avenir001 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Psychiatry - $168,065 Family Medicine – $190,000 lol..i've seen these figures before...why would anyone put themselves thru a 5-yr residency to become a psychiatrist...and earn less than an fp lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I can't believe I'm propogating the madness, but here's the link to the most recent public salary disclosure figures from Ontario. For salaried positions working out of hospitals (eg pathologists, radiologists, some psych, etc) it gives an idea, at least. This is obviously not representative of all physicians, and salary may not be the only source of income for the physicians on the list. http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2008/hospit08.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medordie Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Psychiatry - $168,065Family Medicine – $190,000 lol..i've seen these figures before...why would anyone put themselves thru a 5-yr residency to become a psychiatrist...and earn less than an fp lol The 2005-2006 gross fee for service payments for ontario were about 190,000 for a psychiatrist and 230,000 for family. Overhead may be considerably less for psychiatrists (If overhead is 30% for the FP, net is 160,000, if it is 50% as some on this board have suggested, the FP is down to 115,000). Based on overhead I believe the psychiatrist net would top the FP. Looks like the psych residencies are not too demanding in terms of call, so maybe not a bad 5 years if that is what you are interested in. I have seen where FPs limit their practice to psychotherapy, which to me seems like a great way to do some psych, have the flexibility of practice areas and shorter training of an FP, and also this type of practice would require minimal staff/overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock* Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I can't believe I'm propogating the madness, but here's the link to the most recent public salary disclosure figures from Ontario. For salaried positions working out of hospitals (eg pathologists, radiologists, some psych, etc) it gives an idea, at least. This is obviously not representative of all physicians, and salary may not be the only source of income for the physicians on the list. http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2008/hospit08.html Pathologists making upwards of $399k/year? Daaamn. That's almost intriguing enough for me to sell my soul and enter a world of miserable microscopes and rotten dead body parts. Just Kidding Still not doing path Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown user 7 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Psychiatry - $168,065Family Medicine – $190,000 lol..i've seen these figures before...why would anyone put themselves thru a 5-yr residency to become a psychiatrist...and earn less than an fp lol They may find it interesting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 that's crazy talk! interest in what you do for a career??? pffft! I'd rather take the interest on my buckets of money any day of the week! ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown user 7 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 that's crazy talk! interest in what you do for a career??? pffft! I'd rather take the interest on my buckets of money any day of the week! ... What about the whole thing about doing what you love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylem29 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I think you're missing the point. There's not a heck of a lot of money for all of the time you need to put into it. That's why so many medical students become depressed or even commit suicide in the upper years. If you aren't in it for the right reasons, you will become extremely unhappy with your life. Yes I know that - my point was that it's the same thing with other similar paying professions, it's not like the medical profession requires more time or effort than the rest. I think that's an exageration with the suicide thing man! lol. The point is - going into anything simply for the money is not going to work out in the long run. It's okay if money is the primary reason for entering into a profession, but you have to have some interest in what you do at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jikuty Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 The 2005-2006 gross fee for service payments for ontario were about 190,000 for a psychiatrist and 230,000 for family. Overhead may be considerably less for psychiatrists (If overhead is 30% for the FP, net is 160,000, if it is 50% as some on this board have suggested, the FP is down to 115,000). Based on overhead I believe the psychiatrist net would top the FP. Looks like the psych residencies are not too demanding in terms of call, so maybe not a bad 5 years if that is what you are interested in. I have seen where FPs limit their practice to psychotherapy, which to me seems like a great way to do some psych, have the flexibility of practice areas and shorter training of an FP, and also this type of practice would require minimal staff/overhead. I was going to say the same thing about overhead. Also, does psychotherapy get billed privately, because I know at one point OHIP wasn't covering it in Ontario. These figures all came from government fee for service billing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medordie Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I was going to say the same thing about overhead. Also, does psychotherapy get billed privately, because I know at one point OHIP wasn't covering it in Ontario. These figures all came from government fee for service billing. Yes, GP psychotherapy does get billed through OHIP which is why some patients prefer it to seeing psychologists, social workers, or marriage/family therapists who are paid privately. The other obvious advantage is that the GP can also prescribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koft Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 oh my, i think nowaday many ppl go into medicine for the wrong reason. One accountant who deal with many physicians and surgeons in Ontario told me, the average life time earning of a MD will be around 8 - 9 millions Of course Plastics, Derm and Ophthal sort of skew this number. You won't be wealthy being a MD, but you will be comfortable. If you don't love / enjoy what you do, it is a dead end JOB! Money is secondary! Anyways, there is always demerol to help with the pain! j/k ________ Toyota Raum Specifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Yes I know that - my point was that it's the same thing with other similar paying professions, it's not like the medical profession requires more time or effort than the rest. I think that's an exageration with the suicide thing man! lol. Not an exaggeration at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown user 7 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Pffft, they say all the high-stress careers are like that. Whenever I hear someone mention they want to be a dentist, lawyer, doctor or get their mba, I normally hear the famous line. "[profession X from above] has the highest suicide rate]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCP90 Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Why the heck is the government so involved in Medicine? They put the yellow tape over everything and there's so many rules and policies. It's a shame. It should be more like the business called Dentistry. Are there any groups out there fighting for physicians to get more cash? I still think docs are underpaid. I also think FPs should start getting some serious cash even if you don't go live in the wilderness of rural Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Are there any groups out there fighting for physicians to get more cash? I still think docs are underpaid. I also think FPs should start getting some serious cash even if you don't go live in the wilderness of rural Canada. I totally agree. If FPs were paid far more, we would not have the issue of a shortage. Personally, I believe that we should go back to the old system where every med grad did a rotating internship year and then were free to practice general medicine. If they wanted to go ahead a few years later and take up a new residency in what interested them, they were free to do so. The current system traps grads in their match choice. Besides pay, another reason FP is so unpopular is because there is little chance for career advancement: there are few fellowships available in FP, and it is near impossible to get into another residency once you've gotten your CCFP. Sure, some may say "resident-extender programs" are offered, but the choices are always very limited. Let's just say if one decided that ortho was his true calling after a few years out practicing as an FP, he'd be out of luck. Oh, and on a side note: RCP90- the cheapest, and therefore best, gun in Goldeneye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughboy Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Why the heck is the government so involved in Medicine? Darn that Tommy Douglas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vip_138 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I think you're missing the point. There's not a heck of a lot of money for all of the time you need to put into it. That's why so many medical students become depressed or even commit suicide in the upper years. If you aren't in it for the right reasons, you will become extremely unhappy with your life. where are you getting this info that there are higher suicide rates with medstudents, and even if it is higher, how are you attributing this to them seeing a lack of compensation? There is evidence that physician suicide rates are higher than the general population but who says its due to declining compensation. There doesn't seem to be any correlations with specialties, if you're right, shouldn't there be less suicide in more lucrative specialties (ie. plastics/derm)? I'm assuming that it suicide has more to do with dealing with stressful situations/patients as a doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 where are you getting this info that there are higher suicide rates with medstudents, and even if it is higher, how are you attributing this to them seeing a lack of compensation? It doesn't have to do with a lack of compensation, it has to do with an overwhelming workload for something that they have no interest in being involved in, and something that they are basically trapped into finishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vip_138 Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 It doesn't have to do with a lack of compensation, it has to do with an overwhelming workload for something that they have no interest in being involved in, and something that they are basically trapped into finishing. "There's not a heck of a lot of money for all of the time you need to put into it. That's why so many medical students become depressed or even commit suicide in the upper years" That seems like you're suggesting decline/lack of compensation in relation to workload, for medical student suicide/depression ... and you're still not stating where you get the idea of suicide. I agree that there will be a certain number of people each year that may realize they don't have an interest in medicine, but they'll eventually find a specialty they can tolerate or go on and use their MD degree for something else other than clinically. Give me a specific source for a high suicide rate for medstudents that's due to them being 'trapped' or whatever. The only study i found was this (below), and the suicide rate doesn't seem particularly high nor does it involve the reasons you're suggesting, and most of the students had psychiatric histories before medschool. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/4/553 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seprehon Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I can't believe I'm propogating the madness, but here's the link to the most recent public salary disclosure figures from Ontario. For salaried positions working out of hospitals (eg pathologists, radiologists, some psych, etc) it gives an idea, at least. This is obviously not representative of all physicians, and salary may not be the only source of income for the physicians on the list. http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2008/hospit08.html'>http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2008/hospit08.html Word of warning to everyone, these salary disclosures only list doctors/employees who were paid over $100,000 a year (see: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/). There are probably quite a few doctors in certain specialties (family? psychiatry?) who make slightly under $100,000, but their salaries are not disclosed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 and you're still not stating where you get the idea of suicide. I agree that there will be a certain number of people each year that may realize they don't have an interest in medicine, but they'll eventually find a specialty they can tolerate or go on and use their MD degree for something else other than clinically. Give me a specific source for a high suicide rate for medstudents that's due to them being 'trapped' or whatever. It's common sense, you don't need to find a study to prove that. I know of one student who was suicidal, dropped out in 4th year and became a teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown user 7 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I'm pretty sure every profession has people like those...I have no idea who to believe when it come to the, "yeah, but profession X has the highest suicide rate" phrase. Pretty sure I mentioned this already, but, everyone seems to say the above for meds, dents, law, and mba ppl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stefanci Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 so much for this profession being about passion and caring... why does money change one's mind...its not as if GPs are being paid peanuts... they still have way above average salaries......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_B Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 so much for this profession being about passion and caring... why does money change one's mind...its not as if GPs are being paid peanuts... they still have way above average salaries......... Bah, such an idealist point of view. Money matters. Every attending I have spoken to says that of course you want to help people, but we work to hard not to want some compensation. Especially when when you get called at 3am, or when you deal with someone who has a cold for the 1000th time. Passion and caring doesn't last forever, and it is important to recognize that no matter how much you may love your job, it is still just that, a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 I agree with The_B, people want to be rewarded for the work they do. If FP were compensated more, then more people would want to enter that specialty. I'm speaking in highly general terms here, but if you're going to be working the hours, then why would people settle for less pay? Providing medical students increased monetary incentive to practice family medicine would probably help make it more appealing. It's absolutely naive to assume that money is not important. Not only do I think it's naive, but I think it's dangerous for people to be so caught up in the idealistic attributes of medicine that they completely neglect the reality of medicine. Doing so will eventually result in a very rude, unwelcome awakening in the future. Leviathan brings up many good points in this thread. Some people are not completely aware of what they are getting themselves into by having ambitions for a medical career. Thankfully, there are some checkpoints in the medical admission process that may weed some of these people out. Anyway, this thread is not entitled "why medicine," but this topic has been discussed numerous times in other threads (for those interested). As The_B mentions, of course you want to help people. Hopefully this is one of your driving ambitions - everyone wants that physician who works his or her heart out for his or her patients. This does not mean that you should not be interested in the fiscal realities of medicine; we are, after all, a capitalist society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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