Why go to UoT

[hp18]

I think prestige of the school always plays a major role while selecting undergrad after brilliant high school performance.

[KennethToronto]

I do believe in some form of standardizatiion, however, I disagree that the MCAT is necessarily the best way to go. First of all, I believe that it is an additional economic barrier that makes applying to medschool somewhat elitist (who can afford a summer off, who can pay for Kaplan, etc.).

 

Come on now...my MCAT registration/prep costs were incredibly minor compared to application fees / transportation&accom. to interviews that i have had to shell out. It *hardly* qualifies as an economic barrier.

 

The whole requirement to take a Kaplan course is also junk - anyone can get by perfectly w. registration fee + borrowed Kaplan books. And take a summer off? Honestly, the test isn't that intensive that you have to give up your summer to study 24/7. Working full time + test prepping is perfectly do-able.

[The Law]

I think prestige of the school always plays a major role while selecting undergrad after brilliant high school performance.

 

Not to me. I picked my school trying to see where I would have the best time in undergrad. I'm so happy I picked my school. It's fun, and I'm in an awesome program with lots of opportunities available to me.

[excalibre]

Well, you each make good points. However, a few things to say:

 

a) Economics - The entire med school thing has a bias towards those that are better off (actually, pretty much everything in life is including undergrad, high school marks etc...). The pricing of the MCAT and application are generally not *so* high as to prevent a qualified applicant from applying to all the schools. The fact that wealthier individuals can afford to not work during school, do extra-curricular activities etc.. weight more heavily in the admissions process (I believe).

 

Cut-offs - Cut-offs are a bad policy for schools IF they are trying to attract the best applicants. A stellar applicant may just have stumbled on the MCAT and gotton 9 in verbal instead of a 10. Big deal.

 

c) I still believe that the MCAT is a very good predictor for the reasons I explained above. It is standardized. GPA is not standardized. The OMSAS chart just shows that a 90% is a 4.00 at Mac, but a 3.9 at York. I think MCAT should be weighted as heavily as GPA (roughly speaking), but that if you have good marks, they shouldn't throw your application away just cause you got a 31P on your MCAT.

 

d) By far, the most important part is the interview. More students should be interviewed. The interview should be longer (at least 1 hour). Interviews should be relaxed one on one discussions with an open file where the interviewer learns more about you. There should be several interviews on your interview day - three I say. Then the interviewers get together a few days later discuss your application and then present it to the admissions committee and tell them what they recommend.

 

I think that is the best method of selecting students.

[uofthopeful07]

i personally think uoft's pre-interview admissions process is the cloest to optimal, in ontario.

 

western/queens - cutoffs first.

ottawa - differential cutoffs/sketch

mac- 5 - cutoff ( )/ questions.

toronto - gpa cutoff, references, 1000 word essay, sketch.

 

i think the gpa cutoff is fair, the mcat as flags is fair. i'm not sure the weighting (60% academic) gets you the best applicants. i'm just in favour of this more hollistic approach of considering various components of the application.

 

i also agree that there should be two 1-hour interviews, like they have in the states. a lot of it comes down to resources. i was quite suprised to read the costs of interviewing in an MMI paper published by Mac. apparently the MMI is more economically feasible. maybe with time there will be a greater transition to this. i'm not sure i like the MMI content, but i am definitely in favour of having more than 2 ppl's opinion carrying so much weight.

[uofthopeful07]

Honestly, the test isn't that intensive that you have to give up your summer to study 24/7. Working full time + test prepping is perfectly do-able.

 

says the guy with the 39

[uofthopeful07]

I'm not sure to interpret your comment haha...but I didn't spend 24/7x4mths on it (and no one needs to).

 

i'm just teasing you

 

i agree nobody should have to spend 24/7 studying.

 

at the same time, there's a lot of individual variability. such testing does not come as naturally to everyone. some ppl will surely have to invest many more hours than others. this may mean no summer job. meanwhile, there will be those doing an NSERC, summer school, and who will do very well on the MCAT as well.

[Goldenboy6]

I do believe in some form of standardizatiion, however, I disagree that the MCAT is necessarily the best way to go. First of all, I believe that it is an additional economic barrier that makes applying to medschool somewhat elitist (who can afford a summer off, who can pay for Kaplan, etc.). All of you probably have spent a few thousand dollars writing the MCAT, applying and travelling for interviews, etc. However, recognizing that GPAs do vary from university to university depending on their mentality, I think Quebec has a far better approach. They use statistical calculations to quantify how much you distinguish yourself from the average. Furthermore, they even consider the strenght of your class based on their highschool grades so that if you distinguish yourself less from a group of high-acheivers, you aren't penalized as much. Although controversial due to the complexity of the calculations and the numerical values being somewhat abstract, I believe this system of grading is the fairest and is an incentive for schools to not boost their class averages as some of you have argued. Anyways, just some food for thought!

 

Eric

 

hmm, I've never heard of this strategy before but it makes a lot of sense to me. I always thought that the only way to even the field due to differences in undergraduate institutions is through the MCAT. However the part where they look at your GPA and compare it to the high school average of the entering class could even the playing field as well.

[Smurfette]

Come on now...my MCAT registration/prep costs were incredibly minor compared to application fees / transportation&accom. to interviews that i have had to shell out. It *hardly* qualifies as an economic barrier.

 

The whole requirement to take a Kaplan course is also junk - anyone can get by perfectly w. registration fee + borrowed Kaplan books. And take a summer off? Honestly, the test isn't that intensive that you have to give up your summer to study 24/7. Working full time + test prepping is perfectly do-able.

 

Agreed. I did not take a course and I was working full-time when I wrote the MCAT. I don't think I did any worse than my classmates that did one or both of those things.

[omegaxx13]

According to my friends who took the Kaplan course, the better half of the class gets a 30 average which is hardly spectacular given that they paid $1500+tax for it.

 

MCAT is really just about how much work you put in and how well you read. I think it's the latter point that gives ppl trouble, but I doubt anyone can correlate socioeconomic status with reading skills.

[temp_degoo]

UofThopeful, I agree that Toronto (and McGill for that matter) have the fairest application procedures. They allow that individual with 15/15/9 to be seen, or the individual with 45T/4.00 and no ECs to be excluded.

 

EDIT: I think people would do roughly the same on the MCAT if they were working fulltime or if they spent all their time on the MCAT. I studied with some people who made studying their summer job (every day for 5 hours after TPR classes), and didn't do as well as they had hoped.

With that said, its becoming more prevalent that the pre-MCAT course is becoming obligatory, which does discriminate against those who cannot afford to spend their time and money on it.

[clkt]

Since when are those money-grubbing mcat courses becoming obligatory? They are only for keeners who need a surrogate momma to spoonfeed them all the information and hold their hands while studying. Or they just think that dumping more money into their prep can be an easy alternative to studying. Considering med schools have basic science courses as pre-reqs, the only excuse for taking those mcat courses are if you are a mature applicant who hasn't touched orgo chem in 10 years.

 

The reality is, every school's admission process is slightly unfair. But if each school is unfair in a different way, it will hopefully even out so that one applicant who gets rejected at one school will have a chance at another school.

 

And regarding excalibre's comment about the gpa not standardized, perhaps the OMSAS scale is trying to standardize things ie, it may be considered easier to get a 90% in York than Mac, therefore, 3.9 for a 90% at York?

[Madz25]

Since when are those money-grubbing mcat courses becoming obligatory? They are only for keeners who need a surrogate momma to spoonfeed them all the information and hold their hands while studying. Or they just think that dumping more money into their prep can be an easy alternative to studying. Considering med schools have basic science courses as pre-reqs, the only excuse for taking those mcat courses are if you are a mature applicant who hasn't touched orgo chem in 10 years.

 

 

Hey hey now be nice. Some of us took the course so we'd wake up early for those 9am classes during the summer instead of sleeping in until 2pm every day.

[Kuantum]

Since when are those money-grubbing mcat courses becoming obligatory? They are only for keeners who need a surrogate momma to spoonfeed them all the information and hold their hands while studying. Or they just think that dumping more money into their prep can be an easy alternative to studying. Considering med schools have basic science courses as pre-reqs, the only excuse for taking those mcat courses are if you are a mature applicant who hasn't touched orgo chem in 10 years.

 

The reality is, every school's admission process is slightly unfair. But if each school is unfair in a different way, it will hopefully even out so that one applicant who gets rejected at one school will have a chance at another school.

 

And regarding excalibre's comment about the gpa not standardized, perhaps the OMSAS scale is trying to standardize things ie, it may be considered easier to get a 90% in York than Mac, therefore, 3.9 for a 90% at York?

 

Hey clkt...some of your comments are a little misguided. I can tell you didn't take a prep course because you have an incorrect idea about exactly what they do. First, the information isn't spoonfed to you...it is just reviewed. You are expected to study the material on your own before and after class, and the purpose of class is to review the material and have questions answered. Secondly, prep courses aren't seen as an alternative to studying because...a lot of people who don't have experience with standardized testing use them.

 

I took the Kaplan prep course and realized afterwards that I could have easily done without it. It's not because I thought it was bad, but it just wasn't for me. However, one thing they did help me on was nailing the format of the essay. I don't think I would have been able to do this on my own because none of my essays ever sounded like the S or T essays, however, I got S on my first MCAT and T on my second. Now...I realize I may be an exception, but I am more than willing to give Kaplan a lot of credit for helping me reach that score.

 

I just think you need to realize that prep courses have their strengths and their weaknesses. Depending on the person, the prep course strengths outweigh the weaknesses and for some others, it doesn't.

[Kuantum]

According to my friends who took the Kaplan course, the better half of the class gets a 30 average which is hardly spectacular given that they paid $1500+tax for it.

 

MCAT is really just about how much work you put in and how well you read. I think it's the latter point that gives ppl trouble, but I doubt anyone can correlate socioeconomic status with reading skills.

 

I disagree. Those who are more affluent will likely have educated parents who read to them at a young age, encouraged learning, and were probably sent to better schools. At the university level, everyone has probably reached a reasonable level of reading ability...however, those who are still encouraged to read literature and academic works will likely have an advantage and I think you can probably find a correlation between socioeconomic status and those.

[omegaxx13]

I disagree. Those who are more affluent will likely have educated parents who read to them at a young age, encouraged learning, and were probably sent to better schools. At the university level, everyone has probably reached a reasonable level of reading ability...however, those who are still encouraged to read literature and academic works will likely have an advantage and I think you can probably find a correlation between socioeconomic status and those.

 

Point well taken. However, I think there is a difference between reading and, say, musical pursuits in terms of their correlation with socioeconomic status. Say I tell a bunch of really keen highschool premeds that reading and/or musical pursuits are important for med school admissions. Now many of them will not be able to afford to buy a piano and take music lessons, so even if they were very keen on the stuff they are hindered due to their socioeconomic status. The same excuse cannot be used for reading. Even the poorest kid can head to the school library at lunch time and read for half an hour.

 

I agree that this admissions process really favours the solid middle class kids over the disadvantaged kids. However, we can't really blame EVERYTHING on socioeconomic status.

[paperweight]

I think prestige of the school always plays a major role while selecting undergrad after brilliant high school performance.

 

For certain career paths, probably.

 

For medicine, not even close.

[paperweight]

Yes, as someone mentioned, having a better socio-economic status indubitably provides some sort of advantage in the medical school application process, as with most processes in general.

 

Of course, a brilliant person who worked hard could make up for a financial disadvantage, but not just anyone could do that.

 

Personally, I am very fortunate to have parents who can easily afford to let me take an MCAT course, apply to as many medical schools as I want, etc. etc. without having to worry about working during the summer or during the year. Not everyone is so fortunate.

 

Of course, the system isn't perfect, but I don't think we can simply dismiss the variety of situations that can adversely affect individual's chances. It exists, and hopefully we can continue to improve the system.

[lostintime]

Yes, as someone mentioned, having a better socio-economic status indubitably provides some sort of advantage in the medical school application process, as with most processes in general.

 

Of course, a brilliant person who worked hard could make up for a financial disadvantage, but not just anyone could do that.

 

Personally, I am very fortunate to have parents who can easily afford to let me take an MCAT course, apply to as many medical schools as I want, etc. etc. without having to worry about working during the summer or during the year. Not everyone is so fortunate.

 

Of course, the system isn't perfect, but I don't think we can simply dismiss the variety of situations that can adversely affect individual's chances. It exists, and hopefully we can continue to improve the system.

 

But that's not just for med school. Being rich helps with everything in life, no matter what you do, and what professional schools you apply to. That's just the injusticeness of randomly being born into families of different socioeconomic statuses. The only way to fix it would be to have a Communist/Socialist (I never took poli sci, so I'm just making this up) society where everyone is equal. Otherwise, these differences reflect in every faucet of life, not just med school applications.

 

That being said, yeah I agree, people who are more well off are more fortunate not to worry about financial issues. Plus, people with parents/siblings as doctors already get more inside details about the admission process, especially if their siblings/parents are interviewers or file reviewers. But hey, what can you do, life is unfair.

[jeff101]

But hey, what can you do, life is unfair.

 

You have lung cancer... but hey life is unfair...

 

With all due respect, “lostintime,” I think the disadvantaged in our society, whether by illness or socioeconomic status, deserve a little more than “well tough cookies.”

 

I’m not saying we’re going to change the world tomorrow, but making MCAT prep courses more affordable is a start

[temp_degoo]

Since when are those money-grubbing mcat courses becoming obligatory? They are only for keeners who need a surrogate momma to spoonfeed them all the information and hold their hands while studying. Or they just think that dumping more money into their prep can be an easy alternative to studying. Considering med schools have basic science courses as pre-reqs, the only excuse for taking those mcat courses are if you are a mature applicant who hasn't touched orgo chem in 10 years.

 

The reality is, every school's admission process is slightly unfair. But if each school is unfair in a different way, it will hopefully even out so that one applicant who gets rejected at one school will have a chance at another school.

 

And regarding excalibre's comment about the gpa not standardized, perhaps the OMSAS scale is trying to standardize things ie, it may be considered easier to get a 90% in York than Mac, therefore, 3.9 for a 90% at York?

 

^^ good post. I didn't mean obligatory literally, but most people I talk to did take some course, and spend >1000$.

[lostintime]

You have lung cancer... but hey life is unfair...

 

With all due respect, “lostintime,” I think the disadvantaged in our society, whether by illness or socioeconomic status, deserve a little more than “well tough cookies.”

 

I’m not saying we’re going to change the world tomorrow, but making MCAT prep courses more affordable is a start

 

I know you're just giving an example, but I just don't think it's the best one to illustrate your point. Luckily, Canada is one of the better countries for health care in the world, so even poor people with lung cancer can get treated whereas they may end up dying somewhere else because they have no money to get treatment. And we're comparing this to the scale of taking prep courses?

 

The point is, taking a MCAT prep course are NOT a necessity, along with hiring tutors to help you out, just like how going to a third world country to volunteer whether for personal growth or to put on one's application is not a necessity. It does suck that some people get to do with without hard work while others struggle, but since these things aren't necessities, I'm sure the government has more important things to worry about.

 

The right to education on the other hand, is a necessity, but a prep course isn't really 'education'. People already get their 'education' from their university courses, which OSAP and governmental loans help to pay. I'm not advocating by saying that prep course companies should continue to rip people off, but if anyone is going to start promoting equality, I would say there's a lot more serious issues to worry about first.

[lostintime]

 

And regarding excalibre's comment about the gpa not standardized, perhaps the OMSAS scale is trying to standardize things ie, it may be considered easier to get a 90% in York than Mac, therefore, 3.9 for a 90% at York?

 

But by that logic, supposedly U of T is harder than York ( I say this very loosely based on the general perception of some, no flaming necessary), but a 3.9 at U of T is also 90%. I don't even know what they base that scale on.

[Kuantum]

Point well taken. However, I think there is a difference between reading and, say, musical pursuits in terms of their correlation with socioeconomic status. Say I tell a bunch of really keen highschool premeds that reading and/or musical pursuits are important for med school admissions. Now many of them will not be able to afford to buy a piano and take music lessons, so even if they were very keen on the stuff they are hindered due to their socioeconomic status. The same excuse cannot be used for reading. Even the poorest kid can head to the school library at lunch time and read for half an hour.

 

I agree that this admissions process really favours the solid middle class kids over the disadvantaged kids. However, we can't really blame EVERYTHING on socioeconomic status.

 

It is true that the medial admissions process does favour the middle class. I also agree that everything cannot be blamed on socioeconomic class. However, children from more affluent families (as a generalization) tend to experience a more nourishing environment (including the proper socialization to want to read) than kids from disadvantaged families.

[illusion]

i really have to agree only because of personal experience. i don't qualifiy for osap or any need-based financial aid from university and if it hadn't been for a certain scholarship that i just happened to apply for while in university even with having worked through highschool and university and having lived at home ...im not sure i could have afforded this path. but i guess there are just some things we each have to live with...it's all part of the experience i guess .