Guest TheShrink Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Hey, I've recently been made aware of some program with the Canadian Armed forces that sounds like a pretty sweet deal on the services. Apparently training with the forces and agreeing to a four-year term, will guarantee that your undergraduate and medical school tuition will be fully covered. Does anyone have any thoughts relating to this at all? I would greatly appreciate any input. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sircoddy Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 what if paul martin goes crazy and decides to attack the united states? u'll be called in for duty, and do you really think you'll survive fighting against the all-powerful george bush? if you don't make it, what's the use of guaranteed tuition? :b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheShrink Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 LMAO... Honestly, my thoughts exactly. I think that it sounds great on the surface but I'm not really into the whole 'army' ideology. IS it true that the Canadian forces are more along the lines of Peace keepers rather than an actual army? I know this sounds lame but after seeing everything that happened in Abu Gharab prison my deepest fear would be to be aiding in violating human rights. I've always wanted to work with organizations like Doctors without Boarders...but joining the army...seems like a step in the wrong direction. But then again I may be over analyzing this whole army thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhiteTiger Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 It depends on what you want to do as a speciality, if im not wrong, they sort of force you into going into an FP residency. This really depends on what you see youself doing with that medical education, if you think you'd fit right in the army and think it could be a lifelong career, go for it, you got nothing to lose. But if you still ain't sure what you want type of residency you want to do, I'd advise against it. Instead, you could get your M.D. the regular way, then go into whatever residency you want. After all this, if you still want to go into the army, you can, as the army still needs surgeons and whatnot, which they hire from the civilian pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FungManX Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Hey WhiteTiger, I don't think they actually Force you to go into FP, I think its just the fact that people who join the military will be around people with EXTREMELY low IQ's. Alot of the people in the army barely got past math 10 :lol .. not that I did that great but.. thats for another thread. But seriously after 'hanging' out with a few of those guys a huge portion of your brain will probably be disfunctional! Which is probably why most of the military people that make it into Med end up eventually matching in FP. In the states I've read on SDN about people that are ER doctors in the military. (actually I've only read of one person) But it seemed like that person was only there because he liked the adrenaline rush... apparently the hospital ER wasn't good enough for him :smokin But anyway the world is in a pretty messed up state right now, especially with GWBush in the throne, I wouldn't take the chance since if you made it into med school you would probably be able to pay off your loans easily anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest papink Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Oh FungManX - that's just cruel! I actually worked as a civilian for DnD a few years ago and I was surrounded by brainy engineers. They knew how to party like all engineers that I knew in university, but they were certainly not brainless! But I don't think it's for me - university and med school takes a huge chunk of time - which makes a lot of other life commitments and choices difficult. (IE marriage + children). Just imagine spending another 4 years traveling to parts of Canada that you aren't interested in living in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shakespearean Fool Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 hey! come on people i'm not in the armed forces, but you gotta realize that in the event of threats to canada, these are the guys who are responsible for saving your ass. in my opinion, its a big responsibility to take on the task of defending one's nation, and i honestly believe that our armed forces dont deserve the bad rap that their getting. you ought to consider yourself lucky that canada is stable enough for you to even bother thinking about applying to med school. in many countries, the oppurtunities we have simply dont exist because said countries are so unstable. quite frankly we're lucky to have the U.S right beside us, and that we're on such (relatively) good relations with them. i'm not saying that war is good and that we all ought to join the military and go fight or something. thats just plain wrongheaded. but unfortunately not everyone is so fair minded. the rampant secularism and self interest that rages in north americans in general tends to cause us to devalue our country and reduce its worth only to what it can do for us. most people are immigrants to canada (as am I), and i am wondering how many of you would be willing to join the armed forces if you had to. what of nationalism and pride for one's country? simply put, you ought to have more pride in the armed forces, and stop seeing canada merely as a 'land of oppurtunity' and more of a place to live, work and play in a safe a secure atmosphere. i come from a country where these things are merely dreamed of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jaegwon Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Shakespearean Fool: Equating secularism with 'self-interest' and 'devaluing our country' not really a fair or accurate thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spitfireMkIX Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Lots of mature opinions in this thread. You don't think it takes intelligence and skill to pilot a multi-million dollar fighter aircraft or ship? Or to be an air traffic controller, army engineer, or artillery operator? Maybe you know more biology than they do, but I'll bet they have you cold when it comes to physics. There are abuses of power in every profession. Maybe you shouldn't become a physician because there have been some who get women to strip naked when there is no reason to. There are good discussion of physicians in the CF in the Med Students and Primary Care Physicians forums. In short, you agree to do a Family Medicine residency and then work for the CF for 4 years, then can leave, stay on as a FP, or do another residency (i.e. surgery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheShrink Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Thanks a lot to everyone for the feedback, and I'll make sure to look into the thread. Does anyone know anything about the Medical Assistant job offering they have, apparently all you need is a high school diploma and training? I'm starting to think that there are a whole lot more strings attached in addition to the obvious. Thanks again ya'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shakespearean Fool Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 i'm not sure about the medical assitant thing, but it seems that for the medical officer thing, you need to be eligible. to be eligible, you have to already be a medical student or a resident, and then decide to switch into the canadian forces. at least thats what i gathered from their website. correct me if i'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest melinda75 Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 More information about the MOTP (Medical Officer Training program) can be found here: www.forces.gc.ca/health/physician/ Like others have mentioned, in order to be eligible for the MOTP, you must choose family medicine initially. However, after you've served for four years, I believe that you can do another residency. There are many health careers in the military. A list can be found here: www.forces.gc.ca/health/r...asp?Lev1=3 Obviously, the military isn't for everyone, but I think that the service men and women deserve our respect for the job that they do. Melinda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ploughboy Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell FungManX, As someone with good friends and family members in the Canadian Forces, *and* as someone who intends to practice as a family doc, I found your post doubly offensive. I can only imagine how the MOTP/MMTP students on this board must feel... Show some respect! We Canadians are fortunate that there have not been hostile troops on our soil in almost 200 years. That's partially due to geography, but also due to the men and women who, often at great personal sacrifice, have taken the Queen's shilling and served to defend us -- even those of us who are clueless numpties prone to shooting off their mouths without thinking... Since you're hanging out here, I assume you're interested in meds, dents or another quote-unquote caring profession. Guess what? The vast majority of your patients are going to be poorer and less educated than you are. Word of advice: You might want to develop a more empathetic view toward those less fortunate than you. To TheShrink... Canada is one of the few nations in the world which has never(1) projected force beyond her borders for imperialistic reasons (hard-core Quebecois may take issue with that statement!), and as a nation we have a well-deserved international reputation for peace-keeping. Heck, we pretty much invented(2) the idea, and our military has performed brilliantly in that tasking. However our army is *not* primarily a peace-keeping or a police force, and despite decades of neglect it is still quite capable of fighting, and fighting well(3). Sad to say however, the CF did face a somewhat analogous situation to the Abu Ghraib debacle in the early 1990s(4), which led (rightly or wrongly) to the disbanding of an entire regiment. Interestingly enough, it was the concerns and suspicions of Majors Armstrong and Jewer (medical officers both) which brought the situation to light and precipitated the subsequent investigation and courts martial. Regarding MSF...I believe MSF is very reluctant to send former military personnel into the field. I suspect this may stem from a concern that MSF would no longer be perceived as a neutral party if they employed docs with military backgrounds. It may also stem from bad experiences. I'm part-way through Bortolotti's _Hope In Hell: Inside the World of Doctors Without Borders_, and one of his stories concerns an MSF MD who in a former life had been a Belgian paratrooper. Once when his clinic (convoy? the book's at home and I'm not) was attacked he decided to returned fire. Apparently MSF docs aren't supposed to do that sort of thing... If you happen to be interested in Canadian foreign policy, peacekeeping, international development, and how sometimes our perception of our role in the world differs from reality, I highly recommend Cohen's _While Canada Slept_. If you'd like more info about becoming a Med A I suggest you poke around the DND recruiting website and look for a Medical Company near you, then give them a call. Cheers, pb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCVyK4/HNgbK3bC2wRAvg9AKCJa1MIGm3coCVbPX8AVnrKv9leAACeODlm BoQw5dpdSHItsX0j0KfeVa0= =bSD4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- (1) well ok, maybe the Boer War, but that was more British imperialism than Canadian... (2) Pearson's Biography (3) Medak Pocket (4) Somalia Inquiry Report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shakespearean Fool Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 hear hear, well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheShrink Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hey, Thank you for your reply your advice will be greatly heeded. I think that perhaps the army would cause a lot of conflict of interest with me personally. Initially I did not want to believe it, but by being Somali and there being put quite lightly political instability in Somalia, which is right near the my mother's country Djibouti, I think if anything were to ever happen I could not see myself being dispatched to help. Another aspect, which would disinterest me from working with the Canadian Forces, would be my religious background. I think a lot of what happened in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharab reflected racism and hate because of religious creed. I read of soldiers instructing prisoners to step on their Qurans or actually stepping on it themselves, and doing other humiliating actions in order to disgrace the prisoners on the basis of their beliefs. I know that the Canadian forces are not notorious for these acts themselves, but this whole aspect that I would be apart of a group, which COULD probably do this, makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. However, I would say the deciding factor was the possible chance of not being able to work with Doctors without Boarders:( . Given that a whole lot of my interest in medicine initially was started by my interest in MSF the mere probability of not being able to work for them puts this issue completely out of the question. Thank you again for your advice, and I will definitely try to get my hands on those books and do some reading during the break. Take care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Truman Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Great post Ploughboy. FungMan would be very surprised to talk to the military doctors I've met. I can't imagine the responsibilities of being a doctor coupled with the stress of being in the field; body exchanges, field trauma, cold weather training, very little sleep, and filling the role of both doctor and officer would be very trying at the best of times. There are many rewards to such a career as well. Kudos to all our soldiers both great and small for their contributions to Canadians and others in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest studentz Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 yeah, those were some pretty dumb comments about our soldiers, or soldiers in general. I'm sure RMC is hard to get into, and the military schools in the US like west point are the most selective undergrad schools there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immunology Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Hi there, I'm new to this post, but I just had to put a word in. I work in the hospital as a grad student nearly finished my degree. Some of the latter discussion shows the maturity and insight of those of you that appear ready to pursue a medical career. Speaking with a number of MD's that I know, and my wife as well, there is a serious issue with some of the MD students. I think the opinions of Fungman are the archetype of this problem. From my sources, there are increasing numbers of self-righteous, arrogant, know-it-alls that are really pissing off some of the good MD's. The problem with thinking you know everything, as either pre-med or med student, is that you don't. There are many dimensions that make a good professional physician, and only one of those is academic factors. Placing oneself 'above' other people, the military, the janitor is a sure sign that you are deficient in certain areas of intelligence - emotional, social, situational, and psychological. If you don't start working at these issues, you will never get what you need to succeed from the docs, physicians, nurses, and other professionals because they won't like how you treat their patients. I'm quite pleased to read the responses to fungman, as you seem like decent persons that will be caring and empathetic with your patients. Caring for people is not simply about 'fixing the biology'. It is the skills that can only be inadequately described in textbooks that make a good health professional. Based on my relationships with profs and MDs, many current students are struggling with these. There is a new discipline of Mind-Body Medicine, which emphasizes the comprehensive approach to care of patients. I'd encourage all of you to have an open mind about what it means to REALLY CARE. How did your mothers care for you when you were sick? What about when you were scared? It is a myth about being detached from patients. Except maybe for surgeons, you will be ineffective as a caregiver if you are detached from the meaning of your actions as a caregiver. You will be cold, and your patients and peers will know. You do have to leave some work at work, but you cannot completely detach from it. Sorry for the rant, but I see and hear of much BS from pre-Meds and med students, whom totally miss the mark about some of these issues. Cheers to all of you that really do want to CARE for others. KUDOS. I wish you all the best. Just remember to treat every patient like a scared child. If you do, you will be the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jochi1543 Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Actually, the forensic pathologist who I guess I could call my mentor did the same thing back in the US. His entire tuition, books AND living expenses were covered by the US Air Force, so he totally breezed through med school without having to worry about money at all. They let him finish his residency in peace, and once he was done, he committed 4 years of service to them. Given his specialty, he was never on the front line. He got stationed in Washington DC at the American Pathology Institute. About half the time he spent in the institute doing research, and the rest he spent primarily in Kosovo digging out mass graves, preparing reports for the United Nations, and doing other cool stuff. Not only was he very rarely in danger, but he also told me that it was an extremely valuable experience and that he is very grateful for making that choice. Rather than "working off" that tuition, he actually received an exciting opportunity. His experience in dealing with mass graves then led him to work on the 9/11 remains. Of course, this may be a very different experience for someone in a different specialty. However, pathology, plastic surgery, and general surgery would be fields where signing up for service may actually be a very good decision. I'm not very familiar with Canadian armed forces, but I guess it would be more or less similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhiteTiger Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 What about the salary issue? From what I gather, you could be making a lot more money if you weren't in the armed forces? Anyone got insight on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immunology Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 More money outside the military ? - quite possible, however, you would have earned about 200000 during the 4 years of MD, plus 12000 tuition x 4, = $248000 earned by graduation. I don't think most people would earn 'That' much with the difference in 'potential' salary during the 4 years after graduation. Actually, non military physicians earn 38000 as post graduate year 1, 42000 as pgy2, 46000, ... etc until the end of residency: 2-6 yrs. So depending on when you finish a residency, this would determine when you would start to make some money. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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