Will Research profs understand that we need money?

[lostintime]

I'm not trying to be greedy, but I just can't understand some of the stipends research summer students are getting paid. I just talked to a prof and she's suggesting for me to look for this award that pays like $7.25/hour if I do the math based on its requirements (3 months, full time = 40 h/ week).

 

Okay, the last time I checked, the minimum wage was $8/h. So we're expected to be paid less than minimum?

 

And this award is asking me to submit 2 reference letters, etc.

 

She didn't mention upping the award if I get it.

 

I don't know...is it greedy to ask for this? I know that I should be looking at the bigger picture, but I mean, it's still a job, and I'm not slacking, but still contributing to something. So why is it that I have to be paid less than minimum wage?

 

Will they get offended if I ask for something more? I just feel uncomfortable with so much debt and now losing the opportunity to take on a job that could pay like $15/h just because I want to get some med-related research experience.

 

I don't NEED it, but I want to do it, but I just don't feel that it's fair why research students just get dumped into this "If you like it, you wouldn't be doing it for the money". The fact is, everyone needs money, whether you like your job or not.

 

*sighs*

[abcwxyz]

Market economics. That's the going rate for summer studentships.

[Jochi1543]

It sucks, but such is life as a grad student, as well. When I was considering an MSc, I was told to expect 18 grand in the first year and 20 in the second *if* the extra funds were available. Out of that, I was supposed to pay about $6000 tuition the first year and $2000 in the second. Plus I was explicitly told to expect to work up to 60 hours a week on a regular basis and was told that "students who work part-time outside of the lab are unable to produce research that is up to my standards."

 

 

So yeah, one of the reasons I said "**** this MSc ****."

 

 

However, do your research. This summer, I signed a 6-week research contract that paid me $500 a week. The prof ended up making me work an average of 60 hours a week, and it was either hard physical labor under ridiculous conditions or the worst lab work you could imagine (sorting half-digested insects under a microscope for 8 hours a day straight). Then I found that another university offered an identical job paid HOURLY, at $15/hr. If I had worked the same hours at the other job, I would have made double in the same time span.

 

If you look hard enough, you will probably find a better-paying and very similar job elsewhere.

[lostintime]

Yikes...I guess I really should, but it just sucks when we get treated as second class citizens. Yes I understand you should be in research not for the money blah blah, but there is a difference between being GREEDY about money and getting what a normal employee deserves.

 

The only counter argument they have is "You are learning something, the cashier at Walmart isn't."

Hardly a great argument...and they wonder why so many people are turned off from research.

[abcwxyz]

Yikes...I guess I really should, but it just sucks when we get treated as second class citizens. Yes I understand you should be in research not for the money blah blah, but there is a difference between being GREEDY about money and getting what a normal employee deserves.

 

The only counter argument they have is "You are learning something, the cashier at Walmart isn't."

Hardly a great argument...and they wonder why so many people are turned off from research.

 

The counterargument is that you are not producing valuable output while the employee at walmart is.

 

For the most part, undergraduate student research is a subsidized learning experience. The value of said work to your professor is questionable; a lab tech could do much better quality work if he/she was willing to pay for one.

 

In a masters: the value of what you are producing is not "zero", but it certainly isn't worth 45,000 a year. Again, it's a government/university/department/lab subsidy of your education.

 

Note: It's difficult to measure research productivity economically but I still think my judgments are fair. A lab tech guided by the professor is certainly much more productive.

[MedPen]

Unless you have worked in a lab before and come fully trained with skills relevant to the project or have published something, you are in no position to demand anything. It sucks but that is how it works in academic research labs.

 

My advice is to suck it up: do the job for the money they are offering. Do a great job, learn everything you can, and don't complain. Then, once you have the skills and the experience necessary, the next time you are applying for a research position, you are free to negotiate your terms as you have something they value: training and experience.

[1234]

my friend gets 35k/year for his masters

[abcwxyz]

my friend gets 35k/year for his masters

 

Yes because he has won a NSERC or other award. Someone has judged that he is doing something worthwhile.

 

Very different scenario from UG student research or any old masters.

[Dilly]

my friend gets 35k/year for his masters

 

How does he get that much for masters? Or are you counting in supplemental income like TA?

[Laika]

How does he get that much for masters? Or are you counting in supplemental income like TA?

 

NSERC and CIHR have scholarships for that much. If you TA as well, you could make even more.

[daryn]

And I just want to point out that the stipend itself is alllll tax free.

 

Damn it was good to be in grad school.

[MedPen]

A friend of mine had a 35 000$ NSERC scholarship for her PhD. She had amazing credentials though.

 

I've never heard of a 35 000$ MSc scholarship. The CIHR one is 21 000$ plus 1 000$ for expenses and I think the NSERC one is comparable. 35 000$ seems really high for a MSc.

[zen_doc]

Universities will sometimes supplement the CIHR/NSERC scholarship. If you include the salary from TA-ing, you can make close to $35000 in a MSc program.

[A-Stark]

Yeah, I know Waterloo adds 10k onto the stipends of students who receive a "major award". Add in some TA money and I can definitely believe those numbers.

[MedPen]

Yeah, I know Waterloo adds 10k onto the stipends of students who receive a "major award". Add in some TA money and I can definitely believe those numbers.

 

Wow! A 10k bonus is really nice.

[Devari]

I'm not trying to be greedy, but I just can't understand some of the stipends research summer students are getting paid. I just talked to a prof and she's suggesting for me to look for this award that pays like $7.25/hour if I do the math based on its requirements (3 months, full time = 40 h/ week).

 

Okay, the last time I checked, the minimum wage was $8/h. So we're expected to be paid less than minimum?

 

And this award is asking me to submit 2 reference letters, etc.

 

She didn't mention upping the award if I get it.

 

I don't know...is it greedy to ask for this? I know that I should be looking at the bigger picture, but I mean, it's still a job, and I'm not slacking, but still contributing to something. So why is it that I have to be paid less than minimum wage?

 

Will they get offended if I ask for something more? I just feel uncomfortable with so much debt and now losing the opportunity to take on a job that could pay like $15/h just because I want to get some med-related research experience.

 

I don't NEED it, but I want to do it, but I just don't feel that it's fair why research students just get dumped into this "If you like it, you wouldn't be doing it for the money". The fact is, everyone needs money, whether you like your job or not.

 

*sighs*

 

First, the work that most summer students do, particularly if they're pre-meds, is essentially worthless. This arises from a combination of having zero interest in research, no experience and being insufficiently motivated to do proper work. It takes a graduate student literally twice as long to teach someone a technique than to do it themselves. If they're lucky the summer student can do it without making any major mistakes after being shown another 3-4 times. And even then it's not high quality work. The summer student's lack of experience means that most tasks have to be double-checked or redone and any problems that arise need to be solved by the graduate student. Combine this with the 9-5 schedule and you have a situation where a summer student often can't even carry out a complete experiment and needs to have others do much of the work for them. If the summer student makes major mistakes or does sloppy work then it can literally waste months of the gradaute student's time. So over a 3-4 month period the summer student can end up consuming large amounts of other people's time without actually accomplishing anything worthwhile. Essentially you're providing unskilled labor (since you don't have a degree or any practical experience yet) and are consuming large amounts of valuable time, resources, and money that could be better spent on anything other than yourself. So really, the fact that you're getting paid at all is a little amusing since in many respects you will be a drain on the lab's resources.

 

Second, do you have any idea how much some gradaute students work? We're talking upwards of 80 hours per week in many cases, with a stipend that is lower than what a summer student recieves. So if there was any extra money around a prof would do better hiring another graduate student. They work twice as hard, doing high quality work, for less pay.

 

Third, why are you even considering research in the first place? Are you trying to gain laboratory experience due to a genuine interest in research? If so, then the difference between $8/hour and $12/hour is irrelevant. If not, i.e., if you're just looking for another item to list on your med school application, then see my first point above.

 

Fourth, why would you expect to make good money working as a summer student in the first place? If anyone ever told you that scientific research was a good way to make money, and you believed them, this tells me that you should probably gain a better understanding of how research works.

 

After having 90% of the summer students I've trained turn out to be a complete waste of my time I have a very low opinion of pre-meds who start summer research positions with no actual interest in research. The closest comparison I can think of to your suggestion that summer students should be paid more would be like me paying higher taxes so that the city can move a bus stop further from my apartment.

[Alastriss]

First, the work that most summer students do, particularly if they're pre-meds, is essentially worthless. This arises from a combination of having zero interest in research, no experience and being insufficiently motivated to do proper work. It takes a graduate student literally twice as long to teach someone a technique than to do it themselves. If they're lucky the summer student can do it without making any major mistakes after being shown another 3-4 times. And even then it's not high quality work. The summer student's lack of experience means that most tasks have to be double-checked or redone and any problems that arise need to be solved by the graduate student. Combine this with the 9-5 schedule and you have a situation where a summer student often can't even carry out a complete experiment and needs to have others do much of the work for them. If the summer student makes major mistakes or does sloppy work then it can literally waste months of the gradaute student's time. So over a 3-4 month period the summer student can end up consuming large amounts of other people's time without actually accomplishing anything worthwhile. Essentially you're providing unskilled labor (since you don't have a degree or any practical experience yet) and are consuming large amounts of valuable time, resources, and money that could be better spent on anything other than yourself. So really, the fact that you're getting paid at all is a little amusing since in many respects you will be a drain on the lab's resources.

 

Second, do you have any idea how much some gradaute students work? We're talking upwards of 80 hours per week in many cases, with a stipend that is lower than what a summer student recieves. So if there was any extra money around a prof would do better hiring another graduate student. They work twice as hard, doing high quality work, for less pay.

 

Third, why are you even considering research in the first place? Are you trying to gain laboratory experience due to a genuine interest in research? If so, then the difference between $8/hour and $12/hour is irrelevant. If not, i.e., if you're just looking for another item to list on your med school application, then see my first point above.

 

Fourth, why would you expect to make good money working as a summer student in the first place? If anyone ever told you that scientific research was a good way to make money, and you believed them, this tells me that you should probably gain a better understanding of how research works.

 

After having 90% of the summer students I've trained turn out to be a complete waste of my time I have a very low opinion of pre-meds who start summer research positions with no actual interest in research. The closest comparison I can think of to your suggestion that summer students should be paid more would be like me paying higher taxes so that the city can move a bus stop further from my apartment.

 

Devari your post was pretty harsh, even though I agree with it. Well from my experience summer students can be a drain but many can be very helpful. Most of the recruiters bring them in to introduce student to research and potentially recruit graduate students which can hit the ground running when they officially begin the MSc, so there is more than just putting hours in to get labour product out.

 

Secondly, Lostintime is a med student, so much of what you said, while true, doesn't really apply to him since he is not a whiny premed asking for more money. Genuine interest is important and all, but with a med school tuition debt you STILL need realism and practicality (and money).

[Devari]

Devari your post was pretty harsh, even though I agree with it. Well from my experience summer students can be a drain but many can be very helpful. Most of the recruiters bring them in to introduce student to research and potentially recruit graduate students which can hit the ground running when they officially begin the MSc, so there is more than just putting hours in to get labour product out.

 

Secondly, Lostintime is a med student, so much of what you said, while true, doesn't really apply to him since he is not a whiny premed asking for more money. Genuine interest is important and all, but with a med school tuition debt you STILL need realism and practicality (and money).

 

My post may have sounded harsh but he seemed to be under the impression that the work he was doing was somehow valuable to the lab when the reality is exactly the opposite. If he wants to be paid what he's worth as a summer student he'd be making absolutely nothing. In fact, he'd probably be paying the lab for the privilege of working there and consuming the graduate student's time. I have trained the rare summer student who was very interested and diligent, and in those cases I have enjoyed working with them, but even then it took large amounts of time away from my own work. In the vast majority of cases they are a major a drain on the graduate student's time and the summer student is the only one who gains any benefit.

 

If he's a medical student then what he's suggesting may be even more ridiculous than I originally thought. If he doesn't have an appropriate undergraduate background to carry out laboratory research then he would be even more useless in a laboratory than a typical summer student who has at least taken a few years of science undergrad. Medical school doesn't provide any of the background or training necessary to carry out scientific research so unless he has a strong undergraduate background he will be no better (possibly worse) than the summer students I've worked with.

 

Regarding the point about trying to earn money as a medical student, the entire concept isn't really relevant. Time is far too valuable in medical school to waste on trying to earn $12/hour. It's just not worthwhile.

 

Also, medical students will often spend time shadowing doctors or doing other activities just to gain experience in a field they're interested in. A medical student has no skills that anyone will pay them for because they are still being trained. Medical students aren't qualified to do anything other than learn, and no one's going to pay you for that. Unless he has some marketable skills in some other field then he simply shouldn't expect to be making money as a medical student. It sounds like he has no genuine interest in research if he's complaining about the money, so if he's a medical student he's probably just trying to put another item on his resume for the residency matching, which is exactly the same problem with pre-meds doing research just for applying to medical school. If he gets an opportunity to gain some research experience and make $8/hour at the same time I can't imagine why he would feel that he should be entitled to anything more than this.

[lostintime]

*clapclapclap* I love the many many assumptions in Devari's post. Just love it.

 

This is what happens when people think they've got everything all figured out. The funniest part is the irony in all of it.

 

I don't realy take any of it personally really, but I just think that despite this being a forum, people should really practice the form in which they are trying to get their viewpoints across, regardless of what you are--a premed, grad student, med student, doctor, regular person, who cares....It'll make your life AND everyone else that you interact w/ a lot easier.

 

I am not going to make any assumptions about Devari because frankly it's just a username to me, and I have no idea.

 

But this individual's VIEWPOINT basically screams the stereotypical bitter grad student and I've seen many of them. Because if I'm going to be labeled as the stereotypical premed, then I'll say a point or two about the stereotypical grad student.

 

Annoying premeds who hate research? I've seen plenty in my time. Premeds who don't care at all and just want to study MCAT? Sure. All valid points.

 

But don't give me the load about how all grad students work hard and that they're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>. than undergrads. Because until you've actually seen hard-working undergrads who work their ASS off and work up into the wee hours for their projects, don't assume you can label every single premed student.

 

I don't have an issue with grad students being busy, but what I do have an issue with is the disgusting perpetual cycle that if I suffered in the past, I have to instill my bitterness onto other students. Does everyone not have to start SOMEWHERE in life, whether it's their first research job or whatever?

 

I think it's utterly sad that some students have to face bitter lab techs/post-docs/grad students who could care LESS about them and they are taught either inappropriately, treated like dirt, or given all the dirty work while the grad student, etc. gets all the glory. Perhaps it's about "moving up the food chain" idea? Sure, but honestly, I've been and seen both situations before, and the people who really tried to make an effort to not let me start off on a bad foot in research I will thank forever. Because honestly, you have to be a pretty crummy individual to try and ruin someone's initial experience in the field like that. Initiative is important, but it can only take one so far when you're muddling in ugly lab politics and struggles.

 

Shadowing, yeah, I totally agree, you are benefiting yourself 100% therefore no money should be awarded.

 

But honestly, people have to be KIDDING themselves when they think every single job out there in the market deserves the pay they are offering. Don't try to equate the principle by thinking that everything is economic value for pay because it is not. There's jobs out there where there are some USELESS people earning > $20/hour and wasting the company/government's resources. I know of a bunch and I'm sure there's way more out there.

 

The point I'm making is that things need to EVOLVE. Yes, who doesn't know about economic value. There is some truth to it and I agree.

 

But why were summer studentships created in the first place? To encourage research.

 

Sure, there's the argument of --if you love research, you should go all out for it. But that only takes you so far when you are deep in debt.

 

There should be more encouragement financially or else people just aren't gonna do it. Because realistically, people can argue all they want, but at the end of the day, many people are not going to be willing to take the pay cut for research.

 

I AM taking this huge pay cut when there are a BUNCH OF jobs out there that I can earn close to $20/h doing, but I am not applying to them because I do want to do research. And I can tell you that I certainly do NOT have 1.5x the "value" and skills for those jobs or doing so much more for them, yet I am being paid so much. Interesting how the world works.

[Devari]

*clapclapclap* I love the many many assumptions in Devari's post. Just love it.

 

Actually, there weren't any assumptions other than the implication that you're likely a pre-med. Everything else I've mentioned comes directly from my own experiences.

 

I am not going to make any assumptions about Devari because frankly it's just a username to me, and I have no idea.

 

OK, sounds good.

 

But this individual's VIEWPOINT basically screams the stereotypical bitter grad student and I've seen many of them.

 

Wait, I thought you weren't making any assumptions?

 

Because if I'm going to be labeled as the stereotypical premed, then I'll say a point or two about the stereotypical grad student.

 

My comments about summer students weren't stereotypes, they're based on exactly what I've observed.

 

Since you appear to have zero research experience I'm wondering where you're getting your informaton about graduate students?

 

But don't give me the load about how all grad students work hard and that they're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>. than undergrads. Because until you've actually seen hard-working undergrads who work their ASS off and work up into the wee hours for their projects, don't assume you can label every single premed student.

 

Actually, I wasn't labelling every single summer student. Notice in my posts I was referring to the vast majority of summer students and also pointed out that I have occasionally encountered an interested and diligent summer student. In the vast majority of cases, however, my comments are entirely accurate.

 

I don't have an issue with grad students being busy, but what I do have an issue with is the disgusting perpetual cycle that if I suffered in the past, I have to instill my bitterness onto other students. Does everyone not have to start SOMEWHERE in life, whether it's their first research job or whatever?

 

So you're suggesting that I don't think summer students should make more money because I'm bitter and want them to suffer? Did you read anything I posted? Most summer students consume graduate students' time, consume laboratory resources, have zero interest in research and are simply looking for something to put on their resume. Those aren't sufficient reasons to suggest that summer students shouldn't be getting more money?

 

I AM taking this huge pay cut when there are a BUNCH OF jobs out there that I can earn close to $20/h doing, but I am not applying to them because I do want to do research. And I can tell you that I certainly do NOT have 1.5x the "value" and skills for those jobs or doing so much more for them, yet I am being paid so much. Interesting how the world works.

 

Did you actually read anything I posted? Those other jobs are paying you for useful work. Summer students generally don't accomplish useful work because they require such a large investment of time just to learn basic techniques. The summer student is gaining the benefit of other people's time and experience and is accomplishing next to nothing in the laboratory. If you're still looking at it as a "job" instead of "research experience" then your attitude is exactly the same as the 90% of summer students I've seen who do substandard work. If you've actually read my posts and are still complaining about money then you clearly didn't understantd a single thing I said.

 

Many things could be improved in scientific research, including the length and structure of graduate programs, stipend support, post-doc salaries, laboratory funding, and so on. Paying summer students more isn't even on the list of ways to improve research because those summer students generally don't contribute in any meaninful way to the work that is done in the lab and also consume considerable time and resources.

 

If you want to make money over the summer, then work in a job that pays a good hourly wage such as in the construction industry.

 

If you want to learn something about scientific research and benefit from the years of training and experience that a graduate student or post-doc is willing to share with you, then consider working in a research lab. Just don't get confused and think that you're providing a valuable service to anyone and should somehow be paid well for it.

[lostintime]

And you obviously did not read what I had to say if you're going to make this into a drama and make it all about you. I already said that your viewpoint points out a certain type of ATTITUDE that I am viewing and this my subjective viewing. I too refer everything else to personal experience, except for the fact that I am certainly not implying everything is "THE ONE AND ONLY FACT" and that they are just my SUBJECTIVE views. I already said I was describing the idea of a bitter grad student, but you instead want to make it all about you. Whatever floats your boat.

 

Just by the fact that you believe what you are saying is "true" when they are in fact "opinions" shows that you have low tolerance for expanding your horizons to look beyond your own opinions.

 

If you know a thing or two about summer studentships (minus all the assumptions of my background which I do not feel is relevant to this discussion because it's not a gong show and let's list my CV time), you'll know that often students with YEARS of epxerience and WAY more "value" to the lab get paid the same and get the same studentship as the 2nd year 4.0 students who have zippo experience. And we all know that 4.0 does not necessarily equal excellent lab skills and sudden great "value".

 

So although you love to repeat yourself over and over about the "value' and "service" and "return" to the lab, the truth is that for the SAME amount of pay, you can have VASTLY different amounts of returns to the same lab because of the way in which summer studentships are designed.

 

Basically, I do agree with some of your points, but I was just pointing out a different look at the issue by starting the thread. I don't mind debating at all, in fact I really enjoy debating. I just have an issue with personal attacks.

[Devari]

Just by the fact that you believe what you are saying is "true" when they are in fact "opinions" shows that you have low tolerance for expanding your horizons to look beyond your own opinions.

 

Sorry, but I've clearly explained why summer students shouldn't be making more money. I've also explained why making money isn't a relevant issue for someone who is truly interested in gaining lab experience. If you don't understand the points I've made because you don't understand the work done in research labs, that's not my problem. Your lack of understanding doesn't equal a valid argument.

 

So although you love to repeat yourself over and over about the "value' and "service" and "return" to the lab, the truth is that for the SAME amount of pay, you can have VASTLY different amounts of returns to the same lab because of the way in which summer studentships are designed.

 

Again, you still seem to be focusing on "pay" as if you're providing some type of useful work to the lab. How many ways do I need to explain that it's the summer student, not the lab, that is benefiting here? The fact that you get any pay at all is a bonus. The salary you receive certainly isn't a reflection of your value to the lab, which is typically zero or usually less than zero (due to consuming time and resources).

 

I'm trying to explain how summer students work in the lab, and why they shouldn't get more money, and you just aren't getting it.

 

In addition to the time it takes to train a summer student and the lack of useful work, there are also other problems that affect the lab.

 

I've seen summer students:

1. Contaminate buffers and cause other students' experiments to fail for months before the problem was worked out.

2. Have difficulty closing a freezer door and instead of asking someone for help they simply walked away, potentially destroying literally decades of work.

3. Repeatedly leave an expensive UV lamp on overnight, for no apparent reason other than sheer sloppiness.

4. Imbalance centrifuge rotors and potentially cause serious damage and/or injury.

5. Spill toxic and/or carcinogenic chemicals, again through sheer sloppiness.

6. Fail to follow simple instructions, losing days of work in the process.

 

None of these summer students had any interest in research. They just didn't care, and it showed in their work and their respect for the others working in the lab. It wasn't even a problem with training or ability, because they were all shown how to do the work properly. It was a problem with the students and their motivations for working in the lab. They saw it as a "job" where they showed up, went thorough the motions and put another item on their resume.

 

You can pretend that you're providing some type of useful service to the lab, but the reality is that you're not. If you can't understand this concept and think you somehow "deserve" higher pay there's not much more I can say to explain this.

[lostintime]

Fine, how do you justify "little useless premeds" who actually get their names on papers as first authors? Yes, BEFORE the grad student (and let's forget those insider connection cases). Because they are useless right? Because the prof is too blind?

 

The point is that you are NARROW TUNNELING yourself by drawing this huge conclusion that is not fair to the people who are working their asses off and the people who ARE making a contribution to a lab.

 

It's not about premed/undergrad vs. research-oriented/grad. Some premeds can be MORE capable than grad students AND perform better results = USEFUL (read *USEFUL* = publishable data) for the lab than grad students.

 

Just because you get into a grad program doesn't automatically make you a superior researcher. Most of NSERC awards are based on GPA anyway.

 

I'm not saying those students don't exist. But you are playing too much emphasis on them when in fact, the truth is that most students probably lie somewhere in between.

 

With this attitude, you are not showing respect to students who haven't had experience and not providing them with a good learning environment because you show such bias.

 

And just to be the devil's advocate, I know of many med students who were accepted into grad programs but decided to do med. How are they LESS competent than the 1st year grad student considering they also have their B.Sc?

 

Premed merely means you want to get into med (I don't even like this term), but writing everyone off (even if you claim it's something like 99% *cough politically correct* yes I know you didn't mention specific stats *cough*), but what you are doing is just not seeing the bigger picture.

[Laika]

I've seen summer students:

1. Contaminate buffers and cause other students' experiments to fail for months before the problem was worked out.

2. Have difficulty closing a freezer door and instead of asking someone for help they simply walked away, potentially destroying literally decades of work.

3. Repeatedly leave an expensive UV lamp on overnight, for no apparent reason other than sheer sloppiness.

4. Imbalance centrifuge rotors and potentially cause serious damage and/or injury.

5. Spill toxic and/or carcinogenic chemicals, again through sheer sloppiness.

6. Fail to follow simple instructions, losing days of work in the process.

 

I've seen grad students do some of those things... and worse!

[Devari]

Sorry lostintime, but coming up with random, hypothetical examples like "What if a summer student gets their name on a paper?" or "What if a summer student has a high GPA?" are completely irrelevant. I'm referring to the vast majority of summer students that I've worked with and have seen in other labs. I've already stated that there are occasionally interested and motivated students, so when you keep suggesting that I'm referring to every single summer student that tells me you haven't been reading my posts carefully.

 

Your posts keep referring to the "sacrifice" you think you're making by working for $8/hour in a lab. I've tried to explain that you will be getting far more out of the experience than the lab will. You still don't seem to understand that what you're doing in the lab will have basically zero benefit to the lab but will consume considerable training, time and resources.

 

You also don't seem to understand how limited research budgets are. Many labs work on a very limited budget and can barely afford to pay graduate student stipends, purchase lab supplies and replace broken equipment. Every three years or so the grant needs to be renewed, so there is a constant issue with ensuring that the lab has enough money to operate. The idea of a summer student asking for more money is simply ridiculous.

 

If I was running a lab and a summer student showed up and asked me for more money, I'd probably laugh so hard I'd injure myself. There is absolutely no way I would considering investing the time, training and resources into a summer student who somehow though they should be making more money. I wouldn't want to train a student with that kind of attitude even if they volunteered to work for nothing because they would just waste the lab's resources.

 

You still don't seem to have any concept of how a research lab works. If you'd rather make $15/hour at some other job, no one is stopping you. But if you really want to gain research experience then don't turn around and complain about the money. There are fully trained scientists who have been in training for upwards of ten years and are still working for basic living expenses.