How much do Physicians make on average in Ontario?

[stefanci]

I agree with The_B, people want to be rewarded for the work they do. If FP were compensated more, then more people would want to enter that specialty. I'm speaking in highly general terms here, but if you're going to be working the hours, then why would people settle for less pay? Providing medical students increased monetary incentive to practice family medicine would probably help make it more appealing. It's absolutely naive to assume that money is not important. Not only do I think it's naive, but I think it's dangerous for people to be so caught up in the idealistic attributes of medicine that they completely neglect the reality of medicine. Doing so will eventually result in a very rude, unwelcome awakening in the future.

 

Leviathan brings up many good points in this thread. Some people are not completely aware of what they are getting themselves into by having ambitions for a medical career. Thankfully, there are some checkpoints in the medical admission process that may weed some of these people out. Anyway, this thread is not entitled "why medicine," but this topic has been discussed numerous times in other threads (for those interested).

 

As The_B mentions, of course you want to help people. Hopefully this is one of your driving ambitions - everyone wants that physician who works his or her heart out for his or her patients. This does not mean that you should not be interested in the fiscal realities of medicine; we are, after all, a capitalist society.

 

LESS PAY???

 

Since when is a 6-figure salary less pay?

 

GPs also have a 2-3 vs 3+ year residency, so its accordingly paid to how much training you get from that...

[The_B]

LESS PAY???

 

Since when is a 6-figure salary less pay?

 

GPs also have a 2-3 vs 3+ year residency, so its accordingly paid to how much training you get from that...

 

It is less pay when your colleague gets over 2-5 times the pay without 2-5 times the training. And I think it isn’t a fair reflection to compare a physician salary to that of the general population since the culture that you will be in is not that of the general pop. When two of your friends from med school are making 400-500k/annum and working similar hours and you are making 150-175, it doesn’t sit as well. Especially when, based on everything you hear in the media and from patients, people need family docs more now than ever. Family medicine is uniquely stressful in that you have patients complaining to you, and yet you are in a position to advocate for them to specialists, some of whom who have the attitude that you are “simply” a family doctor, so it is little wonder that many family doctors wish for better compensation.

 

Now I am not naive enough to say that family doctors receive chump change. It is still possible to have a good lifestyle. But to suggest that it would be somehow “wrong” to want more isn’t fair when you aren't in their shoes.

[thoughtkinetic]

Both of my parents are family physicians. They have NEVER ONCE complained about their incomes, and our family has lived a very comfortable life. We have never worried about paying bills or putting food on the table, as 95% of the world does! Sure it would be nice to make MORE money, but when is enough enough? It's not like you really need that extra $100,000 - you will be perfectly able to live a happy life, own a nice house, take family vacations, and still find time to raise your family. I think it is honourable to want to make enough money to support your family, and I think it is greedy to always want more.

 

Applying to Medicine simply for monetary reasons is the wrong way to go. I attended a private school for 12 years, and the people with the most messed up families were the ones with the most money!

I think Biggie said it best: "Mo money, 'mo problems".

[BlackJack]

Both of my parents are family physicians. They have NEVER ONCE complained about their incomes, and our family has lived a very comfortable life. We have never worried about paying bills or putting food on the table, as 95% of the world does! Sure it would be nice to make MORE money, but when is enough enough? It's not like you really need that extra $100,000 - you will be perfectly able to live a happy life, own a nice house, take family vacations, and still find time to raise your family. I think it is honourable to want to make enough money to support your family, and I think it is greedy to always want more.

 

Applying to Medicine simply for monetary reasons is the wrong way to go. I attended a private school for 12 years, and the people with the most messed up families were the ones with the most money!

I think Biggie said it best: "Mo money, 'mo problems".

 

 

The_B said it best. It's not about the absolute amount of money an FP makes. It's about what he makes relative to his peers.

 

Now, FPs are said to be extremely crucial to keep the Canadian healthcare system afloat. However, if you look at compensation/hour of FPs vs. lets say...anything else!, you will see that there is a massive difference. You would think that such an important lynchpin field like FP would be better compensated, right? Apparently not. Students see this too and thus avoid the field like the plague.

 

As for your comments about being greedy if you want more money - I think that is quite a sanctimonious argument. If one's job is important, demanding, requires a large investment of both capital and time, and cannot be replaced by another, cheaper source of labor, then that person has every right to expect to be paid more money. If one is not being paid sufficiently, they'll either find new work or not do a good job. Additionally, since the field is not being compensated adequately, less people will want to go into it.

 

If medicine does not continue to offer the monetary and societal privilege that it has in the past, then it will not attract the best and brightest of society. In other words, future doctors will be less competent.

 

The truth of the matter is that if doctors do not stand up for their salaries, the money will go somewhere else. In the US, the HMOs and insurance companies are the middlemen who are siphoning the majority of the dollars away. Canada will follow a similar fate if we don't lobby.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I'm also pretty sure that having more money is better than having less money.

[Dr.Cave]

I agree that FP should be paid more as an incentive for recruitment. I don't think the problem is that people are applying to meds just for the $$$ but rather that, once you are in $$$ is a disincentive for FP. I would love to be a family doc, and I'm 90% certain i will be but part of me still says " why the hell don;t I become a specialist and make 5X as much money."

[The_B]

Well said BlackJack, I would also like to add two things.

 

1) Both your parents were family doctors, well that is double the income of the average family doctor isn't it. So to compare your situation to others may not be the best argument.

 

2) People who say you can have too much money likely (note I said likely, don't need someone arguing that they are different) have never not had enough. Socio-economic status has been correlated with "better" lives countless time, be it happiness, health, etc. I remember saying to someone that money can't buy happiness, they quickly responded neither can pocket lint. They went on to say that they would prefer to rich and unhappy vs poor and unhappy. I had no good response.

 

For the record, I certainly think that you can have a great lifestyle working as a family doctor. My argument is that comparatively, in medicine, they aren't compensated adequately (or others are overly compensated, but being in medicine, it can't be that ). Family medicine isn't alone in medicine in this regard, but it is the most widely publicized.

[thoughtkinetic]

The_B said it best. It's not about the absolute amount of money an FP makes. It's about what he makes relative to his peers.

 

Now, FPs are said to be extremely crucial to keep the Canadian healthcare system afloat. However, if you look at compensation/hour of FPs vs. lets say...anything else!, you will see that there is a massive difference. You would think that such an important lynchpin field like FP would be better compensated, right? Apparently not. Students see this too and thus avoid the field like the plague.

 

As for your comments about being greedy if you want more money - I think that is quite a sanctimonious argument. If one's job is important, demanding, requires a large investment of both capital and time, and cannot be replaced by another, cheaper source of labor, then that person has every right to expect to be paid more money. If one is not being paid sufficiently, they'll either find new work or not do a good job. Additionally, since the field is not being compensated adequately, less people will want to go into it.

 

If medicine does not continue to offer the monetary and societal privilege that it has in the past, then it will not attract the best and brightest of society. In other words, future doctors will be less competent.

 

The truth of the matter is that if doctors do not stand up for their salaries, the money will go somewhere else. In the US, the HMOs and insurance companies are the middlemen who are siphoning the majority of the dollars away. Canada will follow a similar fate if we don't lobby.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I'm also pretty sure that having more money is better than having less money.

 

I can't say that I would agree with you on your having more money quote.

 

While I would not be opposed to making more money as a family physician, I do think it's absurd to think that it's deserved...Family Doc's make a healthy sum of money, and while it requires a large investestment of time, specializing takes even more time and dedication, and they also make more money. If you really want to make the top end dollar, then you've got to put in the extra time and work for it.

 

Almost all of the very wealthy people work their butts off for it, but that leaves very little time for anything else. Family medicine offers a very generous salary and leaves you with time for the rest of your life. What's the point of making all that extra money if you have no one to enjoy it with or no time to spend it?

 

"Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." - Albert Einstein

[The_B]

I can't say that I would agree with you on your having more money quote.

 

While I would not be opposed to making more money as a family physician, I do think it's absurd to think that it's deserved...Family Doc's make a healthy sum of money, and while it requires a large investestment of time, specializing takes even more time and dedication, and they also make more money. If you really want to make the top end dollar, then you've got to put in the extra time and work for it.

 

Almost all of the very wealthy people work their butts off for it, but that leaves very little time for anything else. Family medicine offers a very generous salary and leaves you with time for the rest of your life. What's the point of making all that extra money if you have no one to enjoy it with or no time to spend it?

 

"Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." - Albert Einstein

 

See I disagree with the premise that family doctors train that much less. For some reason it is always a comparison of 2 to 5 years instead of 6-9 years (taking into account medical school.) Taking that into account, because it is a requisite part of the training for all physicians, many specialties gross far more than double what a family doc makes. This is true even when you consider hours. When you look at the highest earning specialties such as optho, derm, and radiology, where lifestyle is still quite good, but income is substantially higher, you can see that the income isn't a function of "how hard they work*".

 

And your quote of Einstein is just plain unfair Of course people should strive to be happy instead of rich etc, but to have a constructive debate about what some perceive as an unfair situation doesn't mean that one can't be happy with what they have.

 

*For the record, I think these doctors work quite hard, just not significantly more than FPs.

[stefanci]

See I disagree with the premise that family doctors train that much less. For some reason it is always a comparison of 2 to 5 years instead of 6-9 years (taking into account medical school.) Taking that into account, because it is a requisite part of the training for all physicians, many specialties gross far more than double what a family doc makes. This is true even when you consider hours. When you look at the highest earning specialties such as optho, derm, and radiology, where lifestyle is still quite good, but income is substantially higher, you can see that the income isn't a function of "how hard they work*".

 

And your quote of Einstein is just plain unfair Of course people should strive to be happy instead of rich etc, but to have a constructive debate about what some perceive as an unfair situation doesn't mean that one can't be happy with what they have.

 

*For the record, I think these doctors work quite hard, just not significantly more than FPs.

 

You'll see specialists working more hours than FPs as well....

 

The compensation is more than enough for what an FP does, and same with any doctor. They make what they deserve, no more no less.

 

As it stands, there are also other jobs that are just as stressful and important to society that arent compensated as well. (if you dont agree spending 10 years in school to get over 100,000; that's your own problem; or just move to the US and stop complaining!)

 

That's why theres also Carms, not everyone can be a certain speciality, much like not anyone can become a doctor.

 

Reading these posts has changed my mind as to why most of the doctors put up with people's sh1t all their lives...it's all about the money at the end of the day....

[The_B]

You'll see specialists working more hours than FPs as well....

 

For some specialties this is true, but for many others, such as the ones I listed above, that isn't so.

 

The compensation is more than enough for what an FP does, and same with any doctor. They make what they deserve, no more no less.

 

As it stands, there are also other jobs that are just as stressful and important to society that arent compensated as well. (if you dont agree spending 10 years in school to get over 100,000; that's your own problem; or just move to the US and stop complaining!)

 

With all due respect, I don't think it is for you (or for me) to dictate what they deserve. I think it open to debate. Having said that, with more and more people not having a family doctor, this is one of the many facets that may be to blame.

 

What you call complaining, I call debating. As I said before, I believe that you can have a great lifestyle as an FP, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't reach a level of compensation closer to that of specialists (this is true of many fields as I stated prior, such as physiatry, psych, ER sometimes, among others).

 

 

Reading these posts has changed my mind as to why most of the doctors put up with people's sh1t all their lives...it's all about the money at the end of the day....

 

I'll say it again, that is unfair. Most doctors I have talked to have said to me that they really do love their job. Those days you have a rude patient or something bad happens the doctor puts up with it because 1) it's part of the territory, and 2) because they feel like to make a difference you have to deal with the good and the bad.

 

This doesn't mean that they don't want to have the resources to see the world with their family, give money to a charity that means something to them, and get that car they have dreamt about since they were little. Some people here quickly dismiss the argument for increase compensation for FPs as greed, instead of looking at the inequity within the profession, and also considering that there are few occupations out there that don't desire more. The reason we are discussing it for FPs is because of the shortage out there and we are all in medicine or want to be.

[BlackJack]

You'll see specialists working more hours than FPs as well...

 

I don't see how the total number of hours worked makes any difference here. The argument is compensation per hour. That being said, an FP has to work twice as many hours to net half as much as an ophthalmologist would in a 40 hr week. Additionally, FPs are required to do a lot of work that is not compensated - mostly paperwork and practice management - that is not required by more specialized doctors.

 

 

The compensation is more than enough for what an FP does, and same with any doctor. They make what they deserve, no more no less.

 

I would like to hear your line of thinking with this. Please give an explanation.

 

According to the current student and medical climate, you'd be wrong though. Students do not think FPs make enough because students just aren't going into it. FPs aren't even interested in doing office practice anymore because it just is too much hassle for too little money. It's essentially a business, like a corner store, where you cannot decide on the price of your services. There's no opportunity to advance monetarily or professionally.

 

As it stands, there are also other jobs that are just as stressful and important to society that arent compensated as well. (if you dont agree spending 10 years in school to get over 100,000; that's your own problem; or just move to the US and stop complaining!)

 

Medicine is unique to these jobs because it demands that its applicants are of the highest intelligence and social character. It demands that these applicants train for years to become sufficient at the art of medicine, and to sacrifice their young lives and their credit ratings for this. This training is necessary so that doctors can make life-or-death decisions for patients with accuracy and efficiency. I can think of no other job where the criteria are so stringent, and the job so intimate and personal, than medicine.

 

Of course, if doctors continue to be compensated at the current level, what you'll see is the applicants of highest intelligence and social character doing something else instead. We will end up with lower quality physicians, or god-forbid, midlevels.

 

As for your comment about going to the US for training, well, lots of people are doing that.

 

 

That's why theres also Carms, not everyone can be a certain speciality, much like not anyone can become a doctor.

 

The problem with CaRMS is another discussion. Essentially it is the very limited time in which applicants have to make a decision about the career they want to follow for the rest of their lives based on nothing more than a few electives, perceived notions about the career, and connections. If CaRMS were open to any doctor or graduate at anytime, then I would not have as much of a problem with it.

 

Reading these posts has changed my mind as to why most of the doctors put up with people's sh1t all their lives...it's all about the money at the end of the day....

 

Why make 150k when you can make 250 or 350k? Doctors are smart.

[mbene085]

stfanci - you talk about other important professions earning less, and FPs earning what they deserve. But take a look at the comparisons within the field of medicine that people are posting. Some specialties involve a couple more years of residency than family medicine, but earn several times as much. Does a family physician deserve 1/4 of the pay of a pathologist? When you look at your choices as a med student, FP is not very attractive on paper. It's only really attractive if you have a genuine passion for it - enough of a passion to tolerate the systemic and general under-appreciation of FPs in our system.

[jmlconkl]

Er, I think there are some misconceptions/exagerations within this thread as the the average amounts that specialists vs FPs actually make.

 

There are at least 5 posts stating that specialists make "several times" what FPs do... In canada anyways this would be quite rare.

 

See the link below for (outdated 2001-2002) CMAJ statistics on canadian sallary by province and specialty.

 

In Ontario for example, FPs avg ~200k while medical specialists avg ~250k. Hardly an increase of "several times". A 25% increase is probably reasonable for the increased training required and probably slightly greater hours worked.

 

For surgical specialties the discrepancy is greater, but as has been mentioned, many of these specialties offer a SIGNIFICANTLY worse lifestyle, more hours, more call, and MUCH greater interference with family life (on average I am talking here, of course there are exceptions).

 

To me it seems more like there are a few specialties which may be slightly "overpaid" (e.g., rads, opthalomology which everyone uses as examples of specialists when in fact they are the exceptions even among specialties) rather than FPs being underpaid.

 

That said, I completely agree (and this thread confirms) that increasing FP sallaries should be at least part of the solution to the current FP shortage as obviously money is at least a partial factor in most med students choice of specialty.

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

 

Edit: another factor to consider would be the effect of different tax brackets, which of course significantly reduces the discrepancy between pay scales.

[mbene085]

Er, I think there are some misconceptions/exagerations within this thread as the the average amounts that specialists vs FPs actually make.

 

There are at least 5 posts stating that specialists make "several times" what FPs do... In canada anyways this would be quite rare.

 

See the link below for (outdated 2001-2002) CMAJ statistics on canadian sallary by province and specialty.

 

In Ontario for example, FPs avg ~200k while medical specialists avg ~250k. Hardly an increase of "several times". A 25% increase is probably reasonable for the increased training required and probably slightly greater hours worked.

 

For surgical specialties the discrepancy is greater, but as has been mentioned, many of these specialties offer a SIGNIFICANTLY worse lifestyle, more hours, more call, and MUCH greater interference with family life (on average I am talking here, of course there are exceptions).

 

To me it seems more like there are a few specialties which may be slightly "overpaid" (e.g., rads, opthalomology which everyone uses as examples of specialists when in fact they are the exceptions even among specialties) rather than FPs being underpaid.

 

That said, I completely agree (and this thread confirms) that increasing FP sallaries should be at least part of the solution to the current FP shortage as obviously money is at least a partial factor in most med students choice of specialty.

 

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

 

Edit: another factor to consider would be the effect of different tax brackets, which of course significantly reduces the discrepancy between pay scales.

 

The issue is more complex than numbers on paper. Reported income isn't necessarily accurate. I have a family member in medicine in Quebec (a specialist) and his cardiologist friend was pulling in $1 million/year because of the amount of under-the-table cash pay he got beyond his salary cap at the time.

 

Some specialties certainly don't get paid all that much more than family medicine. Some really do. And evidently there's some stuff that goes on that probably shouldn't.

[A-Stark]

What you call complaining, I call debating. As I said before, I believe that you can have a great lifestyle as an FP, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't reach a level of compensation closer to that of specialists (this is true of many fields as I stated prior, such as physiatry, psych, ER sometimes, public health, among others).

 

Fixed. Although public health physicians don't have much overhead to speak of, they are not at all well compensated as compared to other specialties, particularly since many began their careers in other specialties (or, most often, family practice).

[jmlconkl]

All the same, such exceptional cases are hardly relevant to the issue of how much an FP should be paid. Numbers on paper may not be 100% acurate, but those reported by the CMAJ do give a "ballpark" estimate of what a middle of the road physician could expect to make in a given specialty. And from these numbers it doesn't look like the average specialist makes "several times" more than the average FP, more like 20-50% more.

 

Just because a (very) few specialists are able to make $1 million/year doesn't really suggest that we should increase the pay of FPs to anywhere near that amount.

 

The best reason to increase pay for FPs is simply because we need them, there is a shortage, and therefore in order to meet the shortage, financial compensation is one of the surest methods of making the specialty more appealing to med students.

 

The issue is more complex than numbers on paper. Reported income isn't necessarily accurate. I have a family member in medicine in Quebec (a specialist) and his cardiologist friend was pulling in $1 million/year because of the amount of under-the-table cash pay he got beyond his salary cap at the time.

 

Some specialties certainly don't get paid all that much more than family medicine. Some really do. And evidently there's some stuff that goes on that probably shouldn't.

[The_B]

All the same, such exceptional cases are hardly relevant to the issue of how much an FP should be paid. Numbers on paper may not be 100% acurate, but those reported by the CMAJ do give a "ballpark" estimate of what a middle of the road physician could expect to make in a given specialty. And from these numbers it doesn't look like the average specialist makes "several times" more than the average FP, more like 20-50% more.

 

 

The problem with using these ball parks is that they don't take into account amount of time worked whatsoever. So a part time cardiologist or endocrine doc could still make 100k, but skew the numbers downward for the specialty. Based on word of mouth, I'd say that the numbers on here aren't an accurate full time projection for most specialties. For many internal medicine disciplines, I've heard 3-400k as a good average....double that of many family docs for similar work.

[stefanci]

Why dont we make all doctors and all specialities earn 60,000$(after taxes), and see who is really willing to put in the years of effort for the benefit of society and not money.

 

I think any salary over, or even 100,000$/year is more than enough to be compensated for what doctors do.

 

I dont like the fact that people say that training, making decisions, etc, are something that you're going to put a price on.

 

Yes, we do need more FPs, but we can simply need as many specialists as we do FPs. Carms could probably solve this issue by making more FPs residency spots, and put less room for specialized residencies. (ugh, stuck now arent we, since we do need both....)

[MillerTime]

stefanci, i've gotta ask, what sort of direct experience do you have with regards to the amount of work, training and hours that GPs and specialists put in?

 

also, you say that you don't like the fact that people say that training, making decisions, etc. are something to put a price on. Can you explain why you think this/where you're coming from? If you ask me, training and responsibility of making sometimes life/death decisions are an extremely good thing to put a price on.

[Hatchepsout]

stefanci, i've gotta ask, what sort of direct experience do you have with regards to the amount of work, training and hours that GPs and specialists put in?

 

also, you say that you don't like the fact that people say that training, making decisions, etc. are something to put a price on. Can you explain why you think this/where you're coming from? If you ask me, training and responsibility of making sometimes life/death decisions are an extremely good thing to put a price on.

 

Why do you seem so upset? It's not like MD is the only profession that requires training and responsibility.

 

PhDs study as long as MDs and the life can be as stressful.

 

And regarding the pay, if I had the choice between working minimum wage in a factory or pursuing school to become a physician also at the minimum wage, I would still go for it because working in a factory would drive me nuts.

 

And it's even more shameful that other professions that require no training or responsibility are associated with much higher salaries than medicine, cinema for example.

 

It is true that if the salaries were not as good and the recognition so high, not as many people would go in medicine.

[The_B]

Why dont we make all doctors and all specialities earn 60,000$(after taxes), and see who is really willing to put in the years of effort for the benefit of society and not money.

 

I think any salary over, or even 100,000$/year is more than enough to be compensated for what doctors do.

 

I dont like the fact that people say that training, making decisions, etc, are something that you're going to put a price on.

 

Yes, we do need more FPs, but we can simply need as many specialists as we do FPs. Carms could probably solve this issue by making more FPs residency spots, and put less room for specialized residencies. (ugh, stuck now arent we, since we do need both....)

 

stefanci, I have read your comments, and I believe they are very well intentioned, and very idealist. It would be wonderful if only the caring people went in medicine. It would be even better if these people went into medicine because they wanted to help people as the number one reason. It would be wonderful if these people only cared about helping others, and not making money.

 

But guess what, we live in Canada, a capitalistic society. Guess what, practicing medicine is HARD WORK that not just anyone can do. We want the best and the brightest to do it. Being caring is the second consideration, not the first. That is a part of the job, and ideally the admissions process does the best job it can to get the best of both caring and ability, but fact is you need a competent doctor before you need a caring doctor. If money is the carrot that our society has mandated to be put out there, then to get the best and brightest you need to pay more than society average. It isn't ideal, but that is our society. You said earlier that if someone is in medicine for money, then move to the states. Well in my opinion, if you reject someone being in medicine partially for the money, then move to China.

 

 

Not to derail this thread anymore, but I need to rant here... this always bugs me that people say they are going into medicine "to help people". It is such a fake answer. If that was the only reason, then volunteer. You'll make more of a difference with much less stress. Becoming a physician means your are entering a career. There will be times it will suck. Patients will suck. Hours will suck. The best doctors, and the ones I look up to all tell me that to be a good doctor, you need to understand that it is a JOB. Do your job to the best of your ability, then go home. Helping people is a perk of the job. It is an important perk, and should drive a physician to do the best they can. But having said that, if it is your #1 reason for being there, you should make your life easier by going into other fields, because a day will come when something happens, and you will resent the patient/the hours/the responsibility, and you will burn out and hate your job and be of little use to anyone. /end rant

 

Also, as to your comment on CARMS, part of the problem is that, especially in Ontario, not enough people are choosing family medicine. I've heard that ideally, it is ~ 50/50 split for FP/Specialties. For awhile here it has been less that 40/60. We are producing specialist in many fields that can't find jobs. This simply doesn't happen with family medicine.

[unknown user 7]

Why do you seem so upset? It's not like MD is the only profession that requires training and responsibility.

 

PhDs study as long as MDs and the life can be as stressful.

 

And regarding the pay, if I had the choice between working minimum wage in a factory or pursuing school to become a physician also at the minimum wage, I would still go for it because working in a factory would drive me nuts.

 

And it's even more shameful that other professions that require no training or responsibility are associated with much higher salaries than medicine, cinema for example.

 

It is true that if the salaries were not as good and the recognition so high, not as many people would go in medicine.

 

Arguably, couldn't such professions rely on talents that can't simply be produced by hard work, hence the compensation...I dunno. I mean, I'm sure if a lot of people didn't watch movies that much, they wouldn't be paid that much, but millions of people do, possibly why they get compensated so much.

[kaymcee]

PhDs study as long as MDs and the life can be as stressful.

I laughed when I read this. The stresses are not equivalent by any means. What's a bad day for a PhD? Getting scooped by a rival colleague? Leaving the Taq out overnight?

Why dont we make all doctors and all specialities earn 60,000$(after taxes), and see who is really willing to put in the years of effort for the benefit of society and not money.

I also laughed when I read this. Are you in medical school yet? The tremendous responsibility and accountability you have as doctor demands more compensation than 60k per year.

 

I think that many of your arguments are moot, seeing as how, in Ontario FHN or FHTs, FPs get paid very handsomely—on par with many specialists. Can't we all get over the fact that all the NPC specialties are overpaid? It's among the many reasons why they're popular choices every March.

 

Let's be fair: when you're making $175k annually, what's the next really big step up in terms of it making a difference to your overall quality of life? I'd say it's about $500k. If you're in that top echelon of doc pulling in half a million dollars a year, kudos. We're both in the top 5% of earners in Canada.

 

I don't have a problem with the idea of becoming a FP because I don't want to sit in a dark room for most of the day, or diagnose rashes, or work in an area the size of a postage stamp. They can have it.

[A-Stark]

I laughed when I read this. The stresses are not equivalent by any means. What's a bad day for a PhD? Getting scooped by a rival colleague? Leaving the Taq out overnight?

 

I had a whole reply ready but it got lost. The notion that academics (except for a couple years before tenure) lead anything but a relaxed lifestyle (if they want it) is not borne out by practice. For that matter, while grad students often have irregular hours, but for the few weeks where one studies for comprehensives or to prepare for a defence, there aren't really many stressful moments. And "irregular hours" have more to do with being able to take the day off whenever you feel like it, or else sleep til noon four or more days a week.

 

For that matter, grad students actually get paid enough at least to subsist during their education, and funding invariably covers most if not all expenses including tuition *and* rent. If physician salaries were to be reduced or capped to any degree, tuition fees would have to fall *sharply* first, and grad-student-style stipends would be amply justified. You can't make students take on $100k in debt and expect them to be happy that their salary will never top $100k.

[kaymcee]

...so...you're...agreeing with me?