peter_pan Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 One more comment, then back to the books for studying: Just thought I'd add that a surprising number of people who achieve great success in their lives (ie. Noble Prize winners) did not get there through superficial motivations. To do really, really well in any profession, I think you have to want to do it for reasons other than esteem or money. Is our medical system choosing candidates for the right reasons???? Soo...more studying..is it Saturday night? Oh my, I'm such a geek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joiningtherace Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hey guys,Or maybe the best way to interview people for med school is put them through a lie detector. Good luck guys with the amount of stress one goes thru in an interview, we'll all look like liars but yeh i do agree with most of the points in above posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Man this forum scares me..most people here seem to be so much more qualified than I am that I really question my chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soho Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I agree that the cutoffs are tough to take, in my mind, anyone who's got above a 3.5 in their last year with a top 1/4 MCAT could make it in med school. But there are still way more applicants than spaces... In the least I know that anyone who did get an interview or acceptance instead of me had to work their assess off to get there because I didn't give them an easy pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstk Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The reality as it is in Canada is that the way we select our future physicians is deeply, deeply flawed. Some disagree with me, of course. But the fact that there is a big difference in how one with a 3.85 and a 3.7 GPA is treated I think proves a large point. Canada has a numbers based system. Why? Because it is easy and quantitative. It looks good on paper, and is again, easy. The cold hard fact is, in the end, the type of physician you are will ultimatley depend on your aim in being a physician. And quite frankly, farrrrrrrrrrr too many people do a bunch of crap they do not really care about, are able to memorize well, but fundamentally will probably chillax when they can since they simply don't have to care anymore (ie. analogy to the professor whos so nice to students waiting to get tenor, then gets tenor, and is an ugly bastard). I wish our system in Canada did more to recognize who, in the end, will take their job with passion and hard work, and who is working now with the intent of reaping a relaxing, $$ life afterwards. I agree with the people saying that the grades and MCATs you need to get into med school are borderline ridiculous... and even with those scores, you're spot is not guaranteed. A lot of great people are slipping through the cracks, but the people who are getting in are not money driven, non patient orientated people for the most part. I wanted to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the people in the 1T1 class so far. I expected a lot of nerds with no people skills, but everyone is as awesome as they sound on paper. If they volunteered somewhere to boost their application form, they learned from that experience and are continuing to do as great things in medical school. A lot of people already started research projects on the side, volunteering with doctors to see what real medicine is like, or attending optional guest lectures (on everything from transgender health to surgery in 3rd world countries) on their one hour lunch. What I'm trying to say is that the only reason the application process sucks is because there are far too many qualified people applying. And it’s true, you aren't more qualified if you have a 3.93 gpa vs. a 3.7 BUT its much easier to quantify that difference than the value of volunteering in the ER vs. doing research in pediatric health (and the people who are getting in are good people). One of the perks of U of T is that they have the 1000 word essay for you to pour your heart out on. And they really consider what you wrote in there. My gpa is below the class average but I think because I displayed a lot of passion in my essay and told them what I took from each experience and where I wanted to take medicine, they gave me a chance. So grades are not the “be all, end all” because I definitely took the place of someone with a higher gpa than mine. The last comment I wanted to make is that becoming a doctor is not the only way to make a positive change in the medical world. So many other jobs are available like nurses, midwives, occupational health, epidemiological research, pharmacy, chiropathy, naturopathy, etc… the list is endless. So if your goal is to help people don’t be discouraged if the first, second, third round of applications are unsuccessful. Some people I know worked on sustainable agriculture in third world countries or hemophilia before coming to med school. And if they didn’t get in, they would have continued doing so and would have had just as a rewarding life. Good Luck to Everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest begaster Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Pan, I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between a high GPA and being money-driven. There's no shortage of money-driven people with lower GPAs, and there's no correlation between GPA and how much you're in it for monetary gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Pan, I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between a high GPA and being money-driven. There's no shortage of money-driven people with lower GPAs, and there's no correlation between GPA and how much you're in it for monetary gain. IMO, if you are smart enough to be a doctor, then you are smart enough to go into other careers that make more money than doctors. I don't think that people realize the pressures behind being a doctor. You can kill someone if you screw up...screwing up with other careers can end up as simple as a slap on the wrist or a white-out blot on a page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatthecat Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 not always... think of auditors- especially with all of the recent scandals- if you make an innocent mistake, you can lose your job and go to jail for 10 years. i think that's a bit of pressure. any job where you make a lot of money has lots of pressure- thats why you make lots of money. high-paying jobs have risks- whether it's the fact that you can lose virtually all of your money in one mistake, have to put your life savings into a restaurant and cross your finger, or the stresses of medicine... i mean, there are the few jobs that don't have those pressures, but they are few and far between. just my opinion, though- I'm not trying to spark an argument, just giving the other side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastriss Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 not always... think of auditors- especially with all of the recent scandals- if you make an innocent mistake, you can lose your job and go to jail for 10 years. i think that's a bit of pressure. any job where you make a lot of money has lots of pressure- thats why you make lots of money. high-paying jobs have risks- whether it's the fact that you can lose virtually all of your money in one mistake, have to put your life savings into a restaurant and cross your finger, or the stresses of medicine... i mean, there are the few jobs that don't have those pressures, but they are few and far between. just my opinion, though- I'm not trying to spark an argument, just giving the other side of things. no no i know, If you notice i said you can (italized) i know that many other jobs. Of course every job has pressures, but not all jobs have a pressure as great as the potential to end one's life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_is_hv Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hey All, I got word a while back that I have an MD/PhD interview on Friday Feb 22nd. The letter said that if I get an MD interview I will have it on Feb 23rd. Still no word at all from U of T Medicine about the MD interview. Has anyone received anything yet? (or are we still all in the dark because of U of T's closing on Friday?). Comeon, it's only 19 days away for goodness sake. Thanks all e_is_hv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_pan Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Pan, I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between a high GPA and being money-driven. There's no shortage of money-driven people with lower GPAs, and there's no correlation between GPA and how much you're in it for monetary gain. Hey Begaster, Its great to hear feedback from others, since I realize my views derive from my experiences, and sometimes the gaps get filled when I learn somthing I didn't know. What I'm saying, in reply to your comment, is also the reverse: how can there be a correlation between GPA and the ability to be a good physician? Someone like Oprah Winfrey didn't excel in school and probably would have been rejected from med school, but obviously she is an excellent woman on the forefront of improving peoples' lives. I have awsome grades and a great MCAT, and know I've worked hard to get there. However, I also work with disadvantaged youth, and many of them put in the same effort as I do for school, just to survive their circumstances and try passing school (with 50, 60's) trying to scoot by on the drugs and crime around them in their poor neightbourhoods, on the lack of parental supervision/care they experience. Its no surprise that our medical system consists of a disproportionate amount of students with either high parental support or high socio-economic backing. Someone without these factors may work just as hard as someone with these factors, but only manage 1/10 of the volunteer work and lower grades. If they were given a chance in the right conditions, they could excel. What I find disheartening - in the medical applicant selection process - is the silent discrimination against this. It just doesn't make the same impression on a resume to have done less or performed poorer. Basically, what I'm saying is, having high grades and great volunteer work / other work - in my opion- is often a reflection of an applicants circumstances beyond them. And some one with this may be in it for money, but there is no way to tell, and they are the ones to get accepted. I'm saying these things because I deal with it on a weekly basis, seeing young people, and even if I get accepted to med school I'm going to continue mentoring young people to --- conquer this great divide. I truly beleive applicants should be selected on their wanting to cure people, but I suppose this is difficult to achieve, so grades, excellence of community involvement, other etc., are used to do so. I question, does it relfect an applicant's honest motivations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RightHandMan Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hey Begaster,Its great to hear feedback from others, since I realize my views derive from my experiences, and sometimes the gaps get filled when I learn somthing I didn't know. What I'm saying, in reply to your comment, is also the reverse: how can there be a correlation between GPA and the ability to be a good physician? Someone like Oprah Winfrey didn't excel in school and probably would have been rejected from med school, but obviously she is an excellent woman on the forefront of improving peoples' lives. I have awsome grades and a great MCAT, and know I've worked hard to get there. However, I also work with disadvantaged youth, and many of them put in the same effort as I do for school, just to survive their circumstances and try passing school (with 50, 60's) trying to scoot by on the drugs and crime around them in their poor neightbourhoods, on the lack of parental supervision/care they experience. Its no surprise that our medical system consists of a disproportionate amount of students with either high parental support or high socio-economic backing. Someone without these factors may work just as hard as someone with these factors, but only manage 1/10 of the volunteer work and lower grades. If they were given a chance in the right conditions, they could excel. What I find disheartening - in the medical applicant selection process - is the silent discrimination against this. It just doesn't make the same impression on a resume to have done less or performed poorer. Basically, what I'm saying is, having high grades and great volunteer work / other work - in my opion- is often a reflection of an applicants circumstances beyond them. And some one with this may be in it for money, but there is no way to tell, and they are the ones to get accepted. I'm saying these things because I deal with it on a weekly basis, seeing young people, and even if I get accepted to med school I'm going to continue mentoring young people to --- conquer this great divide. I truly beleive applicants should be selected on their wanting to cure people, but I suppose this is difficult to achieve, so grades, excellence of community involvement, other etc., are used to do so. I question, does it relfect an applicant's honest motivations? I agree with what you say about how the system sometimes discriminate those who work hard and yet not able to excel due to other circumstances. However, I do believe that, although GPA and the ability to be a good doctor (i.e. with good motives) has little correlation, but it is the best way we have to measure one's academic ability. For example, there are two doctors here, and you need a surgery to be performed on you. One doctor is a 90s student and very knowledgeable, but all he cares about is money and he is a complete bastard. The other doctor is a 60s student, not as knowledgeable, but he is compassionate caregiver. If you are to pick one doctor of out the two to perform on you, I think most people would go for the 90s student, even if he is a complete bastard. I know this example is a little extreme, and I am not saying that being compassionate is not good. In fact, it is an essential quality of a physician. However, we must not forget the basic responsibility of a doctor, which is to treat for the sick. Without knowledge, you can't treat the sick. The closest "score" we have to measure how knowledgeable a student is is the GPA scale, and I know it may not be fair to some students, but it is the best measure we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest begaster Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 how can there be a correlation between GPA and the ability to be a good physician? Someone like Oprah Winfrey didn't excel in school and probably would have been rejected from med school, but obviously she is an excellent woman on the forefront of improving peoples' lives. I won't comment on Oprah's marks, as I have no idea what they were or even if she went to college. That being said, an excellent woman she may be, but that wouldn't necessarily translate into being an excellent doctor. Someone who lacks the book smarts, regardless of how big their heart is, will make a shoddy doctor. Even if they can empathize like nobody's business, they simply won't be able to treat patients properly. The GPA/MCAT purports to measure a person's potential academic prowess. Its no surprise that our medical system consists of a disproportionate amount of students with either high parental support or high socio-economic backing. Someone without these factors may work just as hard as someone with these factors, but only manage 1/10 of the volunteer work and lower grades. If they were given a chance in the right conditions, they could excel. What I find disheartening - in the medical applicant selection process - is the silent discrimination against this. It just doesn't make the same impression on a resume to have done less or performed poorer. Basically, what I'm saying is, having high grades and great volunteer work / other work - in my opion- is often a reflection of an applicants circumstances beyond them. And some one with this may be in it for money, but there is no way to tell, and they are the ones to get accepted. Maybe so, but checking off the underprivileged and/or minority box sure as hell isn't going to hurt anyone. And by college time, anyone who wants to get away from wherever they live can. I'm saying these things because I deal with it on a weekly basis, seeing young people, and even if I get accepted to med school I'm going to continue mentoring young people to --- conquer this great divide. I truly beleive applicants should be selected on their wanting to cure people, but I suppose this is difficult to achieve, so grades, excellence of community involvement, other etc., are used to do so. I question, does it relfect an applicant's honest motivations? There's simply no better way. Undoubtedly, some people in it only for the prestige or money slip through the cracks. And even if you reduced the entrance requirements, this wouldn't lower the proportion of people in it for those two factors one iota. You'd basically be forced to rely on little more than the interview, and plenty of people can fake empathy over a one-hour interview. It's far easier than faking caring over the years to build a strong CV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I agree..I definitely value profile > interview. While good interview skills are essential, some very charismatic people can definitely b.s their way through during 1/2 hour. But it would be hard on their part if they truly didn't care to devote hours and hours over many years to the community and school life when they could spend it improving their GPAs and enjoying life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_pan Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Don't worry guys (or girls), I beat to the same drum: high GPA, excellent MCAT, CV to intimidate (started many things from a young age), full scholarship plus some. But, I refuse to consider myself more qualified than someone who has not had the support of loving parents, guidance, or other perks. I honestly beleive and live by the principal that eventually the most successful people in any field are the ones who are the most passionate about it. Whether this is me, you, or someone who struggles to perform at this point. Med schools mostly evaluate performance. I heard a story about a man who wanted to go to University so badly, so badly but he was abused by his stepfather and forced to tend to the farm by his unloving mother. No one beleived he could attend university. He tried to find a way to go, and eventualy it was by working for the university to supplment his placement. He didn't perform too well there either and didn't get good grades. But this man turned into the most successful man ever from that univeristy, contributing to lasting knowledge in subjects that he was once considered below normal. His name was Isaac Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_pan Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Don't worry guys (or girls), I beat to the same drum: high GPA, excellent MCAT, CV to intimidate (started many things from a young age), full scholarship plus some, have been recognized by many awards. But, I refuse to consider myself more qualified than someone who has not had the support of loving parents, guidance, or other perks. I honestly beleive and live by the principal that eventually the most successful people in any field are the ones who are the most passionate about it. Whether this is me, you, or someone who struggles to perform at this point. Med schools mostly evaluate performance. I heard a story about a man who wanted to go to University so badly, so badly but he was abused by his stepfather and forced to tend to the farm by his unloving mother. No one beleived he could attend university. He tried to find a way to go, and eventualy it was by working for the university to supplment his placement. He didn't perform too well there either and didn't get good grades. But this man turned into the most successful man ever from that univeristy, contributing to lasting knowledge in subjects that he was once considered below normal. His name was Isaac Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_pan Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thank you alpine for the info. I haven't read the article but it seems interesting. I suppose the term priveleged should be defined: I have friends who do exceptionally well in school from less well-to do families but with much family support (lots of immigrant families). The stats are the stats: most people in med school come from a highly supportive family/ high socio-economic backgrounds. And I base my observations on the inablity of youth I mentor to do as well as other youth in better circumstances. Even taking it away from med school, for the people who attend university for undergrad, the majority are from the upper margins of society. And not surprisingly, a large majority of criminals in the jail system are from the lower margins of society. I guess we can all say its fair. It sounds great. But I dont buy it. PS. I am also saying I've had the upper end of the deal in my life, so I'm apart of this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger15lily Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Is it possible that this rant could end? Please note the title of the topic is Anyone hear about interviews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 So I'm a bit confused. They said they'll give out rejections as soon as they can. Have rejections ever come out on a rolling basis? Or always at the end? I hate how they keep us waiting....I don't even care if I get rejected anymore. I just want to know as UT is the last school I'm waiting to hear from (well Western too but that's coming soon). If they already know they're gonna reject us, why make us wait until the end? Argh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoDoc Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I feel your pain. I was thinking the same thing after receiving rejection letters from some schools. Thus far, it's been a trying process receiving rejections from UBC, Manitoba, and Ottawa to name a few; where if I were a resident of those areas, I would have met the initial cut offs. But yes, I know exactly the frustration you must feel - I just thought i'd let you know, and hope it makes you feel better in some odd way. Well, all we can do is stay positive I suppose. We'll get there. Raptors and Dayne, I'm in your boat too. Here's hoping for U of T! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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