Research project

[frenchfrog]

I'm a first-year medical student, and am worrying about CaRMS already (as if the present doesn't cause enough stress). Anyway, I would like to do a student research project this summer...but am having trouble finding a supervisor/mentor in my field of interest. So my question is, when it comes to CaRMS, if I end up doing a project in a field somewhat irrelevant to the specialty I enter (eg. doing research in Vascular Surgery when I apply to an Obs&Gyn program), will the research experience itself be useful for my application or will it be disregarded because it doesn't really apply to my chosen field?

 

(This of course assuming I dont have a miraculous experience through this vascular surgery research that somehow leads me to want to be an Obstetrician.)

[blinknoodle]

Hey there,

 

From my understanding, research in your field of interest is always better then research not in your field. However, not all programs stipulate that research in that field is necessary. It is more common for the really competitive programs (ie. plastics, ophthalmology, etc) where you will definitely need pertinent research, especially at research-intensive programs like Toronto. However, for other programs like ob/gyn, which aren't as competitive, they may be more relaxed. Personally, I wouldn't sweat it too much, unless you are gunning for something uber competitive, because most students don't go into the residency program they initially want in their first year medical school anyhow (~20% actually go into what they wanted in first year, mainly those interested in family).

[frenchfrog]

So which is better between the following options:

1) Being part of clinical research conducted by a group of prominent physicians but basically doing data collection (ie. patient history-taking) and a bit of observing of the rest of the project...so basically, if there is a publication, I'm lucky if my name is in size 8 font somewhere on the paper.

 

2) Being part of some health-care related but not clinical research with a team conducted by someone with a Ph.D.

I get to do some data collection and help with some analysis, and perhaps have the opportunity to get some help writing my own small paper on a part of the study.

 

3) Doing the work (ie. collection and analysis, etc) on my own tiny clinical research project, with the assistance of one physician. With the possible opportunity to present the findings at grand rounds or maybe write an article.

 

I can't decide what to do. Is there even a difference between these opportunities? Help me out please!

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

If you have an inkling about a possible career path for yourself, and if any of the aforementioned projects are related to that career, then I'd consider undertaking one of those. You might find that a project (which can be a slog at times) can be much more interesting if it's within a field that's of interest to you.

 

Also, do you have the opportunity and/or time to tackle a combination of the above choices that you've laid out? If so, then it might be worthwhile to opt for project number 3 and one of the others. Often, it's positive to have multiple projects on the go especially when there are other people involved. During times when someone is reviewing your results, presentation or manuscript you can be working on part of the other project. If you have the time to do this, it can be a very efficient, productive and rewarding process.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[frenchfrog]

Thank you for your reply and good suggestion...

Unfortunately, I can only be funded for one. Maybe there's some way around that, but otherwise I've got to pick one before Monday

But, on the bright side, at least I have options to choose from, right?

Life would be worse if I had no opportunity to do research at all.

[Kirsteen]

Thank you for your reply and good suggestion...

Unfortunately, I can only be funded for one. Maybe there's some way around that, but otherwise I've got to pick one before Monday

But, on the bright side, at least I have options to choose from, right?

Life would be worse if I had no opportunity to do research at all.

Hey again,

 

If you're keen on all three projects, would it be possible for you to be officially funded for one and then do one other without funding? Sometimes, unless they're hugely involved clinical trials or massive surveys, clinical research can be done without excessive monetary expense.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[ffp]

O.k. Here's my take:

Last year I was IM chief resident, and therefore intimately involved with the CaRMS file reviews. I also participated in cardiology file reviews and interviews in 2006.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this, but among program directors and staff reviewers, they DO look at the area where you have done your research. Someone applying to IM who has done all urology research is looked upon suspiciously, for example. However... if you have one urology project, and the rest of your CV SCREAMS internal medicine, don't sweat it. It is always best to have research within the area you are applying to, but any research is better than no research. Have you tried talking to some attendings in that area to see if they have projects on the go or can think of specific projects? Have you tried coming up with some ideas of your own and approaching them?

 

As to the other poster (with 3 potential projects)... here is my criteria:

 

1. Do what interests you most. It is important that you like what you do, and it will make the whole process easier. It's also good if your preceptors are available to help, and easy to get along with.

 

2. Pick a project (or portion thereof) that you can complete. As students and residents, it can be frustrating to get involved in very long-term projects that might not see final results for many years (long after we've applied for residencies, fellowships, etc).

 

3. Publication/presentation potential. Is this something you can publish or present at a meeting? That always looks better on a CV (and it is fun to go to conferences!)

 

4. Sometimes it might be possible to have one MAIN project that you are working on, and as a side-venture be involved in one of those mega-projects where you play a small role and get your name in 8-point font somewhere on the paper.

 

Basically you have to consider the amount of work you put in for what you get out. if you're doing something you love to do and don't mind putting in the long hours.. great! Go for it! Get that publication and first authorship. If you're doing something that is basically the scut-work for a larger project, that's also okay...as long as you can get your name on a paper without putting in too much work or agony.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[ffp]

Just thought of this idea (amazing how one's mind wanders when one is procrastinating).

 

frenchfrog, maybe there is a resident or fellow in your area of interest who is working on a project but would like some help.

 

For example, I am just startiing a project where I need to review the chart of EVERY patient who has EVER had a drug-eluting stent implanted at our institution (probably a few thousand patients).

 

As a cardio fellow doing 1 in 3 call and trying to study for my FRCPC exam, my time is just a bit limited! I've been thinking of enlisting the help of a responsible, eager medical student or junior resident to help me go through all of those charts. They would be second author for the project, and get to go to conferences if the paper is presented. Additionally, they would make contacts within cardiology/internal medicine, and acquire resources for elective planning, etc.

 

Maybe you could arrange something similar?

 

It is good to do research in your area of interest not only for CV-padding purposes, but also just to make yourself known in that area. The more they see your face, the better it is come CaRMS-time.

 

BTW - as you're only in first year, you may yet change your mind several times about what you want to do. I went into med school thinking I'd be an ER doc. Then, I fell in love with infectious disease. Then, a brief fling with peds and peds cardio. 4 years later, I am happy as an adult cardiology trainee.

[blinknoodle]

Great advice.

 

I was wondering whether research supervisors, if they only know you in the context of your research project and not clinical performance, ever contribute a letter of reference for residency applications?

[Kirsteen]

Great advice.

 

I was wondering whether research supervisors, if they only know you in the context of your research project and not clinical performance, ever contribute a letter of reference for residency applications?

Hi there,

 

Yes they do. A couple of my reference letters in this year's CaRMS swirl are from research supervisors (these folks are also clinicians, by the by).

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[ffp]

blinknoodle,

Yes, when I was reviewing files for IM and cardio, we saw a few letters from people who knew the applicant ONLY in a research context (had never worked with them in a clinical setting).

 

These letters were good for ascertaining work ethic, ability to work independently, intellectual curiosity, etc.

 

My advice would be that if you are going to have a letter from a research supervisor, that's ok. Just make sure that you have other strong letters from clinical supervisors as well.

[ally06]

Last year I was IM chief resident, and therefore intimately involved with the CaRMS file reviews. I also participated in cardiology file reviews and interviews in 2006.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this, but among program directors and staff reviewers, they DO look at the area where you have done your research. Someone applying to IM who has done all urology research is looked upon suspiciously, for example.

 

Hello,

 

I'm currently a first year med student. To follow-up on the above quote, I'm starting to do a research in a surgical specialty but I also have an interst in IM. Where/when should I try to fit in IM research so that I'm not viewed as a "suspicious" applicant, while at the same time have ample research in the surgical field?

 

Without IM research, am I still competitive for the field if I do well during my rotation?

 

thanks a bunch!

 

ally

[Kirsteen]

Without IM research, am I still competitive for the field if I do well during my rotation?

 

thanks a bunch!

 

ally

Hey there,

 

There are a number of factors which make any given applicant competitive for a given career path, and these are also program-specific. So yes, you can still be competitive for IM if you have not completed any research but have done well in your IM rotation.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[ffp]

Yes... Remember, research only counts for so much on the file review and ANY research will get you points!!! In our program, anyway, doing a lot of surgical research would still score you full points in the "research" section.

 

Where it starts to be suspicious is when applicants have (for example) ALL surgical research, all surgical electives, reference letters from surgeons (when applying to IM). Don't laugh... it happens!!! We have a score on our file review (10 points out of 116) for "demonstrated interest in IM". The "all surgical" applicants would score ~0-2 in this area, the "all medicine" keeners would score 8-10, and everyone else would be somewhere imbetween... and you can see it makes up only a small part of the file review.

 

It's always tough to go through CaRMS when applying to more than one specialty and try to make your file look convincing for each. Honestly,the surgical specialties (especially the subspecialties) are much harder to get into than IM. People DO get IM without doing any IM electives, but you would NEVER get plastics or ophtho without an elective.

 

I remember a family doc freaked my class out right before CaRMS by telling us that it is inappropriate to use FM for a backup, and that people who didn't do a FM elective would not be ranked. This is VERY untrue. If you are obvously using FM as a backup, you might not get into some of the more coveted programs... but look at all of the empty FM spots across the country each year... FM is always a safe backup!

 

One little trick for applying to 2 specialties is to try to do related specialties for your elective. For example:

 

- Anaesthesia + IM = critical care

- Gen surg + IM = GI

- CV surgery + IM = cardiology

- Peds + IM = infectious disease and peds infectious disease

- EM + peds = peds emergency

 

you get the picture.