Should I even bother applying?

[Guest professore76]

Thanks Nurse Nathalie. Never thought of it that way. Hope you're all having fun. And of course i was kidding.

[Guest NurseNathalie]

I'm finding it really difficult to beleive that reviewers would randomly pick applicants out of a pile, in the selection process! please, don't misunderstand me here- I'm not saying you are not telling the truth! not at all- I'm just wondering if perhaps you were told that after post-interview ruminations by a bitter person? Might I remind everyone that this is exactly how urban legends get started! "a friend of mine .. this guy I know... last year they... I hear that they"..

 

First of all, not to say its impossible that anyone would do that... maybe highly unlikely. Students who get involved in grading submissions are volunteers and receive adequate training. If they hated it that clearly, why would they do it? Generally speaking, there is support from the school. If you get to the point that you cannot read another submission- there are others to do it- and they tell you that during training. I think for the most part, students who decide they want to be involved are genuine about the process and about doing the best job possible.

 

Also should be noted that most schools have more than one person reviewing each application.... so even if someone was to rate applicants by randomly picking them from a pile, that would only be one part of the overall points.

 

2) professore76- I know you are 'kidding'(?)... but I feel you are compromising your integrity by asking those questions to someone who you now know is a reviewer! I think you should call the school with your specific questions, or wait to find out at the same time as everyone else. You never know who reads these posts ...and it puts icarus in a bad position-

 

3) lastly: anyone who has ever lived in Northern Ontario KNOWS its very different than urban ontario.. very very different! (not better, not worse- just different). I found that the MMI scenarios were well formulated for drawing from those northern experiences ! well done, NOSM!

[Guest iknowabc123]

"Dear Anadaki"

 

you probably would have decided to call me a more childish name...but decided to try to come across as smart...but rest assured you're not fooling anyone

 

 

As far as I am concerned...you lack credibility...

 

I have researched a variety of medical schools in both canada and the US as well as other professional schools...I'm just like everyone else...I have no insider information about the application process and my opinion is based on experiences of others...furthermore, my sister is a 3rd year med student and I have also learned a lot from her experiences ofapplying to various medical schools...next time you decide to call me ignorant or anyone else for that matter...at least back it up...

 

As well...I mentioned in my response that affirmative action is AMERICAN ONLY

It seems like someone needs to brush up on their reading skills..

[Guest iknowabc123]

esquire and kidha thanks for the responses..

[Guest Axolotl]

Esquire,

 

I am surprised at your comment that the culture if northern Ontario is the same as that of southern Ontario. It is obvious to me that you have never spent any time on a northern aboriginal reserve and have no idea about the unique issues that are faced in their communities.

[Guest professore76]

HI: Whether the north is different that the south, i just want to get into NOSM. Can't we all just get along? I want to be judged on my ability to become an effective physician and scientist, but also be challenged by the admissions committee as to whether i really want to live in smaller and sometimes isolated communities. The answer is yes! As long as i have my internet - i will happily live anywhere. Please, please, please give me an interview LOL. I hope that the best 56 candidates get into NOSM this year. Can i please be 1 of 56, 1 out of 2,100. Hook a brother up!

Sincerely,

TheFirstTorontonianToGraduateFromNOSMClassof2010MaybeIfTheHigherPowerAndTheAdmissionsCommitteeHelpsMeOut

 

Goodluck to everyone that applied.

[Guest peachy]

In total, U of T, UWO, McMaster, U of O, and Queen's take a disproportionate amount of students who were raised in urban centre. They accept about 700 students every year. NOSM accepts what, 50? You can hardly call it an injustice.

I don't think that's a fair statement at all. Rural students are not disadvantaged in the admissions process in the other five medical schools. If anything, they have an advantage; the other Ontario medical schools also wish to train a variety of doctors, and I suspect that it "looks good" to have a compelling argument that you will return to a rural community even for those other schools.

 

True, they take a large number of students who were raised in urban centres, but to say that it is "disproportionate" implies that this is out of balance with their applicant pool. Obviously, U of T, for example, is going to get more urban applicants than rural ones, simply because far more of Canada's population lives in urban centres! I would be shocked to find out that the other schools discriminated against rural students; do you have a reference for this, or was it just an assumption?

 

Thus there is no "advantage" to being from an urban centre when applying to any Ontario school, but there is a significant advantage to being from a rural town when applying to NOMS.

 

One question I keep wondering when reading these posts: what is the diversity of NOSM's charter class like? Is there a mix of people from different ethnic backgrounds?

[Guest Ronin]

Hi Peachy,

 

This is where I got my info from.

 

www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/a...f_ipsecsha

 

Here is the meat of the argument

 

Responses were obtained from 981 (80.2%) of 1223 first-year medical students. There were similar numbers of male and female students (51.1% female), with 65% aged 20 to 24 years. Although there were more people from visible minorities in medical school than in the Canadian population (32.4% v. 20.0%) (p < 0.001), certain minority groups (black and Aboriginal) were underrepresented, and others (Chinese, South Asian) were overrepresented. Medical students were less likely than the Canadian population to come from rural areas (10.8% v. 22.4%) (p < 0.001) and were more likely to have higher socioeconomic status, as measured by parents' education (39.0% of fathers and 19.4% of mothers had a master's or doctoral degree, as compared with 6.6% and 3.0% respectively of the Canadian population aged 45 to 64), parents' occupation (69.3% of fathers and 48.7% of mothers were professionals or high-level managers, as compared with 12.0% of Canadians) and household income (15.4% of parents had annual household incomes less than $40 000, as compared with 39.7% of Canadian households; 17.0% of parents had household incomes greater than $160 000, as compared with 2.7% of Canadian households with an income greater than $150 000).

 

Of course, most literature on this topic points out that it's not neccessarily an admissions bias, since there are actually fewer rural applicants (proportionally). But it begs the question of the root cause. Why aren't rural students interested in medicine? Why aren't they applying to medical school?

 

I'm not saying that the major Canadian medical schools have an explicit bias against rural applicants (or converesely, give extra consideration to urban applicants), but the fact remains that rural Canadians are underrepresented in the medical community.

[Guest peachy]

Yes, that's a good point, and I agree. Rural Canadians are underrepresented in medicine.

 

But still, I think it's unfair to imply that urban applicants have some kind of unpublished "advantage" in the application process at the other schools which is now being balanced by the official rural "advantage" at NOSM . Given the existence of NOSM, rural applicants have a distinct advantage overall in the Ontario applications process. They probably had a (less distinct) advantage even before the creation of NOSM. (Unless, I suppose, the existence of NOSM suddenly sparked a significant increase in the number of rural applicants.) That's where the arguments of "injustice" towards urban applicants are coming from.

 

One might or might not believe that it's a good thing for there to be an advantage for rural students. But, I don't think that it's fair to argue that the advantage doesn't exist, imho.

 

It would be interesting to know if rural Canadians are still underrepresented when socioeconomic status and ethnic background (etc) are taken into account, it seems like the disparities in those categories would explain away a lot of the underrepresentation.

[Guest Esquire]

Dear Axolotl,

 

While I don't disagree with you that "northern Aboriginal reserves" encounter unique issues, you must obviously know that Aboriginal people (and Aboriginal reserves) aren't exclusive to northern Ontario. If you are saying I don't know anything about northern Aboriginal issues and culture, that's one thing. If you are saying I don't know anything about Aboriginal issues and culture altogether, that's another. By the language you used, I'll assume you mean the former. In that case, you are probably right; I'm not very knowledgeable about issues uniquely facing northern Aboriginal peoples - at least to the extent that I have no firsthand knowledge of the issues. In fact, in one of my replies on this thread, I specifically mentioned the unique opportunity to learn more about Aboriginal issues given the fact that NOSM encourages close contact with Aboriginal communities.

Notwithstanding, when I referred to the cultural differences between the north and the south, I was speaking in general terms. Fundamentally, the cultures are the same: they are inherently Canadian in nature. This means there will be a certain amount of ethnic differences, racial differences, and religious differences that, as a Canadian, you will be exposed to and which, in all fairness, should not be overwhelmingly insurmountable.

There are unique issues faced by many communities in this province. If you were from the north coming to study at U of T, I would not ask or wonder if you knew anything about the Somalian community, for example.

Again, I daresay, that the culture in northern Ontario is the same as or similar to any other area of Ontario. Culturally, it's as unique as any and it should not prove to be a problem for any conscientious Canadian.

[Guest Icarus07]

Peachy

 

I believe that some of the "advantages" that residents of urban Ontario have had in the past are discussed in the same article that Ronin cited. It is not that admissions committees in the past intentionally selected against rural applicants, but rather that some of the volunteer and clinical opportunities urban students have access to give them an advantage over students growing up in rural areas. I believe that there are other associated factors, but that was one that sprung to mind.

 

Edit - It appears that this isn't the article I was thinking of. It does make reference to modifying the admission process to reflect the "unconventional background" of rural students. There is a CMAJ article that spells out the issues surrounding underepresentation of rural Canadians in medicine in more detail. If I track it down I'll be sure and post it.

[Guest Icarus07]

Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to have a look at Prof76's offer before it was edited out. Don't worry NN, even if it hadn't have been a joke, I made sure I didn't mention the admission process until well after I was finished with my applications.

[Guest ploughboy]

Is this it, Icarus?

[Guest professore76]

Hello: I offered to buy Icarus07 a coffee everyday for a year if i was granted an interview. Obviously it was a joke! Just trying to relieve stress during these stressful times. And it's clear that no one individual has the power to grant me an invitation, other than GOD, of course.

 

I say we have a group HUG and then let's all get to work on getting me an interview in late-March or Early April.

Goodluck everyone.

 

How's the curriculum over there at NOSM? Are Facutly members approachable/helpful? How are you all finding the small group learning environments? I imagine that not everyone is doing well under this education paradigm? How can it be improved?

[Guest NurseNathalie]

Prof, first of all... I do beleive you were kidding. But I want to thank you for acknowledging that it could have been seen differently by others and for editing your post. That was very considerate of you

 

I guess I just wanted to remind everyone that although we can be somewhat anonymous on here (well.. some of us less than others! umm- maybe my name is really George- and I was really a plumber in my Premed life ) ) its not totally impossible for someone somewhere to put two and two together ... ya just neva know!

 

 

in regards to the admissions criteria for urban medical schools... they all have an interest in increasing the numbers of physicians that will practice in rural and underserviced areas... It's a national issue!

BUT when you look at the admissions PROCESS itself, and those things that they look for in an applicant (to bring you in for the interview)- THAT's where ppl from Northern Ontario can't remain competitive BECAUSE the culture is very different (we think differently, we communicate differently - especially with aboriginal and francophone cultural backgrounds)... and so its more difficult for us when assessed with the same criteria.

 

we are just as capable, we are just as intelligent, and we do as well in the programs- but standing out of the croud on paper (in 700 words or less) is more challenging. I know its not the rule for everyone of course! but there is a lot of evidence out there to support this.. and I beleive this is a factor influencing why we are under-represented in the southern medical schools. We apply- its just harder for us to get those interviews because the tool that is used to assess us, is not necessariy the best for us... and adcoms are not always culturally sensitive to pick up the subtleties. This is why NOSM came to be...

 

I understand it is frustrating! but we also have to get our 'macro' lens out here... why this new school? there hasn't been a new medical school in what, 50 years? we all know the population is greater in southern ont. so why approve (and spend all this money on) a Northern school?? because of the research! Its more effective to train ppl FROM here, that will STAY here... and the southern schools have not been working in producing docs that will come here. I have worked with enough funded agencies to understand that NOSM had to PROVE that it was needed, and must continue to meet its mandate because it is the reason its there to begin with. Its all about money, funding, research and justifying its existence based on research. okay, said Enough

 

just my two cents! (um..maybe more like a buck 25! sorry! )

[Guest dho]

Nurse Nathlie this is what you said:

 

"THAT's where ppl from Northern Ontario can't remain competitive BECAUSE the culture is very different (we think differently, we communicate differently - especially with aboriginal and francophone cultural backgrounds)... and so its more difficult for us when assessed with the same criteria."

 

I was wondering how everyone here would feel if we opened up a medical school just for Chinese students. I mean if we think that people from northern ontario (who might have been here for 3 generations) feel that they are somehow disadvantaged in the admissions cycle, then certainly

our recently arrived immigrants are being totally screwed. No offense though I have visited Northern Ontario a few times and I do not find it to be as culturally distinct as people like to think it is (yes there are many different cultures), Show me one area in Canada that is not!

 

As far as being disadvantaged at urban medical schools cause you are from Northern Ontario, I think there might be some truth to that (not a whole lot though). However, I am sure that people from Northern Ontario have gotten into urban schools. Am I right people?

 

What does it take to get into medical school? I don't know too much as I am a predent student. However, I have many friends that have applied to medical school (plus i have seen score sheets from universities across canada that have been returned to applicants) and this is what it takes in most cases. High GPA (that a rural student can get), good MCAT scores (that a rural student can get), volunteer work (that a rural student can get), good interview score......if you speak english you can communicate. (Don't forget that there are schools that Francophone students can apply to).

 

The only disadvatage that I see ..... Moving from rural area to study in the urban centre for the first time requires tremendous adjustment. Grades suffer in the first few years for these undergrad students that will cause problems when applying to professional schools. I moved from a town of 4000 to a big city. Very tough adjustment.

 

I still remember how many people wanted to leave the rural community that I grew up in after they were done high school. They grew up there all their lives and why did they want to leave? Urban settings are more appealing to a younger population and that statement is well documented. I still bet that people that got into a urban medical school and NOSM took off and went to the urban school. I bet that almost every student that was offered a place elsewhere took it. Why? there are possibly many reasons...one is probably they rather live in urban centre. You see its ticking in there mind...."will I have better opportunities for education in a urban centre..ie more exposure....better equipment...better place to make connections for those ever so long residency days?" I'M NOT SAYING ALL, BUT A MAJORITY.

 

What should be really interesting is where the current students from NOSM will want to pursue their residencies. I honestly do hope that it is in the NOrth or that they plan to return to the North. I do understand the situation of rural canada and health care access. Let the experiment continue.....Peace

[Guest jeffpr]

It took a long time to read through this thread. I have nothing to add to the discussion, just a comment on the participants. Very good arguments have been made on both sides (if there are two sides to this debate), and I must admit it is one of the most mature threads I have ever read. Barring a few comments, everyone has remained civilized and respected other people opinions, acknowledging when a good point has been made.

 

I can't resist making one comment. It is a very touchy subject when you start talking about preferences given to groups based on ethnicity, race, minority, etc. NOSM exists as part of a project to address the problem of physician "retainability" in northern Ontario. Are they discriminating against an urban population in their admissions guideline? I do not think so. They are an institution, a business if you will, and if you want to hire an accountant, you are not going to interview a construction worker for the job.

 

While the example is an oversimplification, my point is clear. As people said before, it is an experiment that will continue without any real results until the class of 2005 graduates in 2009, does a 2 year residency and then writes their liscensing exams. Until then, there will be no conclusions to draw, only speculation. The admissions committee does take a big chance in the final 56 people they choose, and unfortunately for city slickers, there is a better chance you will stay in northern Ontario if you are from northern Ontario. This is why it is an advantage to be from a rural community and I agree with NOSM for their preferences to these candidates.

[Guest kahone]

The point of NOSM isn't about advantages and disadvantages in the Admissions procedures. It has been well described that advanced training of people in a rural/remote area is beneficial..the Dean, Roger Strasser, was likely chosen for experiences in bringing training (ie medical school) to rural and remote areas. Guess what? Train qualified people there and lo! they tend to stay in such areas.

 

Quote:

What should be really interesting is where the current students from NOSM will want to pursue their residencies. I honestly do hope that it is in the NOrth or that they plan to return to the North. I do understand the situation of rural canada and health care access. Let the experiment continue.....

 

That will be interesting; certainly, as others have previously stated, longterm there isn't the # and variety of residency positions north of Muskoka to support the whole class, plus everyone else in the country. Over the years, many will have to to train elsewhere in a variety of settings (note that certainly doesn't mean they'll ALL be going to Toronto, London, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, etc etc.). But the smart money would see the majority heading back up north. This situation is also weighing on the UBC folk since (another program with a northern/rural/remote training opportunity! Do the naysayers think there's a good rationale for this or what??) they'll be graduating students on a curve that exceeds the growth of residency positions in Canada - this was at least acknowledged last year at the interview weekend...something they continue to "work on"

 

K

[Guest professore76]

Top 10 reasons to study at NOSM and live in Northern Ontario.....

 

#10 - At Christmas Santa Claus delivers gifts to you first!

 

#9 - No highway traffic as you snowmobile over to your cottage (environmentally friendly)

 

#8 - 1 season (Winter, Still Winter, Not Winter, and Almost Winter).

 

#7 - Cone-sicles all year round.

 

anyone else care to add to the list?

[Guest drcave]

#6 No need to inject local anesthetics, just stick body part to be frozen out the window for 30 seconds and wait for frostbite to set in.

 

But seriously, I grew up in Fort Frances Ontario, population 8500 and there are lots of real reasons that Northern Ontario is a great place to live. I now live in Port Hardy BC, population 4500, and I know that I am a small town boy through and through.

 

Here is my own list of what is great about northern ontario

 

1) Lakes. Everywhere. So many lakes. If you like to fish, canoe, boat, explore, waterski, swim, snorkel, relax on a beach with a campfire and listen to the loons (the loons are what I miss most) then you can't beat Northern Ontario (NO). Just look at a map and try to count the lakes. As a physician you could have a beautiful cabin on your own private lake. What more could you ask for?

 

2) Trees. Everywhere. So many trees. If you like to hike, hunt, explore, there are huge tracts of uninhabited land covered with forest. Get your 4X4/quad/snowmobile and hit the logging roads you never know what you will find.

 

3) Rocks. Everywhere. So many rocks. The Canadian Shield is a beautiful landscape, If you like to boulder, climb, paint, hike, there are lots of interesting rocks.

 

4) Traffic. Nowhere. So little traffic. God I hate traffic. Port Hardy doesn't even have a traffic light, like many NO towns.

Who wants to spend 1-2 hours a day for the rest of their life in awful, stressful, pollution-filled traffic.

 

5) Community. In the big city there is anonymity, not so in small town, there is no hiding, it's like Cheers " I wanna go where everybody knows my name". So make the best of it and get involved in the community. Go to socials (open wedding receptions where the bride and groom make enough money from liquor sales to go on a honey moon), go to the supermarket and see 20 of your friends, enjoy gossiping about your neighbours (bwahahaha).

 

6) Solitude. Enjoy the wilderness. Go on a week long canoe trip through 10 different lakes and don't see another soul for the whole time. Then drive the 30 minutes back to your house.

 

Personally, I don't want to spend four years of my life in Toronto, Hamilton, or some other stinky, polluted, traffic infested city surrounded by suburbs for 2 hours in all directions, it's my idea of hell but I'll do it if that's what it takes to be an MD.

[Guest heho]

Drcave,

if, by chance, you do have to spend your medschool years in one of these cities, as a "city girl", let me reassure you.

 

Toronto HAS beautiful parks, where you can hike and canoe and fish. It' just that most people don't bother to find out about them.

 

Hamilton is near the escarpment, which is stunning, and offers lots of hiking, cross country skiing, and climbing opportunities. Hell, there are profs at McMaster you ski into class (when there is snow).

 

And you'll find a sense of community everywhere you go. Cities are made up of lots of little communities.

 

A little off topic, but I'd hate to see you start off in a city not knowing that much that you love aboutthe north can be found down here.

 

(To top it all of, both cities are terribly mutlicultural, so there's plenty of new foods to try, amongst other things.)

 

Both small towns and cities have a lot to offer, and I'd hate to see people discount one...

However, one large drawback of southern Ontario right now... WHERE IS THE SNOW?

[Guest ella29]

haha, don't kid yourself Heho! Although cities are great and exciting, and I know you can do some of the stereotypical 'outdoors' stuff, but it just isn't the same as waking up and seeing the wildnerness in your back yard!

 

I think the one thing that drives me most crazy while I live in cities, is the noise pollution! The cars, the buses, the alarms! I love the sound of silence!

 

Although, I will admit that I am biased towards noise because my building overlooks a fire department! haha

[Guest Esquire]

I lived in Windsor for the past three years because of school and, let me tell you, I do not want to live in another polluted environment.

I used to live near the Ford casting plant and I swear to you that I was woken up most days, not by my alarm, but rather by the intense smell of pollutants coming from outside my apartment. Not only that but insurance adjustors would call people within a certain area of the casting plant offering them a free car wash. Apparently, the casting plant emitted some sort of particles that would stick to your car. And, indeed, if you rubbed your hand on your car, you could feel rough fragments. I'm glad to see that someone cared about my car's paint job rather than the stuff I was breathing into my lungs.

How's that for city living?

[Guest NurseNathalie]

Hope everyone had a great weekend and enjoyed all the snow! woohoo- was that crazy or what!

 

in regards to my last post... I was just trying to offer possible 'reasons' for establishing NOSM (based on research I have read, and many key people I spoke with).. we can agree to disagree on some of the points- but at least we can all agree that its wonderful there is ONE more medical school in Ontario !

 

 

good luck to all the applicants from this cycle!

 

Nat