playing the probablity game by recruiting rural students. That's the best they can do. I wish them all the success in their goals.

 

One comment though before i jet! I do wish that NOSM was a bit more explicit on their website on the advantage of northern rural Ontario kids verses people from other rural communities. If you read the website it seems like that anyone from rural canada has equal weighting. After getting my review from last year I learned that is probably not true. Which is okay! I mean let's face it....we have provincial resident spots in almost every school (except Queens maybe) and we don't complain about that. I simpily wish they would be a bit more open about it.

 

All the best to you guys this year. I have applied this year as well maybe we will meet somewhere in the north of Ontario.

[Guest Esquire]

First of all, it's foolish to apply to NOSM if you don't have any intention of working in northern Ontario or, perhaps, if you've never been there before. In fact, I hope (and expect) that all urban applicants to NOSM have made an informed and well-reasoned decision. You will spend a least four years of your life there in a program specifically catered to rural medicine. Also, like the previous posts suggest, the applications committee will play the probabilities and possibilities game. Unfortunately, there are never certainties in such a process and there never can be. Quite conceivably, all of NOSM's rural students could end up leaving for urban centres while the urban students remain in the north (it's possible, though improbable).

Nevertheless, there will be urban students who WILL practice or WISH to practice up there and to make any suggestion, albeit implicit, that northern Ontario is an entirely different world is wrong and it does a disservice to those people and their communities. The culture is the same as the rest of Canada - it's not as if you are being dropped off in the middle of Karbala, Iraq and told to fend for yourself. Moreover, there are exciting opportunities found at no other medical school or community (at least rearely). For example, you have more exposure to Aboriginal people and their culture and, because of the school's curriculum, your clinical skills will undoubtedy become top-notch.

I say, if you're from an urban centre, and you've done your due diligence, and sincerely see yourself practicing in rural Ontario, then appy to NOSM.

[Guest Ronin]

If you're from urban Ontario, there are already (statistically speaking) 5 medical schools that favour people with your demographics.

 

In total, U of T, UWO, McMaster, U of O, and Queen's take a disproportionate amount of students who were raised in urban centre. They accept about 700 students every year. NOSM accepts what, 50?

 

You can hardly call it an injustice.

[Guest kahone]

56 at NOSM.

And that is a seriously good point.

Injustice indeed.

As David Brent would say: "Ge' ovah i', yeah?"

[Guest Icarus07]

I just wanted to give a little reassurance to all the applicants who check this forum. I'm a student in the charter class and I've been helping review applications this year. I can tell you that this year there were many people put a lot time, thought and effort into reviewing your personal sketch and essay questions. (Some of us even sacrificed far too much study time.)

 

Someone was questioning earlier in this thread about whether you get what you pay for when you apply to medical school. I can't speak for other medical schools in the province but you certainly do when you apply to NOSM.

 

There isn't a whole lot of luck involved in the application process. All medical schools will be forced to turn away many qualified applicants, however, if you're a serious applicant you can rest assured that your chances are much better than the 6/49.

[Guest Esquire]

Dear Icarus,

 

Thank you for the reassurances. I am glad you guys at NOSM are putting in the effort and I hope that this tradition will continue beyond the Charter class. You were once in the same spot that current applicants are in and surely you appreciate the time these applications take to complete. Obviously, they take a lot of time to review as well; and, given the amount of applications received by NOSM, your efforts are particularly appreciated.

Insofar as getting what you pay for, I was referring to those schools engaged in selecting random applicants from the post-interview group (. . . and/or other such unhealthy practices). Perhaps I shouldn't have posted the comment under the NOSM forum as it did not involve NOSM in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it was done by second year students and NOSM doesn't have second year med students yet.

Sorry if that post had a negative tone, but it is easy to become embittered when you hear of such things happening. Nevertheless, I'm glad you guys put in a genuine effort into reviewing the applications.

[Guest Icarus07]

Thanks, Esquire. No, you're comment wasn't taken negatively and I knew it certainly didn't apply to NOSM. I just wanted to make sure that all the current NOSM applicants knew that's not how we're doing things and the time and money you put into your applications wasn't wasted.