Will Research profs understand that we need money?

[lostintime]

If you've never seen an undergrad publish a paper, I don't know what kind of lab you've worked in or if you're just extremely in denial that every single grad students >>>>>> undergrads. "random" is really an insulting word to use.

 

I really don't have anything else to say for someone who has already set their opinion and refuses to face reality.

 

And you obviously don't know everything because I've personally seen students hired despite not getting a research award. And professors who have upped their students' pay. But of course, the prof must be stupid right? Becuase they should just laugh them out of the lab.

 

Whatever, you can think what you want. *rolls eyes* Just because you are repeating your points over and over doesn't make them more valid. I'm not even disputing/disagreeing with some of the things you are saying, but you are not answering my points. So yes, you can talk to yourself now.

[Devari]

I've seen grad students do some of those things... and worse!

 

I've seen grad students do some stupid things as well, but it's nothing like the problems I've seen with summer students. My main issue isn't even the mistakes themselves, since anyone can make a mistake. It's really the attitude and sloppiness. If a grad student makes a mistake its their work and their thesis that suffers, and they're ultimately responsible. If a summer student makes a mistake the prof running the lab often doesn't even see these things, so its up to the graduate students to try to minimize the damage that gets done. The summer student still lists the "research experience" on their resume and in many cases they couldn't care less that they've disrupted the work of everyone else working in the lab.

 

Another amusing tendency I’ve noticed is when a summer student tries to show their “independence” by running a protocol or piece of equipment that they haven’t been trained for and thinking that they’re going to “impress” the prof. It would actually be funny if it wasn’t such a massive waste of other people’s time.

[Devari]

If you've never seen an undergrad publish a paper, I don't know what kind of lab you've worked in or if you're just extremely in denial that every single grad students >>>>>> undergrads. "random" is really an insulting word to use.

 

I really don't have anything else to say for someone who has already set their opinion and refuses to face reality.

 

I have seen undergraduate students get their names on a paper, and in the vast majority of cases they contribute a few months of work to a project that has already been started, developed and nearly completed. The prof gives them a very focused, risk-free task and they get their name on the paper. They don't do it by being exceptional students, they do it by being in the right place at the right time.

 

You clearly have no idea how long it takes to actually develop a research project. Anyone can contribute to an established project but it takes literally years of work to get the project started. Why do you think it takes upwards of 3-4 years of continuous work to get a masters degree or upwards of 6-7 years for a Ph.D.? A typical thesis takes years and years of work and sometimes results in only a single paper. It simply isn't physically possible for a summer student to accomplish enough work for a paper in 3-4 months. If they get their name on a paper that's due to the prof, not the student.

 

And you obviously don't know everything because I've personally seen students hired despite not getting a research award. And professors who have upped their students' pay. But of course, the prof must be stupid right? Becuase they should just laugh them out of the lab.

 

When did I ever say that a summer student is only hired if they have a research award? You were talking about asking for more pay because you didn't think the research award was paying you enough. Asking for more money is a completely different situation from a professor who chooses to hire a student using lab funding or chooses to give a student an increase in pay.

 

Whatever, you can think what you want. *rolls eyes* Just because you are repeating your points over and over doesn't make them more valid. I'm not even disputing/disagreeing with some of the things you are saying, but you are not answering my points. So yes, you can talk to yourself now.

 

You still don't seem to be reading my posts and haven't demonstrated any understanding of what I've been saying. You seemed to start this thread expecting to have other people feel sorry for the low pay you would be "enduring" as a summer student and you don't appear to have any understanding of the role summer students actually play in a lab.

[lostintime]

I have seen undergraduate students get their names on a paper, and in the vast majority of cases they contribute a few months of work to a project that has already been started, developed and nearly completed. The prof gives them a very focused, risk-free task and they get their name on the paper. They don't do it by being exceptional students, they do it by being in the right place at the right time.

 

You clearly have no idea how long it takes to actually develop a research project. Anyone can contribute to an established project but it takes literally years of work to get the project started. Why do you think it takes upwards of 3-4 years of continuous work to get a masters degree or upwards of 6-7 years for a Ph.D.? A typical thesis takes years and years of work and sometimes results in only a single paper. It simply isn't physically possible for a summer student to accomplish enough work for a paper in 3-4 months. If they get their name on a paper's that's due to the prof, not the student.

 

 

 

When did I ever say that a summer student is only hired if they have a research award? You were talking about asking for more pay because you didn't think the research award was paying you enough. Asking for more money is a completely different situation from a professor who chooses to hire a student using lab funding or chooses to give a student an increase in pay.

 

 

 

You still don't seem to be reading my posts and haven't demonstrated any understanding of what I've been saying. You seemed to start this thread expecting to have other people feel sorry for the low pay you would be "enduring" as a summer student and you don't appear to have any understanding of the role summer students actually play in a lab.

 

Who said they have to get it in one summer? Some summer students come back, etc. You obviously have issues with typecasting premeds and summer students as one big lump of "inexperienced useless people". Guess what, there's more cases than just the few you've seen. There are grad students who only publish like ONE paper out of their entire thing. Sometimes luck comes to play too, plus a good eye for things.

 

And how do you think they got more funding? By asking duh. Seriously your logic is very amusing.

 

Don't even get me started on your understanding. I think what you want to say instead is "You don't seem to agree with me. I won't listen to what you have to say until you tell me that everything I am saying is the absolute truth."

[Devari]

Who said they have to get it in one summer? Some summer students come back, etc. You obviously have issues with typecasting premeds and summer students as one big lump of "inexperienced useless people". Guess what, there's more cases than just the few you've seen. There are grad students who only publish like ONE paper out of their entire thing. Sometimes luck comes to play too, plus a good eye for things.

 

And how do you think they got more funding? By asking duh. Seriously your logic is very amusing.

 

Don't even get me started on your understanding. I think what you want to say instead is "You don't seem to agree with me. I won't listen to what you have to say until you tell me that everything I am saying is the absolute truth."

 

Sorry, but you simply have a completely inaccurate concept of what summer students accomplish in most laboratories. If anyone in a lab deserves more pay it would be the graduate students, followed by the post docs and lab technicians. It definitely isn't the summer students.

[lostintime]

Lmao, when did I say summer students deserve it MORE than the people you mentioned? Everyone could take a pay hike in research.

[Devari]

You've been suggesting that you would be making some sort of "sacrifice" by working for $8/hour as a summer student and somehow deserve more pay. I've been explaining that you're lucky to get any pay in the first place. Summer students are not "undervalued" in any way, in fact, a summer student should consider themselves lucky to have the opportunity to learn from highly trained individuals who take time away from their own work to train them.

 

Graduate students, post docs and technicians, on the other hand, are undervalued. They also need to live off of their stipend or salary and often barely have enough to meet living expenses.

 

That's the difference here. You're whining about a summer job where you consume resources and don't actually produce anything useful in most cases. That's not the same situation as a graduate student, post doc or lab technician who relies on their research for their career, works long hours and actually does deserve more pay.

[lostintime]

I AM making a sacrifice. I did not say THAT in itself warrants a pay increase.

 

The point is that everyone has to START somewhere. Those highly trained people were once summer students themselves. Or else they wouldn't be able to get to where they are now. It's called feeding the cycle so it can keep going and we can keep producing budding researchers.

 

Graduate stuents are still students. What's the big difference there? They don't really "deserve" it more by that logic.

 

Whatever, if you want to keep talking about "value", then some post-docs work in obsolete fields not useful for economy/health/whatever. They don't deserve to be paid at all I suppose. Yet they still complain and rightfully so.

 

And what--grad students ALWAYS produce useful things? Right....

 

All I was saying is that I would hope the entire system to take revamp, not that I think summer students are superior beings. But of course someone has to turn it into this.

[Devari]

I AM making a sacrifice. I did not say THAT in itself warrants a pay increase.

 

No, you are not making a sacrifice, in any way. The benefit of working in a research lab is the training and experience that you receive. If that isn't worthwhile to you then don't work in a lab. You can't have it both ways. You want to put "research experience" on your resume but you also want to get paid lots of money to work in a position where you have no skills or experience and consume large amounts of other peoples time and resources?

 

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

 

The point is that everyone has to START somewhere. Those highly trained people were once summer students themselves. Or else they wouldn't be able to get to where they are now. It's called feeding the cycle so it can keep going and we can keep producing budding researchers.

 

Graduate stuents are still students. What's the big difference there? They don't really "deserve" it more by that logic.

 

Whatever, if you want to keep talking about "value", then some post-docs work in obsolete fields not useful for economy/health/whatever. They don't deserve to be paid at all I suppose. Yet they still complain and rightfully so.

 

And what--grad students ALWAYS produce useful things? Right....

 

All I was saying is that I would hope the entire system to take revamp, not that I think summer students are superior beings. But of course someone has to turn it into this.

 

The difference is that most summer students have zero interest in research. Of the many students I've seen come through our lab only one had an interest in research as a career. The rest were doing it simply to put it on their resume. There's no "cycle" here where the summer students are eventually going to contribute to the lab.

 

That's the problem with what you're suggesting. You're helping yourself and your own career goals, and that has absolutely nothing to do with helping the lab.

[lostintime]

Why can't you get your head out of the "all summer students = 2nd year students without any reserach experience"? For your information, I hardly required more than 1 hour of "collaboration" per WEEK during my last research project. Yes your argument is valid for 2nd year students with NO experience, but not for ALL summer students. And some people learn faster than others. Some of the stuff is very repetitive and really not that difficult to learn. That's up to the prof to pick an appropriate project for the summer student at their level. If they don't have one, then don't accept if a student if it's so "resource-sucking" as you supposedly say it is.

 

And just because someone isn't going to do a Ph.D. doesn't mean they won't ever contribute to research. Sometimes one's initial experience with research says a lot for them. Not EVERYONE just wants it on their CV.

 

If you really think that people ONLY do it for the CV even at the med school/graduate school level, you're delusional. It's simply not worth it. Just like med school isn't worth it if you're just in it for the money.

 

What is completely unethical is when profs use research students as lab techs and make them do stuff where they don't get any learning when in fact the funding for studentships is meant for that type of envrionment.

 

It's not the student's fault there's systems set up for these type of things. If the prof doesn't like it, if the lab is too poor, then don't hire. It goes both ways.

 

And just based on what you've written, I'm certainly VERY VERY skeptical about your subjectivity in judging these students. It's just your opinion, who knew what their true interest was. Just because devari says so, that's true? Okay then.

[Devari]

Why can't you get your head out of the "all summer students = 2nd year students without any reserach experience"? For your information, I hardly required more than 1 hour of "collaboration" per WEEK during my last research project. Yes your argument is valid for 2nd year students with NO experience, but not for ALL summer students. And some people learn faster than others. Some of the stuff is very repetitive and really not that difficult to learn. That's up to the prof to pick an appropriate project for the summer student at their level. If they don't have one, then don't accept if a student if it's so "resource-sucking" as you supposedly say it is.

 

And just because someone isn't going to do a Ph.D. doesn't mean they won't ever contribute to research. Sometimes one's initial experience with research says a lot for them. Not EVERYONE just wants it on their CV.

 

If you really think that people ONLY do it for the CV even at the med school/graduate school level, you're delusional. It's simply not worth it. Just like med school isn't worth it if you're just in it for the money.

 

What is completely unethical is when profs use research students as lab techs and make them do stuff where they don't get any learning when in fact the funding for studentships is meant for that type of envrionment.

 

It's not the student's fault there's systems set up for these type of things. If the prof doesn't like it, if the lab is too poor, then don't hire. It goes both ways.

 

And just based on what you've written, I'm certainly VERY VERY skeptical about your subjectivity in judging these students. It's just your opinion, who knew what their true interest was. Just because devari says so, that's true? Okay then.

 

I really don't see where you're going with these random points. You keep trying to suggest that summer students are somehow underpaid, undervalued, and so on. No one is forcing you to do research. If you don't want to work in a lab, then don't work in a lab. You aren't "entitled" to more pay as a summer student. If you don't value the experience you're getting then you really shouldn't be working in a lab at all. I have zero sympathy for someone in your situation. In fact, your attitude does a better job of illustrating the problems I have with the motivations of summer students than any example I could provide.

 

Make your choices in life and accept the consequences. Work in a lab, or don't work in a lab. Just don't complain about why you think you deserve more than someone else, or tell everyone how hard your life is or why you're entitled to something you haven't earned. There are many people who actually do work in underpaid and undervalued jobs and I can sympathise with their situation. But a summer student working in a lab doesn't even register on the "feel sorry for me" spectrum. It's so ridiculous it's actually funny. I would have stopped posting in this thread long ago if it wasn't so amusing to see someone complain about how hard it is to work as a summer student. Working as a summer student in a research lab was the most enjoyable job I ever had because of the people I got to work with and the experience I gained. The absolute last thing you would have ever heard from me was a complaint about how much money I was making.

[lostintime]

No one is forcing people to go to school. Who cares if tuition is rising? Why do we care about anything? No one is forcing us. We should just all shut up and suck it up right. Because why should we ever voice anything in this world. We have the choice to just not do it.

 

Great arguments.

 

Thanks Einstein for stating the obvious. Geez I can work in a lab or I can not. If you hadn't posted that option, I really would never have known. I feel very enlightened.

 

Who in the world asked for your sympathy? You have a great talent for putting words in people's mouths. Just like you're asking for people to sympathize with your hardships as a grad student having to train someone who you were in the same boat not so long ago. Oh woe is me. Thank god I never had someone like that training me and ruining what should have been an educational and good experience.

 

Just because I think students are underpaid doesn't mean the expereince is not rewarding or bad. Who in the world says that you can't learn and make a contribution at the same time?

[Devari]

The difference is that I didn't start a thread titled "Graduate students are underpaid, why don't profs understand?"

 

I chose to go into graduate school because I wanted to be trained as a research scientist. I don't go around whining about it. Are there aspects of a research career that are very frustrating and difficult? Of course, but no one forced me to work in a lab.

 

I've tried explaining that summer students get the opportunity to learn from highly trained scientists and make some money at the same time, and have nothing to complain about. I've also explained how the majority of summer students don't actually contribute to the lab in any meaningful way. If you're just here to complain about something that most people view as an opportunity and want to act like its some kind of hardship instead, then you shouldn't expect to get a positive response.

[lostintime]

Right and because I start a thread, that means I am only asking for sympathy and not discussion on the topic. Notice how other people were able to voice what you are GENERALLY trying to say and I had no issues with it because it makes sense. But I have an issue with is your over-pompous attitude and narrow examples and highly opionated stereotypes of all summer students.

 

If other people are able to state their opinions in a civilized and thoughtful manner, why are you not? You are not "explaining", you are imposing and trying to force people to either accept your accusations word for word or write them off as "not understanding your arguments".

 

Then why are you whining about training summer students? That is also part of your job believe it or not. If you're going to set a no-"whining" record, then stick to it and don't whine at all. Don't be a hypocrite, that's all I'm saying.

 

Don't expect to come here with a rude and accusatory attitude, making a BUNCH of unfounded assumptions, and expect other people to be happy about it. I mean, what did you expect?

[Devari]

You started the thread with the idea that you were somehow entitled to something, in this case, more money for working as a summer student. You didn't seem to be interested in a discussion, you seemed to be interested in complaining.

[lostintime]

The key word is "seems". Thanks for the psychological analysis, unfortunately you're not 100% on spot and can't read minds. Play again please.

[Devari]

Actaully, I don't need to read minds here. Your subsequent posts clearly established that your only interest was to complain, since you keep making the ridiculous suggestion that you're somehow undervalued or underpaid as a summer student.

[lostintime]

I LOVE your logic. I have an opinion that differs from yours --> I am wrong (oh wait, I have a "ridiculous suggestion") --> I am complaining and not arguing in a debate --> that was my intention when I started the thread.

 

It is VERY logical. And there goes another spree of repeating lines x 10.

 

ANYWAY, I'm done with this. I feel like other people don't need to read this. If you want to argue more, PM me. Otherwise, I don't have anything else to add.

[Devari]

Well, this has definitely been a worthwhile thread. It looks like I've earned enough XP to reach the next level in World of Forumcraft. The thread also dropped a Katana of Pre-Med Slaying, which works well with the Armor of the Graduate Student I picked up recently. A few more threads like this one and I'll be able to complete that epic set of gear I've been collecting.

[Pool Rat]

Wouldn't it be easier for you guys to do this over MSN?

 

Also:

http://xkcd.com/386