Why some schools do not "Require" specific pre-reqs and why do we need a Bachelor's?

[mac_attack]

I have always been angered and upset by those schools that clearly state that they do not require any specific courses or MCAT or degrees or anything for application to med school.

 

Sure, we should give everyone who realizes in late June that they want to go into medicine a chance, no matter what their academic background. But do they not think that some skills like chemistry, biology should be required for entery? Do we really want doctors who major in geography or humanities and have never taken any science classes? Now this is in no way meant to offend those programs. It's just that when you go into medical school you have to cover a lot of material (clinical and non-clinical), you have a couple weeks per body system in some cases. Is that really enough to make for a good doctor?

 

Now some of you will say that undergrad is for self-exploration and enrichment before you go on to professional school. If you have always known that you want to do medicine, why did you dish out $40000 on your undergrad in the first place? Why not go into med school right after high school and spend 6 years in comprehensive studies, like they do in Europe and Australia?

 

My main problem is with those schools who just don't post any requirements and then say that theirs is the most acclaimed program in Ontario.

I'm curious as to why Western has recently changed from its really strict requirements to "no requirements at all"???

 

1. did they think it is just too hard for the future doctors to handle chem, orgo, bio, biochem, english??

2. Are we completely mis-directed by our science profs in undergrad and thus it would be easier for Western med to just teach us everything from the start?

3. If we don't really need to take any courses to apply, why take courses at all? why pay higher and higher tuition rates? why not just go into a longer program right after high school?

 

 

********************************************************

[Kiel]

I have always wondered about your exct same question!!

[bigbuffblackboy]

"If we don't really need to take any courses to apply, why take courses at all? why pay higher and higher tuition rates? why not just go into a longer program right after high school?"

 

LOL, great point.

[EVP]

A good number of the people I know who are in medical school have mentioned more than once that everyone is doing alright, regardless of their choice in undergraduate studies. A background may be useful, but medicine certainly isn't going to hurt someone who has a degree in liberal arts or engineering. I also don't believe that someone who hasn't taken any science classes is going to make a poor doctor.

In my opinion, an undergraduate degree is always a useful thing: making some friends, having some time to party, learning as much as I can and learning to study are importment to me. In professional school, I doubt that professors make exceptions for those who have not learned how to study. As well, how do you know for sure you want to be a doctor? If you complete an undergraduate degree at least you will have some exposure to a good diversity of classes (you'll have electives as well as the requirements), which is also important. I think many people say they've always known they wanted to be a doctor, and yes, there are some who fit into this category...but I feel that many want to believe it, so they say it. I don't think you really know what you want to do until you've had a good few years of school.

 

I am however, also frustrated with them tuition rates.

 

Cheers,

 

EVP

[PHANTOMPHOENIX]

My doctor did his undergrad in Philosophy....and he is a great doctor.

 

I am starting to notice a trend with mac_attack, first the cyncial thread asking to see the undergrad transcripts of med students with the implication that they all took bird courses and now the whining about the lack of science requirements in some of these schools. I sense some bitterness.

 

There is more to being a doctor than just memorizing amino acids. Med schools teach from scratch and non-science majors have been making it through med school without problems...I don't hear about any crisis of them failing out.

 

I really couldn't care less about the science requirements, thats what med school is for...if anything they should make social skills a requirement. It doesn't matter what u recommend ur patient...if u have no people skills to convey ur message....then all ur bio, chem, human anatomy isn't going to help you. From years of volunteering, personal & family experience, and recent research into physician-patient interaction.....people skills are not emphasized enough in the process. I've been astonished at the poor social skills of some physicians I've run into over the years.

 

What makes my doctor (the philosophy major) a great doctor is his great communication skills and diverse background.

[mac_attack]

Like I said in the original post I understand why some people would choose an undergrad in a completely unrelated field - it allows them to pursue something of interest before getting into 5-6 years of professional prep.

 

However, the problem is that there is no other option for people who have volunteered since they were 16 (OMSAS does ask for everything since then) and maybe by the time they are 18,19 they realize that medicine is something that they want to do. Remember that volunteering is now a must for undergrad applications / HS diploma as well.

 

My main frustration is with the fact that if you are one of these people who early on decide on medicine, you still have to spend a lot of time/money on an undergraduate education. The problem is that universities are now businesses, and as a society we have been told and have accepted that completing a Bachelor's is something that is required, that it allows us to grow as individuals. Of course the schools like this because of the $$$. The fact is that after undergrad many of the Bachelor degrees are useless, you have to go into something else to get a job.

 

You have personally said that you don't care about taking science reqs because that's the job of the med school - they teach us from scratch. So why should med schools even require these courses or any courses?

 

According to the rest of your posts, you see undergrad as a place to develop social skills, to make friends, to party. It seems to me that this sort of becomes like a second really really costly trip through high school, where you screw around and memorize some amino acids that are useless anyway because we learn the real important stuff later in medical school.

 

I just think that there should be another option or stream. You go to med after high school. If you decide you don't like it or can't handle it then you drop out and pursue something else of interest - at least you will be pursuing this new field because you will have realized that medicine is not for you. and you probably won't waste your time in something that you would have taken just as a stepping stone to medical school. You would be forced to find something that fits you and make a career out of that. It would make the whole process more efficient and fair in my opinion.

[leviathan]

1. did they think it is just too hard for the future doctors to handle chem, orgo, bio, biochem, english??

No. Do you think chem, orgo, bio, or biochem are really necessary to be a physician? Therefore, does it matter at all what you take in undergrad? No.

 

2. Are we completely mis-directed by our science profs in undergrad and thus it would be easier for Western med to just teach us everything from the start?

?

3. If we don't really need to take any courses to apply, why take courses at all? why pay higher and higher tuition rates? why not just go into a longer program right after high school?

I can only imagine how many students would apply straight from high school. Most uni applicants have a 90% average in high school, but only some of those maintain good scores after entering university. The undergrad degree serves as a weeding out process in a way, but also a valuable component of your maturation and personal growth. As corny as that sounds, it's true.

 

It sounds like you've got a touch of the premed insecurity. Suck it up, buttercup, you'll be just fine.

[bustylegs]

I just think that there should be another option or stream. You go to med after high school. If you decide you don't like it or can't handle it then you drop out and pursue something else of interest - at least you will be pursuing this new field because you will have realized that medicine is not for you

 

So, if students go into medicine right after highschool and decide that medicine is not a suitable career for them, then they drop out... However, by that time they have also "wasted" time and money by studying general chemistry/biology/anatomy. Which approach is better? Wasting money for a university degree or wasting money on a medical school that they're never going to finish?

 

Regardless of which system it is, enterance into medical school is compeitive. For example, highschool students in Japan have to write a national exam where marks are ranked and only the top percentage of people have an opportunity to go into medical school. Personally, I prefer the Canadian system b/c my MCAT marks suck and I didn't have great marks. Other attributes of mine, however, got me in the door.

 

If Mac_Attack's frustration is due to the fact that you have not yet gained entrance to medical school despite years to hard work, I would suggest keep working hard at it. As we all know, life isn't fair all the time. The only thing we can all do is to maximize our chances by constantly work hard.

 

Best of luck.

[PHANTOMPHOENIX]

To be more concise, it seems what you are unhappy with is that you have to do all this work....ie get an undergrad degree, volunteer, pay tuition...and in the end you could be left in no man's land with a useless undergrad if u don't get in med school, while someone else could get in based on a last minute decision to apply. However, it should be noted that just because someone decides at the last minute to apply, it doesn't mean they are any less qualified. I've known lawyers who quit their profession and go back to school to become doctors and turn out very good doctors.

 

As far as lack of pre-reqs.. what I am saying is that the way the system is currently set up...it makes little sense to ask for specific prereqs etc because they teach u everything from scratch. They are looking for well-rounded individuals with diverse backgrounds. Hence why interviews are a major part of the evaluation. Other disciplines don't require interviews and are purely academic...this is not so with medical school. If they didn't teach everything from scratch...then I could see there being emphasis on certain courses but they do so hence the requirements (or lack of requirements) to apply.

 

As far as ur comments on partying and making friends, when I said social skills/people skills I meant taking courses that emphasize communication/presentation skills etc. Don't go jumping to conclusions, those non-science students still need the same GPA's to get in. Just because a student didn't take a prototypcial biological science program to get in med school it does not mean they slacked off for 4 yrs. There are plenty of upper-level non-science courses that science majors would be hard pressed to get an A in. There are plenty of science majors who graduate without knowing how to put a comprehensible paper together. Also, its actually harder to get higher marks in many non-science courses that are essay based because many profs in those disciplines don't give out A+. (Hence why all my A+ are in Physics and other Biological courses, while I can't seem to get higher than an A in any essay based course).

 

Unfortunately, the competition is fierce for med school and wanting to be a doctor since the age of 16 is not a prereq to get into med school. It seems the stress of getting in is getting to you...like it gets to me and everyone else. Its basically a numbers game to get to the interview stage...but once you are there you still have to shine because telling the interviewers what your GPA was is not going to help you, at least I don't think it will...I have yet to try that approach.

[Lady]

If I have learned anything in the past few years, it is that you can spend a whole lot of time complaining about things in the world that don't make sense to you, things that may be injust or simply upsetting. I spent a lot of energy this past year getting upset about a colleague I knew who forged a transcript (and got away with it) and another who faked lab results (and also got away with it). I had many heated discussions about why someone needs to have a near 4.0 GPA and have gone to Africa to start an orphanage to be a competitive med school applicant, because in my opinion, these outlandish accomplishments do not necessarily make someone a better doctor.

 

ANYWAY, my point is that I spent a lot of time and energy thinking/complaining about these things that I couldn't change. I came to the realization that the world is never the way you think it should be. There will always be things that piss you off and things that you completely disagree with, but that's just the way it is. We need to just suck it up and move on. Yes, you may think that doing an undergrad before med school is pointless (some may agree with you, some may not). But spending all this time being bitter and writing long messages about it will only fuel your fire and put you in a worse mood. Seriously, just divert your energy to your med school application instead, or better yet, go outside and chill out (it's beautiful out in Toronto today...I have no idea where you live)!

 

One thing that has helped me dissipate my own discontent with the whole med school admissions process (and the educational institution in general) is to see that the current system has developed unintentionally and no one is to blame. For example, the excessively high standards for med admissions are simply a matter of the increasing volume of applicants. Med schools probably don't think that someone with a 4.0 who has saved orphans in Africa would make a better doctor than someone with a 3.5 who volunteered at a local hospital (or maybe they do). However, I can understand their position when faced with thousands of applications and I cannot blame them for picking top-notch applicants.

 

Similarly, I don't think universities are trying to rake in the big bucks by requiring Bachelors degrees. It is more likely that in the past, people with Bachelors degrees had better career or employment opportunities, which lead more and more people to pursue university education. NOW, so many people have Bachelors degrees that it is pretty much a pre-requisite for good employment or professional education.

 

In conclusion, I have spent far too long composing this post!! I am off...I hope this forum will become more of a helpful site (rather than a bitterfest).

 

Ciao,

Lady

[NurseNathalie]

having a pure "science" background really does make it easier to understand certain key concepts while you are in medical school... but you can still learn to practice medicine (and do it really well) without it. I think it just makes it a little more demanding while going through it without that background knowledge. Demanding... but doable.

 

remember at the end, we must all pass the LMCC- and ppl who don't have a science background prior to medical school are as well prepared to practice as those who do. that should tell you something

[Kiel]

Very well put!

[mac_attack]

I would like to start by stating that I don't see this as a bitterfest at all. This is a forum and I'm starting a discussion on a very important topic.

 

Some of you state that those with nonscience backgrounds do succeed in medical school (which is obviously true) thus medical schools should have no requirements; but by saying those things you are contradicting the whole point.

 

There are doctors all around the world, not just in North America, and they're all obviously doing a good job. The systems are different in some areas though and I think they are more efficient and produce intelligent and compassionate doctors.

 

My main argument is with the fact that since schools don't require any prereqs why should they insist on a bachelor's degree? Who benefits from the 4 year Bachelor's degree?

 

If you ask any first year "science class" what they want to do after undergrad, 90% will say med school. If all those people went to med school right after high school, some would probably drop out realizing it's not for them (those who would similarily change undergrad majors or choose an alternate career path), but many would graduate. Here we would solve the problem of lack of doctors/specialists etc. Those who dropped out for whatever reasons, would probably go on to pursue another career. They would apply themselves to something else, wouldn't have to worry about meeting standards for medical school.

 

It's just really upseting that other University students can't see that the schools are after your money first, your education/experiences come second. Why dish out the extra money on an undergrad, when you are set on medicine from the start?

I would rather spend 6 years in medical school and learn all the sciences from scratch (wait they already do this anyway) and then graduate with an MD. If I hate the job, at least I'll have an MD, I'm sure there would be less problems doing something else after.

 

The system has worked in many places outside Canada and it could work here. Of course, some people would first have to settle for smaller annual profits.

[mac_attack]

No. Do you think chem, orgo, bio, or biochem are really necessary to be a physician? Therefore, does it matter at all what you take in undergrad? No.

 

So what is the value or point of your Bachelor's degree. I might as well just toss it in the trash if I were a med school.

 

I can't stress how sad it is that we buy everything we're sold. Even the ever more costly undergrad education which apparently makes us complete people.

 

Would life be sweeter if you could have that MD at 23 or 24 and start living your life.

 

It sounds like you've got a touch of the premed insecurity. Suck it up, buttercup, you'll be just fine.

 

Well not exactly hun. I figured I might as well play the lottery here in Ontario while I hold onto an acceptance at an overseas program. So I guess I'm no longer a PRE-med.

Good Luck to you!

[Smurfette]

I don't actually have a very strong opinion about whether med schools should accept people straight from high school or after undergrad. It's certainly true that some countries accept students straight out of high school and their health care systems are doing okay too. But here are a few points to consider:

 

1- One claim is that you could just let the students that end up not liking med school drop out (weeded out - just like in undergrad). However, med school is expensive and highly subsidized by taxpayers. It wouldn't be at all cost-efficient.

 

2- It wouldn't really solve the problem of the doctor shortage very much to accept students after high school since you still need more med school spaces to pump out more doctors.

 

3- Many med schools overseas have longer programs (6-7 years?). So in terms of total time that a student must take to finish med school, it's not significantly different.

 

4- Diversity among physicians may actually be a good thing. There are all types of patients - physicians are responsible for treating all of them. If you have physicians that come from all different backgrounds, you will have a more diverse group of people that can connect to people. The guy with the physiology background might make a great internal medicine physician. But maybe it'll take the guy with the background in sociology and First Nations studies that will be able to deal with the difficult health problems in the rural, Aboriginal communities.

[NurseNathalie]

My main argument is with the fact that since schools don't require any prereqs why should they insist on a bachelor's degree? Who benefits from the 4 year Bachelor's degree?

 

Well... a lot of benefits come from a Bachelor's degree. First off, it gives you knowledge. It also gives you an opportunity to get into that 'learning in a different way than in high school' mode. It also gives you 4 extra years to grow up and really get a chance to think further about what it is you want to do in life, and what carreer path you will take.

 

If you ask any first year "science class" what they want to do after undergrad, 90% will say med school. If all those people went to med school right after high school, some would probably drop out realizing it's not for them (those who would similarily change undergrad majors or choose an alternate career path), but many would graduate.

 

My point exactly! most kids in high school have NO idea what they want to do... and even if you THINK you want to do medicine- its such a unique demanding and life altering carreer that you should be 100% sure that's what you want to do. The answer to the physician shortage would NOT be to have most of the ppl drop out (recruitment vs retention issues). It is a big expenditure of the system to train physicians. I heard numbers like it costs the province $80 000 to train each one of us (numbers may be slightly different, but you get the drift). this is above and beyond what we pay. You don't want to invest that kind of money for someone who will just quit because they were 'giving it a try for fun'. It also takes an inumerable amount of resources. If I couldn't get a placement at the hospital because they are overwhelmed with students (most of which will then decide they don't like it) how much further ahead will we be?

 

Here we would solve the problem of lack of doctors/specialists etc. Those who dropped out for whatever reasons, would probably go on to pursue another career. They would apply themselves to something else, wouldn't have to worry about meeting standards for medical school.

 

same applies for an undergrad though... First of all, you should never just pick an undergrad for the sole reason of getting into medical school! you go into something you are interested in, and something you think you could do- should you not go into medicine. NOT EVERYONE who WANTS to do medicine is able to or suited for it. The system we have today, is good at weeding out the applicants. Plus, I think a science undergrad degree is not lost... it can be really useful for other carreers as well.

 

It's just really upseting that other University students can't see that the schools are after your money first, your education/experiences come second. Why dish out the extra money on an undergrad, when you are set on medicine from the start?

 

That way, you'll be SURE that's what you want to do- and you won't be some immature little kid straight out of high school. Do you think a patient would be comfortable with Douggie Houser sitting there between her legs taking out her polyps? um.. I sure wouldn't ! I think younger adults can manage well, but teens would really lack credibility- and I think would lack understanding of many issues pertaining to their clients- just because they don't have that life experience yet.

 

If I hate the job, at least I'll have an MD, I'm sure there would be less problems doing something else after.

I'm not going to touch this one with a ten-foot pole.. because what I would have to say, would be rude... but that whole concept/statement is extremely frightning to me... and makes my skin crawl! It's that type of statement, to be honest, that makes me think: thank god the system is there to protect me and members of the community!

 

Of course, some people would first have to settle for smaller annual profits.

Money? is this what it all boils down to? Physicians don't make as much as what ppl think... lots of overhead, etc..

 

sorry.. had to say my peace...

" and... that's all I'm going to say about th-aaat"

[coastalslacker]

Reasons to not accept "kids" (ie just out of high school) into medical school:

 

1. Maturity- yah, yah, I know, all you 19 or 20 year olds are really mature and "ready to be doctors"-whatever. As has been previously mentioned, undergrad isn't just about the school. You need time to grow up, figure out what you want, and maybe face a little adversity. The other day I was talking with a friend who will be finishing med school this coming May, at 24 years of age. S/he was talking about feeling "old" (she defines old as 27-28...) and wondering why s/he had gone through so quickly without taking time to do some other things.

 

2. Admitting people to med school based on high school marks is silly because there are lots of people who aren't that bright and can do relatively well in high school simply by working hard. Many get to university and realize they aren't really that clever.

 

3. People change their minds about what they want to do, especially when they are young. That 90% of first year bio classes who want to be doctors gets whittled down pretty quick by a lot of academic attrition and changing interests. Given how highly subsidized medical education is by your/my/everyone's tax dollars, I don't want a system where people flunk out or change their minds part of the way through. The op talked about graduating more doctors, but that doesn't do a lick of good without creating more residency spots.

 

4. 6 years of medical school.....why, what would you teach in the other two years? I have a minimal science background and feel I'll be just fine when I finish med school in two years. I'm no smarter than my average classmate and I definitely haven't worked as hard as most.

 

Well not exactly hun. I figured I might as well play the lottery here in Ontario while I hold onto an acceptance at an overseas program. So I guess I'm no longer a PRE-med.

 

You still b**ch and whine like one.

[Darla]

 

Would life be sweeter if you could have that MD at 23 or 24 and start living your life.

 

I don't understand why you have to wait until 23 or 24 to start living your life. That seems like a backwards way of thinking about life <cue cheesy music and voice-over> you're always living it, it's up to you how you enjoy it.

 

My 2 cents, I have also noticed a change in the admissions at universities that has shifted the focus to quality of the applicant not quality of their transcript. When we're talking about a social career, this seems to be a move in the right direction.

[Gaskell]

It might interest you to know that there are several programs in the US where you earn both B.Sc/M.D. degrees are are guaranteed admission into med school (provided your GPA does not drop below a certain GPA, sometimes provided you earn a minimum score on your MCAT). One applies for these programs from high school, and they range from 6-8 years in length.

 

They are good options for people who know that they want to be doctors early.

[bahamabreeze]

"6 years of medical school.....why, what would you teach in the other two years"

 

Just a little correction here. Med schools are 6 years in other countries, but they are not just 2 years longer. When you finish, you have the right to practice medicine, which is not the case here (you must do an 2 years in FP, which in most cases comes up to 6 years in Canada/USA). It used to be that way in Canada until a little while ago....

 

Straight out of high school isn't necessarily better. Look at the system in France, where 800-1000 students start first year, but after second year, there are only 150 spots available. The 650-850 other students just lost 2 years, which I believe can not be applied to another degree.

 

As for maturity, yeah, at 24 you have more maturity and life experience than at 20, but you still have less than at 35, and still less life experience than at 60... I think the argument that you must be in your mid twenties is a little far fetched. Even if you start med school at 20, it doesn't change a whole lot. When you're done your MD and residency, you'll be between 26 and 30, which in my opinion doesn't differ significantly from a 23 year old who'd be 29-33.

 

By the way, I started my MD at 24, after the equivalent of 3 years university in Ontario and 3 years on the job market. I'm with plenty of people who started medicine at 19-20 years old, straight out of CEGEP, and I can confidently say that they'll be as good of an MD, academically and personal skills, as any university student when they're done.

 

Just my 2 cents

[MDHopefully2005]

Like NurseNathalie said, part of the problem of going straight out of highschool here is there is no consistency between highschools in Canada...in the US and Britain they have tests on completing highschool so you can compare one student to the next equally. Here, if you went to an "easy" highschool you could pull off way higher marks without necessarily being any smarter or working any harder. At least at a Canadian university there is more consistency between schools so it's a little easier to compare 2 students....not to say that some courses or programs aren't harder or easier then others, but it's a little more comparable

[Gaskell]

Just to clarify, most of the US BSc/MD, straight-from-high-school programs will take Canadians, so I don't think the quality of Canadian high school students is an issue.

[scarface]

In conclusion, I have spent far too long composing this post!! I am off...I hope this forum will become more of a helpful site (rather than a bitterfest).

 

I have found this forum a very helpful site. Thanks to some old posts in the dental forum, I have switched career paths from medicine to dentistry.

 

Yes, there is much angst and bickering on the board (some of which, I'm proud to have been involved first hand with), but the positives of this board outweigh the negatives.

 

I actually find this thread quite entertaining . . . it reminds me of a soap opera . . . argue away ladies and gentlemen!!!

[scarface]

Money? is this what it all boils down to? Physicians don't make as much as what ppl think... lots of overhead, etc..

 

There is nothing wrong with money being the #1 motivating factor to apply to meds. People like me, whom apply to professions such as meds and dents for the $$$, are not evil, we are just different. Some people in this world are materialistic, while others are more "value driven" (for lack of a better word, I'm referring to someone who wishes to make a difference in society)

 

The average family physician doesn't make as much as ppl think, but the average specialist is well in that range (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). As I have stated before elsewhere on this forum, I believe this is the primary reason for our family doctor shortage (not the lack of medical school spots).

 

And for those of you who want to work in a health care profession (which may or may not be medicine), the average physician makes more $$$ than most other health care professions out there, so if high income is important to you . . . and it will be if you plan on having two or more kids, a house, and two or more cars . . .

[MDHopefully2005]

What NurseNathalie was saying I believe, is that it's WAY easier (and cheaper) to make tons of money in other areas....such as business, so if you just want to be rich you should go into an area such as that. Going into meds you have to pay out a ton of cash before seeing any return and you have to work long hard hours to get it...granted you do make a decent amount once your done, but there are easier and quicker ways to make money then medicine. It's only going to hurt the people you're supposed to be helping if you're only there for you and to make money. If you're whipping through seeing patients because you want to make money, you're going to miss many things that along the line that could kill someone....if anyone is going to go into medicine just for the money, I truly hope they go into an area with little to no patient contact...