Guest UOMeds05 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi all, As I am sure that you are all aware, medical school tuition fees (at least in Ontario) have for the last few years been deregulated and have sky-rocketed. Currently, recieving full provincial and federal government funding/loans combined will cover not more than only 2/3 of tuition (if you are lucky), leaving the rest, including living expenses and all other misc to be financed by some other means (parents, banks, etc.). As a medical student, I am curious to know if these facts have deterred you, a potential medical student, from applying and attaining a career in medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MayFlower1 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 UOmeds05, My humble opinion on the matter is quite simple...if tuition is 5K or 15K, it doesn't really matter that much...there are great lines of credit out there...also, being in debt to the tune of 100K or 150K after med school and residency is really a non-meaningfull difference. It's taken my wife just over a year to pay off her 100K line of credit...and at the same time she has invested about another 250K (split with an associate) in her new practice. I think if you're serious about medicine debt will just be a fact of life...you just have to resign yourself to the fact that you will be living in it until you've been practicing for a year or two...unless, of course, you are fortunate enough to be rich... ...just my two cents. Unless it wasn't blatently obvious...to answer your original question...money is really no barrier for me with respect to wanting to enter med school...oh, and by the way...in my case it's actually much worse than that as I'll be leaving a 100K/year job to go back to school...if you do the math I'll actually be in debt (theoretically) 150K plus 6 years at 100K for a grand total of 3/4 of a mil...am I crazy? Perhaps...but this is really what I want to do. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PhantomPhoenix Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I figure u can pay it back during residency depending how much ur in debt. Assuming I get into Med school, I will probably be doing 5 yrs of residency. I think I will have enough saved up to pay for the first two yrs of med. 3+ summers of work should cover the 3rd and I will be in debt for sure for the last yr. Then use the first yr residency salary to bail me out. As u can tell...this has been spinning in my head for some time, hopefully tuition doesn't keep escalating ...otherwise my finance plan won't have a chance. My wish is that tution remains stagnant and residency salaries escalate...it is sure nice to dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest therealcrackers Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Your first year residency salary will be between $36 and $44K depending on where you are doing your training. This rises between $2-3K per year thereafter until you finish residency. Principal payments on students loans and lines of credit typically kick in six months after graduation. These are other important parts of the financial equation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tantastic Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi Mayflower I'm not trying to dispute what you are saying, I'm just trying to figure out where you are getting these numbers. Previously you claimed that your wife earned 100K after tax and expenses per year. So How did she pay a loan of 150K in just over a year in addition to investing 250K (lets assume 4 partners) 65K. It just doesn't make sense at all. I know a couple of family physicians (ie my dad and my brother who just graduated 3 years ago) and they say that most new grads are stuggling with the debt. There is something known as a early graduate clawback that prorates your billing fees in accordance to the years in practice. This coupled with the fact that ever increasing overhead costs and really low billing rates (ie 5$ for a needle) in addition to flat fee service has got docs feeling the squeeze. Health Canada also issued a report (I had to review it for my health economics course) that there will be a push to reduce flat fee service amounts in order to increase the number of doctors but keep the funding at around the same level (ie. same size pie more people eating at it, so make the pieces smaller). That will see salaries drop even further. There is big support for this from the gov't and the public as there is a perception that doctors have had it too good for too long (my dad is outraged at that). The big incentive to squeeze the docs comes from the fact that the fear of doctors defecting in mass amounts to the States is virtually eliminated thanks to HMO's and skyrocketing malpractice crushing salaries. Also there are enough apps to med school that even if they lost the money hungry ones there would be plenty of (aruably better doc's) to take their spot. Again not my opinions (I want to go do med school regardless of the compensation level), but it was really interesting to do the study and see what the medical system is headed for. Crazy Gov't always causing trouble :rolleyes Take care all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MayFlower1 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 tantastic, I'm not trying to dispute what you are saying, I'm just trying to figure out where you are getting these numbers. Previously you claimed that your wife earned 100K after tax and expenses per year. So How did she pay a loan of 150K in just over a year in addition to investing 250K (lets assume 4 partners) 65K. It just doesn't make sense at all. Hey, don't worry about questionning anything I post...that's why these boards are interactive! You'll never offend me by anything you post. Sorry, I wasn't implying that the 250K was paid off...it's actually a brand new debt The point of bringing up the 250K was that debt as a med student and as a graduated and practicing physician are inevitable parts of life...so if you're planning on staying on the medicine track...well, unless you're rich, get used to this fact! We'll be in debt for at least the next 5 years (i.e., to pay off the initial business expense and also grow it to the size it needs to be (i.e., at least 4 docs...total EMR). There are only 2 partners in the practice at present (my wife and another doc) and they are each in the hole for about 250K which includes the renovation of the space, new equipment, etc., etc. With respect to paying off her line of credit...if you look at the original post I mentioned that she was in debt for about $100K after medical school and residency...that's taken her since she finished residency to pay off (about 1.25 years). The first 6 months or so after residency she was doing locums which paid a significant amount...all that money was socked away...she has been busting her butt since opening up her new practice and also socking that money away. Also, remember we are a two income family...I have a great salary (until, of course I go back to school ) and have been able to support the bulk of our living expenses while the debt is being paid off. I mentioned the 150K only to say...whether you're in debt 100K (like my wife) or 150K (perhaps closer to the figure I would be in debt by the time I finished given rising tuition, etc) it really doesn't matter because, as a new physician you're bound to be in debt for at least 5 years or so anyway...and that's assuming that fee structures don't change horribly. With respect to the following: There is something known as a early graduate clawback that prorates your billing fees in accordance to the years in practice. This coupled with the fact that ever increasing overhead costs and really low billing rates (ie 5$ for a needle) in addition to flat fee service has got docs feeling the squeeze. I've not heard of this early graduate clawback...is this new? My wife has only been practicing for about 1.25 years and has not been subjected to this...she gets the same pay as any other doc. Typical billing per patient is around 30 bucks. Also...where did the $5.00 per needle come from? EDIT: Ooops...the 1.82 is for a urine analysis...I apologize...we get three-something for an injection...but the same goes for a second injection during a visit. Who ever gave you that info is incorrect assuming they are quoting Ontario rates...I believe we get about $1.82 for a single injection...and if a patient requires a second injection during the same visit we aren't paid for it. Yes, the rates per procedure/visit aren't great...but if you're efficient they're not too bad either. This whole idea of a flat rate per patient has (as far as I'm aware of from speaking to our friends who are docs) largely been rejected by Ontario docs. Only a very small percentage of docs in Ontario have volunteered for this proposed new structure...Ontario will have a doc revolt if they try to impose this in my opinion. Hope this clarifies things. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MayFlower1 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 therealcrackers, You know, we seemed to have lucked out on the principle payments thing. In my wife's case they didn't start asking us for principle payments until almost a year after she finished residency. Thank god for the residency pay...as minimal as it may seem, it was sufficient to help contribute to mortgage, bills, etc and pay off the interest on the LOC. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mying Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 UOMeds05, I'm feeling the financial pinch myself. I want to limit how much debt I'll be in and still not go crazy, which is of course hard to do. But I doubt you're going to get a good answer to your question here... anyone perusing this board is not likely to be someone who's given up on med school because of costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest statementofclaim Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 MayFlower1 has the reality of the debt in perspective. Don't worry too much about it. Both my wife and I decided to go back to school. She went back in 1996 for an MD and is now a PGY3 in Pathology. We both had fairly good jobs for 4 years before she went back. I worked full time (plus) for her first two years of medicine and then I did my LLB/MBA. When we graduated we had about $75K on a line of credit with no student loans. However, we reduced that by about $50K when we sold a condo we lived in during med school. It is now not an issue (a very good move). I did make an observation during my wife's time in Med School... I didn't see anyone suffering. The banks were throwing money at them. I can't count the number of trips south, cars, computers, and general high living that I observed during her four years among class mates. Nobody was suffering that I saw, but I'm certain there were a some. In her immediate circle of friends, almost everyone bought a home on starting residency and many of those people were $120 - 150K in the hole at that point. I remember being stunned when a guy bought with significant debt got a mortgage on a $190K condo before starting residency (in a province with one of the lower residency salaries). He will be in a very high paying specialty, but he had 5 years of residency to go. I was shocked, but not anymore. That being said, I really wouldn't worry about it. As long as you don't get stupid with your debt load, you'll pay it off and land on your feet. It takes money to make money and you don't need an MBA to figure that one out. If your dream is to become a doctor and you want to go to UofT, but are scared of the tuition, don't worry too much. Go after your dream and you'll be just fine. For most, it is the goal of becoming a doctor, and not the money. But the money will be there for those who want it. I have many friends that have passed their Royal College boards and are absolutely raking it in. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UOMeds05 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 HI all, Thank you all for your advice and concern... however, this was not the intention of my post. I am quite prepared to do whatever is needed to get through med-school and realize that in the big picture, things should work out fine for me, and those of you who responded. However, we are not all as fortunate and in the same boat... I suppose I should explain myself more clearly. I had seen a previous posting by an applicant that was clearly concerned about the fees of medical school. There is a group of us who are interested to see if this at all hinders anyone with applying or pursuing medicine. A study out of the University of Western Ontario (I believe) has shown that the average income of medical students' families has increased by over $35,000/yr showing that population distribution of medical students is changing... is the rising tuition etc selecting a more priviledged population? Perhaps this isn't the best venue to post such a question as stated above, but thought that it was worth a shot. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jmh2005 Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I'll I can say is Scotiabank Line of Credit...they are fabulous...they saved me...I received NO OSAP, nor did I get a bursary (apparently 135/138 in my class got at least 5000.00). However, I do have a very loving and supportive husband who has a very good job. It can be done, but the line of credit is necessary! j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sil Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Previous to medicine I went to undergrad for 7 years (4 one degree, 3 another). I got full OSAP funding for both degrees. I know that when I graduate I will be in debts of around 150000 (as I already have close to 60000). But when I think about the overall picture. Do I want to be in debt for 10 years of my life and do a job I like? or do I want to be in less debt and be in a job that I can't wait until I retire from. After all 50 years working in a field that you would not enjoy is a life waisted in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tantastic Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi Statement of Claim Another interest of mine (if med school doesn't work out) and perhaps others out there is to go into intellectual Property Law or the Investment Banking with a majour health care group. I understand that one of the best ways to enter into an investment bank as an associate is by completing an MBA/LLB joint degree. I am a little worried about the cost and the possibility there won't be a job waiting on the other side. Have you graduated? And if so how do you find the job market, what area do you hope to go into? How have your classmates done? Has everyone found a job? What kind of salaries is the joint program commanding these days? Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate all of this advice as I'm kinda lost with all of this career stuff:) Take Care Tara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest statementofclaim Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 To address UOMed5's post... I do think that the cost of accessing a medical education is going to affect who applies, but that's just a subjective opinion. I think there will always be medical students of modest means attending out of shear desire, ability and hard work. I however also think that the contemplation of debt loads well into six figures does give some students pause. My wife's med school classmates came from varied backgrounds and family income levels. It covered the spectrum from very modest to quite wealthy. When you don't have to work during medical school, nor worry about loans, bills, credit cards, etc.. it allows you to focus, obviously. You could tell who had come from money. i.e. new car, condo, trips south several times per year, etc.. I will however always remember their first orientation event. We were at a table with 6 med 1s. Someone asked if there were doctors in the family and FOUR, count'em, Four out of six did; and two of those four had both parents working as physicians. At graduation, the University permitted faculty members (MS's and other) to present the degree to their son or daughter. There was quite a line-up of parents on stage! As for Tara's question: The I-Banking field is not all that great right now. Lots of layoffs and minimal hiring right now. You don't do IPO's when the market is in the toilet. M&A work is a little more steady, but it is still not so hot. If you want to do an MBA, you'd do well to go to a top 10 school in the US. Do well there, and you're gold. In Canada, I'd advise going to Rotman or Ivey (I didn't). As for MBA/LLB grads. They all have jobs. Most complete articles and get called to the bar to keep options open. Associates in IBanking or Management consulting can start at $100K+. Top Canadian law firms pay about $65-75K for articling and $90+ for first year associates. The states is $125K+ to start with no articling. It really depends what you want to do. I'm articling in-house for an insurance company. As for IP Law... go to a top law school, get A's and your career is pretty much a lock. Get into medical school and your worst case still pays you a good living and assures some significant job satisfaction. As for MBA & Law careers... Check out http://www.law.com or http://www.vault.com. All the best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mandm Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 To Statement of Claim: A quick question for you re: MBAs. I have an MSc (Epi) and am considering doing an eMBA with the intention of working for a Pharmaceutical company/health care management. Do you think my (future) salary would return what I would currently have to shell out for an eMBA? With inflation, cost of living, etc etc, unless I break 100 K, it really doesn't seem to be worth it. Also--How important is a going to a good school? ( I am in Alta so going to Ivey or Rotman is not really an option.) Meanwhile the Queens eMBA is $68,000. Yikes! Thanks for answering this (even if it is a little atopical!) BTW: if anyone else has an opinion, please post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Hi mandm and Statement of Claim, I'd be interested, Statement of Claim, in why you tout Rotman and Ivey yet not Queen's? Queen's has sat atop the Canadian MBA school lists for quite a while, while Ivey's reputation has felt the consistent downward pull of gravity these past few years. During the application stage of my MBA experience I was accepted to Ivey and Queen's but didn't even apply to Rotman due to their relative infancy and relative lack of innovation. Therefore, based on a good evaluation of the three programs I chose Queen's. Although the Rotman reputation has gained ground over the past few years, I don't see nor hear that Ivey's has. Where did you do your MBA, if you don't mind me asking, and how was the experience? mandm, one good option for folks with science backgrounds is the Queen's MBA for Science and Tech. It's a one-year program and science/tech-specific, so there are often a number of doctors, dentists, etc., within each year of the program. Sadly, this program is not offered trans-Canada at the moment. As to job prospects at the other end, you're probably already familiar with the M.Sc. Epi job market (here in Toronto it's pretty hot). Adding an MBA to the mix won't hurt you at all and will definitely add valuable perspective and depth to your portable tool box of skills that will be directly applicable to the pharmaceutical industry when you enter it. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest statementofclaim Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Kirsteen We're probably on the wrong board for this discussion, so I'll try and be brief. Queens is great. My Dad went there. I hope my kids go there. Hell, I wish I would have been able to go there. There is nothing wrong with Queens. I had intended to mention them in my message along with McGill and York, but I thought I'd be brief. I think Queens has a great program. For IBanking of International Management consulting.... in Canada I would go to Rotman or Ivey first, followed by Schulich, McGill and Queens. I think that what Roger Martin has done at UofT has been quite stellar. I would refer you to the Financial Times rankings as one area for some data. I went to Dal. That is where I was going to law school at the time I decided to take my MBA. I had a great time. I majored in International Business and Business Law and had some wonderful opportunities including spending 3 months in the Bridgetown Barbados doing some export marketing work for some Canadian companies wanting to move into the Eastern Caribbean. I think that Canada has some great MBA programs but I would say that the above five schools (Queens included), in my opinion, are our best. FYI on IT work... I read that Dal Law now has an law and technology institute to go along with the Masters of E-Commerce (faculties of Computer Science, Law and Management). Have a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tantastic Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Thank you so much for your response:D You post was extremely helpful. I was just curious, if you ever considered medicine. You were an OT previously so going to med school with your wife would have seemed like a natural progression No? Why the drastic move to business law? Secondly, Knowing what you know now about the Law/MBA route would you have done it again or gone another route such as medicine? Thanks again, sorry to bug you so much, I'm just trying to get a real feel for these areas of study before jumping into anything too quickly and again I thank you for your great advice. Kirsteen, Queen's MBA program is stellar for a subset of MBA seekers, ie science/tech/engineering people on a career track looking for some management skills to add to their arsenal and help in promotions. IVEY and Rotman focus more on career changers, or people who want to get into the so called "prestigious" management fields such as investment banking and management consulting. Their courses are even geared towards these pursuits. Are you in med school Kirsteen, or looking to change into that from management? On a final note, talking to my undergraduate collegues, it seems that the debt is not an issue for anyone wealthy or not. the rational is working at a job with a Bsc might bring in 50,000 so might as well be a doc make 150K and even after the loan payments you still come out in a better position while doing what you love. The main worry/stress/concern of everyone is actually getting accepted that's the part that has everyone staying up at night not the money:rolleyes Oh well thanks for everyone's input, this board is oodles of help Thanks again Tara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biochem10 Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 To answer UOMeds05 question, how has the financial burden of med school affected your application...It's caused a lot of grief with my Dad who got into a huge arguement with me about applying to U of T. (He wanted me only to apply to McGill, since their tuition fees are about $5,000/year for in-province students) Both my parents are on the really low end of the income scale and were worried about me amassing a great amount of debt. I'm lucky that I was able to pay relatively low tuition (at McGill) throughout undergrad and OSAP has fully supported that (I was very limited with chosing an undergraduate university, Western and Queen's were completely out of the question because of cost). Anyway, I've applied to the MD/PhD program at U of T and McGill and the scholarships offered to students in this program will definetly be valued for someone like me. I'm aware, however, that almost all med students regardless of family income will be in debt. It's just unfortunate that people for low-income families sometimes don't even make it to undergrad, let alone med school because of a variety of reasons (one being cost, but also responsibilities for parents, rent, bills or deterrents from their social surroundings). Just my thoughts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mandm Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Hi Kirsteen and statement of claim: Thanks so much for the info. That was great-- very informative. I really wish we could get into an MBA discussion here-- especially in light of the fact so many of us have MBA interests along with medicine. Kirsteen-- I love your posts .Especially enjoyed your post about Prierce Brosnan over the X'mas holidays. Very funny. Would you be OK w. emailing me privately. I have read that you have an MBA , correct? Would like to talk more about MBAs. BTW: What about schools out West? Will I be compromising my career by choosing a local and cheaper ($-wise) school? Edited to add: Actually, I have a private email. If it's OK maybe I emailed you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest statementofclaim Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Tantastic You obviously know me/my background from my post. Do I know you. Did I mention I am an OT in a previous post? Just curious. To answer your question, I didn't have the undergrad science grads for medicine. I did a Master of Science and did very well, but it had been so long since undergrad Chemistry and Bio, I would have crashed and burned on the MCAT I think. I always wanted to be a lawyer and my knowledge of hospitals, charts, silliness in OR :rollin is proving very helpful in Tort and disability litigation. If I had it to do over again, I would have studied a little harder in first year of undergrad and/or I would have gone to law school a little earlier;) . Besides, I met my wife in OT school! Later...Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UOMeds05 Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Biochem 10, thank you for your candidness. I am really happy that you are continuing to pursue your goals despite any obstacle. I was wondering if you could email me. I would like to talk to you about a project that a group of us have undertaken that we would like your input on... my email is: uomeds05@hotmail.com best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest UWOMED2005 Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Hey Biochem10 - don't worry about not being able to pay for med school if your parents can't afford to help you. While I received lots of help for undergrad, I haven't received a cent from my parents since I finished undergrad. My LOC statements are quite obscene, but I have been able to pay all the bills without parental support so it is possible. And on the upside, you should be more than eligible for OSAP and bursaries. Those should help a lot. It might be worse if Parents' income was subtantial enough to disqualify you from OSAP, but they refused (for whatever reason) to help you out at all. I know a few people in that situation. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tantastic Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Interesting Statement of Claim, Actually I don't know you although you sound like a cool dude to know I'm not sure how I know you were an OT? I've been discussing OT with jmh05 on this board so I may have gotten my signals crossed.....or maybe I'm psychic:eek I'm glad things worked out for you. I wish you the best of luck and thanks for being such a tremendous resource on this board, perhaps you could moderate a section of this board dealing with alternative career paths in busines and law. In any case thanks so much. To Biochem10. I think the majourity goes into massive debt. I wouldn't worry about it. Its basically an investment that pays itself totally back within two years and then provides a great return on your investment. I know if I get accepted I'll be maxing out the scotia professional student lines of credit as my father's health isn't good and he can only practice one or two days a week and soon may give that up as well. Good luck to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kirsteen Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Hi there, To answer a few bits and pieces, Queen's also offers the National and Executive MBA programs, both of which are ideal for "career changing". I know a good number of corporate skyscraping movers and shakers who graduated from my program. As to e-mailing, sure, I'd be happy to answer questions and nope, I'm not in meds, but I'd certainly like to be at some point! Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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