A question of morality: distributing copyrighted AAMC sample MCATs

[scarface]

It's really interesting to see pre-meds distribute around AAMC tests as if they were candy (see posts in MCAT forums). And I'm sure they are all aware that it's illegal/immoral. Sure we can try to rationalize that we are like Robin Hood, taking from the rich (AAMC) and giving to the poor, but stealing is stealing, whether it be blue collary robbery of a corner store or white collar intellectual property theft aided by the likes of Limewire and Kazaa.

 

This shows that many of us, despite being adults, are still stuck in a premature stage of moral reasoning, "it's okay to do something immoral as long as you don't get caught" (for those of you familiar with Kohlberg's 5 stages of moral reasoning)

 

I'm not in a position to judge anybody. I'll leave that to someone more worthier, such as a saint or priest. That being said, could someone please send the MCAT tests to the following address . . . actually, on second thought I'll pass.

[Becca]

AAMC gives away a free test and you can buy a whole bunch of others. Plus places like Princeton and Kaplan include a few copies in their courses (again, paid for to the AAMC by the test prep companies)

[AMmd]

I'm not in a position to judge anybody. I'll leave that to someone more worthier, such as a saint or priest.

 

hahaha

that is so funny!

how about good ol' Jesus? Nobody else will judge me but the Messiah Himself!

[scarface]

Maybe I purchased the AAMC tests legally, maybe I didn't. Maybe I stole them at gunpoint from an unsuspetcing premed. Maybe I am a gangster involved in an underground money laundering business. What difference does it make? The purpose of the thread was simply a commentary on the debase nature of humanity. At no point did I mean to say that I am virtuous, moral, and righteous while the people who distributed the tests are worthless evildoers.

 

Sure the AAMC gives away a free test. But that doesn't change the fact that what occurred on these forums is a felony? Don't believe me? Then send a letter to the AAMC saying you got a hold of their materials without paying for them and ask them if it's illegal.

 

What really kills me is that I was reading an old post in Ottawa's forum about an applicant fabricating his sketch. People are so quick to label such imposters as "evil", yet these same people will have no moral qualms about distributing AAMC test materials. If you want to do something immoral, I prefer you to lie on your med school application. It's similar to Flyod Landis taking steroids to win the Tour de France. At least, the only people you're hurting is your competition, pre-meds whose values are just as morose as your own. Sure the AAMC can be considered an evil empire with deep pockets, but realize there are many lower class people working for the AAMC who are being robbed by your actions.

 

And AMmd, I don't know if you really are a Christian or not, but what you said might offend some Christians. When it comes to religious matters, some people tend to be sensitive. Yes, you can call me on my hypocrisy. I myself, ventured into "dangerous territory" with my comment regarding priests and saints.

 

And yes I know there are some good people out there. People like you give me some hope. And some of you might say, "one wrong action doesn't make a person bad. After all, nobody's perfect." Well, look at the story of former President Mr. Clinton. Look at the story of Ben Johnson. All it takes is one wrong action for society to label you a "bad person".

[Jixe]

Stealing is wrong, but profiteering from stolen goods is worse. Would you rather give the tests away for free or watch someone give stolen ones away for a price?

[SunE]

Oh please, stop being all high and mighty

[daryn]

good for you.

[tooty]

I don't think distributing this material is wrong at all. It's like borrowing a friend's DVD. By scarface's logic, anyone who watched a friend's DVD without buying a copy has committed a crime. I wouldn't label the distribution of tests as "stealing." I would label it as "doing something that the AAMC does not want you to do."

 

Although I do agree that the people who distribute tests should not complain about people fabricating EC's. The act is a bit hypocritical.

 

Scarface, have you read any Robert Greene? I bet you would hate his books.

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

Are Robert Greene books about distributing ill-gotten AAMC tests? Sweet!

[scarface]

Sorry, if some people were a bit turned off by the second thread I posted. It was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. Do you guys really think I would advocate lying on your med school app over distributing AAMC tests? It was only intended for people who claim to uphold such values and criticize people who don't, yet these same people will break the rules in a totally different situation. If this situation doesn't apply to you, for example if Floyd Landis and Ben Johnson are still on your A-list, then the tirade wasn't intended towards you.

 

Tooty, you're a smart guy. I agree, maybe it's not stealing but it's still illegal. I'm going to report these guys to the AAMC. Less competition for us, once they have a criminal record right?

 

And I have read the 48 laws of power and 33 strategies of war. Cover to cover. Whoops? Did I just say that aloud? Sorry, I meant to say I read the Bible on a daily basis, and pray for the benefit of all humanity.

[bioboy2007]

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the point of this thread.

[scarface]

Bioboy, does a thread really need to have a point to be posted on this forum? Don't you think this thread is an interesting/amusing read? If not, don't read it. Or contribute something more useful, unlike this SunE person, comes out of nowhere and accuses me of being "high and mighty" when I made it clear that I'm not. Or like this daryn, says "good for you", cuz he/she can't think of anything better to say.

 

But since you seem to be curious, I'll tell you the reason. A while ago, I read a thread on the Ottawa forum about an applicant fabricating his sketch, which caused a lot of readers to be upset. Shortly after I read the posts on the MCAT forums about people distributing AAMC materials illegally. I thought to myself, Hmmm . .. . interesting, both acts are clearly immoral, yet one elicits bursts outrage, while the other doesn't.

 

People don't like it when you break to rules when it hurts them (ie. fabricating your sketch) but when you break the rules and it doesn't hurt you, but possibly benefit you (i.e. getting AAMC materials without paying for them), people have no problem with it. Why not be consistent when it comes to morality? (that was a rhetorical question BTW)

[peachy]

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand the point of this thread.

Heh. To be fair, there are a lot of threads posted here that have no point.

[AMmd]

Hi there,

Sorry, didn’t mean to offend your religious beliefs. I just find it sad (and always have) that ppl believe in saints and priests or leprechauns in that matter.

 

Jesus said you should not have other gods before Him. Again, I apologize if this will offend you.

 

Then again, if you look from a different perspective... why do you think its fair that only the wealthy (or at least who have enough money) to pay for the exam will be able to get into med school. Or for example ppl who can afford 7000$ for a tutor will have an advantage on the ppl who buy mediocre books to study for the same exam. I find this outrageous, but its not biblically relevant. And that’s why I said God is the only one who can judge me. Because he knows the real me... and no mortal could see that.. no matter who they are....except for Mother Theresa, I like her... I cant wait to buy her a round of beer (or vodka) in heaven.

[scarface]

No worries man, you did not offend me, I'm just worried you might offend others by referring to the Lord's name in vain ("good ol jesus"), just trying to do you a favor bro, sorry if it came off as harsh (BTW, I'm a former christian turned atheist)

 

I agree with you, it's not fair that only the wealthy can afford to pay for MCAT prep courses and tutors, and even *gasp* AAMC practice tests. But, I also do believe that there are many aspects in life that are not fair, and there's little we can do about it (other than *cough* bend the rules *cough*)

 

What I don't like is people who "judge others", ie. such and such is such an evil person because he lied his/her way into med school and will be a crappy unethical physician. You're right, I agree only Jesus is in a position to judge others (ironic, coming from a self-proclaimed atheist, eh?)

 

Anyways, a close friend of mine cheated his way into medicine (and even cheated on his MCAT, don't ask me how). This guy is not as evil as you think. He's currently doing a family medicine residency and the nurses and patients love him! He plans on serving in an underserviced rural community, something our society definitely needs. Take home message, don't judge people based on one wrong action, we all have a little "evil" inside of us.

[AMmd]

I understand completely what you are saying. I think you were refering to Mat 7:5 - first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye

 

But I felt you were saying you are good because you dont want the exams, but the rest who take them are bad... it was just my impression.

 

I'm curious how does one become an atheist after being christian. Were you born a christian or you discovered God after? (and I love saying born a christian, because it sound like a disease you are born with). and what made you turn your back on God? and you know once you fully accept God's salvation, you never lose it...

 

hey dont give up on the Big Guy.

[scarface]

Understandable. True, I might have given that impression. And the only reason why I didn't want the AAMC tests was cuz a friend gave to me (gave, not photocopied), so I didn't break the rules much like Tooty stated with his DVD argument.

 

Tooty and AMmd, I have sent you both PM.

[Chowchilla]

here's a real question: how ethical do you think it is for amcas to charge an unholy US $210?

[Smurfette]

I actually quite enjoy this thread. I think scarface makes an interesting point. There seems to be a discrepancy in where it is appropriate to follow the rules and where it is no.

 

However, Kohlberg's highest level of morality goes beyond rules for the sake of rules. At the highest level, people follow the moral dictations of their conscience, which usually (but not always) are compatible with the rules. For example, people might choose to hide an unfairly charged political prisoner in safety even though it breaks the rules because they believe in democracy (recall European non-Jews hiding Jewish people from the Nazis in the Second World War).

 

In some ways, the Robin Hood idea of taking from the "unethical" AAMC to give to the poor can be seen in the same way. The disregard for the rules may be due to a moral principle. Surely those who choose to distribute the exams (not the receivers but the givers) have no stake in the process. Now whether people truly believe this as a principle or whether they are simply trying to justify their actions is clearly a matter of debate (being a bit of a cynic, my guess would lean towards the latter choice).

[blues]

Morality is relative while rule breaking is absolute. People have different ideas regarding morality but most of us (the society) seems to have a collective of ideas that sort of represent what we believe in. The consequences have to be weighed. Take distributing AAMC tests illegally, for example, the outcome is: no loss to distributor, gain to the receiver, but loss to AAMC. Morally most of us would not feel bad about snatching some hundreds of dollars off a testing service that live however many miles away because what's at stake is only just.... some money. To lie on your med school application, however, is not just about money. I am very glad that in Scareface's friend's case it turned out well, but it might not have been in other cases, and what is at stake is lives. It's loss to the med school, the society, a fellow honest med school student who should have made it in, for the gain of the fraud applicant. I am not expressing myself very well, but the bottom line is: in my mind if you are doing something that's beneficial to you at the expense of another person's obvious suffering, then it is morally unjust, and for me lying on your application to increase your chances of getting in is in that category while distributing AAMC tests is not at that level yet. Perhaps one can argue that b/c AAMC isn't generating the revenue that they intend to and would have to cut off employees b/c of the illegal copies of the test, but until I see proof of it, I am not convinced. However, there is already proof for lying on the application, someone who is more qualified than the liar didn't make it b/c the liar lied, and obviously the qualified applicant suffers, and possibly even patients due to the deceitful nature of the doc to be. If someone could show me proof that people are suffering from the distributed AAMC tests, then I will be very glad to say that distributing illegal copies of the AAMC tests is immoral.

[daryn]

I can think of so many other things to say, thank you very much. It's awfully nice to see how well you know me, based on three words. Besides, who's to say what's useful and constructive and what's not? Just because something isn't a long overdrawn post with someone's freeflowing logic everything else has to be more intellectually superior. I mean exactly what I say.

 

 

 

 

 

But then I do agree with what you said later about not being judgemental. Hmm when did we see that before?

[scarface]

I'm sure you could think of better things to say my friend. Just messing around. I just wanted to irritate you at the time, you know the feeling that causes your blood pressure to rise a few degrees. I'm assuming I've succeeded seeing that you responded, and I'm also assuming that you did not appreciate it. So I promise I will never do it again.

 

You raise a damn good point. Who's to say what's constructive and useful? I agree most of what I said was useless, unconstructive, and had no point. Let's face the truth, I just wanted to irritate you, SunE, and Bioboy. Yes, it wasn't a very nice thing to do. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I promise from the bottom of my heart, it will never happen again.

 

What I meant by judgmental, was more along the lines of labelling someone as good/bad based on their actions. But yeah, I was somewhat judgemental of you, so yes I am a hypocrite. So allow me to judge you again, daryn, I don't even know you that well, but based on what you have said to me, I think you are a good guy, and if I were God, and if there were a heaven, I'd send you straight there. Myself, on the other hand, am a wicked person. I would send myself straight to hell.

[scarface]

Wow close to 1000 people saw this thread too. Again, if I knew that many people were going to read it, I wouldn't have started it. I have made a fool of myself in two threads now. Lovely.

 

Good points made by blues and smurfette. I guess I just got emotional when I read the Ottawa thread, cuz I thought about my buddy. He has such a big heart, and he didn't think it was fair that people like him who didn't have the book smarts had such a hard time getting into medicine. So he cheated his way into medicine. Also said the MCAT was a useless indicator of how good a doctor you are, people skills being far more important. So he cheated on it.

 

I wonder what ever happened to the fraudulent applicant in the Ottawa thread. I'm assuming he got in, and I'll give him/her the benefit of the doubt, he/she will make a good physician.

 

Anyways, I hated to be a spokeperson for morality, and feel that I am the least qualified candidate on this forum to fulfill that role. But for some reason I felt like I should speak up for a cause I didn't believe in (I guess because it was a cause I know I should believe in). Hence, the reason why I started this long and pointless thread. I've tried to eradicate my conscience, but it still lingers.

 

That being said, if I didn't have the MCAT tests, and needed them, would I get ahold of them illegally given the opportunity?

 

I sure as hell would.

[blues]

Scarface I do agree with you in that MCAT and grade point averages don't tell much about how good a doctor an applicant will be. I guess that's just the way it is in a very competitive profession - the med school admissions have to find a way of choosing students. So many obviously qualified students are turned away. Where can I find this "Ottawa thread" by the way? It seems to be interesting!

[scarface]

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056