MD/PhD to just MD?

[ckim01]

I'm not in med school yet but is it possible to apply in the MD/PhD stream and after you get accepted, choose to do MD?

 

Just not sure if I want to stay in school forever.

[Guest begaster]

My brother-in-law is doing his MD/PhD at U of T. He's told me that if you enter the program then decide to withdraw, you will be blacklisted to hell. It costs the university a lot of money and they lose government funding that would have gone towards bringing in more MD/PhD students.

[ckim01]

yikes... blacklisted to hell? That definitely sounds unpleasant. I guess it's better not to apply to that stream unless I was for sure.

 

Anyone know of someone who actually went through with it?

[Satsuma]

I know someone who did the MD/PhD route. It was alot of work. And this person's younger sibling started med school after and graduated and started working earlier....so that was hard!

 

I think you'd have to really like research to make it enjoyable and worth it.

 

One crap this is that this person didn`t match in the first round. Alot of work to not even end up in the specialization you want. No idea if this person was able to switch after 1st year residency, as I have not kept in touch.

[peachy]

My brother-in-law is doing his MD/PhD at U of T. He's told me that if you enter the program then decide to withdraw, you will be blacklisted to hell. It costs the university a lot of money and they lose government funding that would have gone towards bringing in more MD/PhD students.

That is, quite simply, false. Lots of people drop out of the program each year; it is very common. It is pretty unethical to join the program while fully planning to withdraw, given that you are taking someone else's spot and costing the program money. On the other hand, if you decide that you really don't want to do grad school, it is far better to withdraw than to spend the next five years doing a degree you don't want to do.

[Guest begaster]

That is, quite simply, false. Lots of people drop out of the program each year; it is very common. It is pretty unethical to join the program while fully planning to withdraw, given that you are taking someone else's spot and costing the program money. On the other hand, if you decide that you really don't want to do grad school, it is far better to withdraw than to spend the next five years doing a degree you don't want to do.

 

 

No disrespect intended, but I would trust his word over yours.

[chemgirl]

It's false. I have a friend who dropped out and completed the MD only, and I have been considering leaving myself. I still plan to get the PhD, just not under the constraints of the MD/PhD program. Don't enter the program if you plan to drop out anyways, but if life truly gets in the way, don't be scared that you've shot yourself in the foot by leaving.

 

The program is hard. Hard, hard, hard. Do it if you are extremely passionate about research. Don't do it to get a residency position or financial help. Even passion about research is sometimes not enough to carry you through. I have been quite successful in the program, gotten several publications and have a great supervisor, but the chair of the program is pushing me to defend my thesis in my first clerkship year. I've started writing, but it is just sooo difficult to come home at the end of the day and work on it some more.

 

Perhaps there is a school to school difference of opinion on this matter? Peachy has been a looooong term, extremely helpful, member of this forum and has no reason to post misleading information.

[Guest begaster]

I'm not accusing her of deliberately misleading. I'm merely stating what I have been told by my brother-in-law who's nearing completion of the PhD portion of his MD/PhD at U of T. He says that it's career-suicide, I have no reason not to believe him.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be a **** or a know-it-all jackass. The OP asked for information, and I'm relaying the message I was told when I considered applying to the program myself.

[avenir001]

I'm not accusing her of deliberately misleading. I'm merely stating what I have been told by my brother-in-law who's nearing completion of the PhD portion of his MD/PhD at U of T. He says that it's career-suicide, I have no reason not to believe him.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be a **** or a know-it-all jackass. The OP asked for information, and I'm relaying the message I was told when I considered applying to the program myself.

 

lol, i believe peachy is in the program herself...and i would trust her word over urs or ur brother-in-law's.

[Guest begaster]

Fair enough!

[Alastriss]

I dont mean to hijack, but can you go from MD to MD/PhD?

[Kuantum]

Yes you can. You can apply in the first year of the MD program at most places I know of.

[ckim01]

I hope nobody intends to go the MD/PhD route only to drop out to the MD program. However, it's good to hear that if you have a life altering moment or something to that extent, you can step down to the MD program.

 

Seems like the general consensus is you can do it BUT it's not looked very highly upon.

 

Thanks guys.

[toffeetree]

mdphd is for people who actually have a passion for research - who can't live without doing research, who would be bored out of their minds doing only clinical medicine, and who want to be independent investigators and run their own labs in the end. most serious mdphd programs (ie not the schools that just tack the md and phd together, but that have integrated mdphd programs) would consider graduates who exclusively go into private practice failures...

 

if you don't want to run a lab in the future, seriously reconsider doing mdphd. mdphd programs train physician-SCIENTISTS. and i'm not sure about matching outcomes for residency...i think a phd could only make you more competitive, especially since there is more and more of a push for translational research these days.

 

that said, mdphd is scarily, scarily difficult. and if you drop out of an mdphd program once enrolled, make sure that you have extremely good reasons. otherwise, being "blacklisted to hell" may not be too unreasonable of an outcome...

[chemgirl]

There seems to be a lot of fearmongering surrounding this topic. I don't think anyone can fault you for leaving the program if your intentions were good when you joined and are good when you leave. If you joined to save on tuition with the intention of dropping out, that is bad, obviously. If you joined because you truly thought you wanted to be a clinician scientist and had the research background and/or enthusiasm to back that up... and then later realized that you would be happier being a clinician, I say it's better late than never. Why continue if you will be unhappy and are training for a career that you ultimately do not want? In medicine, we can be worried so much about looking flawless on paper, and live in fear of a nebulous "blacklist" that probably doesn't exist, that we forget to stay true to ourselves.

[chemgirl]

Just looking at some old threads and I dredged this one up... I thought I'd let everyone know what happened when I switched back into an MD. It's really anticlimactic. I got a letter from the dean saying I would have to pay the MD differential tuition (in our school MD/PhD's don't pay this) and that's that. I was already anticipating this, so it was no surprise as it is the obvious and fair outcome.

 

As for being blacklisted, the MD/PhD program director is a professor in the department that accepted me for residency. So I don't think that personally I suffered consequences because of this. The hit was only to my pride, as this is really one of the few big things in my life that I have started and left incomplete, and I don't think I'll ever get over feeling inadequate because of it.

 

I didn't finish due to health reasons. I may finish my PhD in the future, independent of the MD/PhD program. I just couldn't meet their deadline for thesis defence.

 

I had already stopped receiving a monthly stipend for greater than one year because I knew the situation for me was tenuous. I imagine if I had continued to receive a stipend up until now the school may be seeking more financial recourse.

[sfinch]

As long as the research credentials/4th yr specialty courses are solid, actually getting into the md/phd program stream is easier than the direct MD program. Not to mention you find out early whether you got in or not. You also have stronger financial assistance (no, you will not be rich) with this stream.

 

For that reason, people that bail from the PHD component are really looked down upon. If one tried to do that before even starting the thesis component (ie -pre-clinical yrs), I suspect that registration could even be revoked.

[chemgirl]

This must be school dependent. I was admitted to the MD program seperately from the PhD program and on it's own merits, no consideration given to the fact I was doing a PhD. I certainly didn't find out I got in to the MD earlier than anyone else.

 

If everyone signed up for tuition relief and financial support and then bailed, that would be ****ty and so yes, I can imagine you would be looked down upon if you left without a legitimate reason.

 

I wouldn't stay in the program, however, if legitimate circumstances prevent you from finishing the PhD. It's really hard to write your thesis during clerkship, if that is that route you are going. My big mistake was that I asked to be removed from the program in 2006 and was told I was making a rash decision, things may get better. I should have gone with my convictions... everything played out like I knew it would.

[infomeddude]

My brother-in-law is doing his MD/PhD at U of T. He's told me that if you enter the program then decide to withdraw, you will be blacklisted to hell. It costs the university a lot of money and they lose government funding that would have gone towards bringing in more MD/PhD students.

 

I hope this is not true, and it probably isn`t. A person has to work VERY hard to get into a program like this. It is probably one of the hardest programs to get into in Canada. That said, the applicant has every right to turn it down at any point in his life, which should be respected.

[moo]

When I went to school in teh states, the MD/PhDs had to finish their thesis before going to clerkship (The MD/PhDs who joined our class already had their PhDs while rotating with us). I don't know why your school would make you defend during clerkship. There were 10 MD/PhDs in my class that started with us but I think all of them went on to do the PhD. whether they dropped out or not after I graduated... who knows

[Starling]

I've always understood that applicants must apply to both programs and be accepted to both under normal competitive circumstances.

 

Yeah, that was my understanding as well.

[peachy]

As long as the research credentials/4th yr specialty courses are solid, actually getting into the md/phd program stream is easier than the direct MD program. Not to mention you find out early whether you got in or not. You also have stronger financial assistance (no, you will not be rich) with this stream.

At least at U of T, there is no question that the statement above is false. There are numerous applicants who apply to the MD/PhD program and are only accepted to the MD program.

[chemgirl]

When I went to school in teh states, the MD/PhDs had to finish their thesis before going to clerkship (The MD/PhDs who joined our class already had their PhDs while rotating with us). I don't know why your school would make you defend during clerkship. There were 10 MD/PhDs in my class that started with us but I think all of them went on to do the PhD. whether they dropped out or not after I graduated... who knows

 

They didn't make me. I got ill, missed the original defence deadline, was reasonably well enough to go back to school by mid-July and didn't want to take another whole year "off" of medical school to continue writing and defend... I felt that was an excessive amount of time. In hindsight, it was not, and I should have taken the extra time. Regardless, I was allowed to enter clerkship and set a defense date late in third year. I got ill multiple times in third year... you see where this is going.

 

I think the school has a great program, it is my "fault" for having a chronic illness. Essentially I needed to choose what program to devote my energy to, or else I wouldn't finish either if I continued to write during clerkship. I had a block of a few months off after third year when I was going to write, unfortunately I was an inpatient in hospital at the time and had more important things to worry about.

 

Some things just weren't meant to be... it is a bitter pill to swallow.

[mig174]

????

This goes against what many many other posters have said

 

I've always understood that applicants must apply to both programs and be accepted to both under normal competitive circumstances.

 

Why would a MD/PhD be *less* competitive? That makes no sense.

 

sfinch may have a point here. I got into MD/PhD early and don't consider myself a particularly strong MD applicant - merely average, at least as far as marks go (3.9 weighted) and subpar in terms of clinical volunteering; I was waitlisted for Mac interview and rejected at McGill (oop), after all. I think the program looks for qualities that are different that those looked for in an MD applicant. I think they need someone who has shown in the past that a) has a passion for science and its application to medicine (one of the interview questions was "outside of your research area, what applications do other research discoveries have in clinical practice?") is mature i.e. he knows what he's getting himself into (it's a 8-10 year program - why md/phd and not just clinician investigator?) and c) can cope with the stress/interested in things other than just science and medicine (a relatively big topic during the interview)

 

For UofT, the MD program just has to decide whether you're the type of applicant that they would normally accept - maybe they give you a score after the interview and see whether it fits into the range of scores of accepted applicants last year. I don't know.

[anonymouse]

I did most of my PhD before medical school and have been writing my thesis during my first year. Not that anyone would dream of doing it this way by choice, but just for the record, I don't recommend it.

 

My suggestion would be (if you're not 1000% sure you want to do a PhD), but still curious about it - plan to do it during your residency/fellowship. The idea of interrupting med school for a 4 year Phd (regular MD/PhD program) sounds crazy and disruptive to me. However during your fellowship, you'll have substantial clinical experience, and importantly contacts so you can start to design and implement your own translational projects. If you're supervisor is a PhD (not and MD/PhD) this could make you an invaluable ember of the lab. Plus most post-MD PhD students continue with 10hrs or so of clinical duties during their PhD so they don't get rusty.

 

If you wait until residency/fellowship you'll know enough about the clinical medicine you want to do so you can be sure to choose a relevant PhD topic, and importantly you'll know by this time whether you really "need" to be doing research. You may find that clinical duties are fulfilling enough, and perhaps you'll have a family and decide you don't actually want 2 full time careers.

 

Keep in mind there are tons of non-PhD MDs who do research, you're not obviating these opportunities by choosing not to do a PhD.

 

Long story short: if you 100% about medicine, but not research, I suggest you do medicine first, get your real clinical experience, do some research during your training, and don't rush into a PhD before you're absolutely sure its for you.