dietary restrictions

[WaveSense]

damn... all this talk of meat got me all hungry

[Jochi1543]

I love p101.

 

 

 

I NEED to eat meat/chicken/fish daily. If I don't, I get antsy, I'm in a ****ty mood, and I remain hungry no matter how much I eat. I also get major cravings for steak and stuff if I go 2-3 days without some sort of meat. I think a big part of it has to do with working out and maintaining/gaining muscle. I remember going through a stage where I ate 3-4 steaks a day and hardly anything else when I was training for a boxing match. When I don't work out (like right now, I'm basically a sedentary blob these days thanks to EMS), I have fewer cravings.

 

 

And now, after I posted this, I have the urge to fry up all 3 fish steaks I have and devour them...and I will do just that. :D

[spiderpig]

Basically what I am trying to say is that if you are a vegetarian, than don't much up some junk about it being healthier than eating meat, or something. It's a personal choice, own up and accept the fact that some people might not like your choice. At least the gays and lesbians can stand up and say "I made a life choice, so what?" They don't try to parade that being homosexual is more healthy or less wrong.

 

again aside from that my points are:

 

-There is nothing wrong with killing animals for consumption, animals eat animals all the time. We have evolved to be omnivores, that is what nature determined.

 

- As long as you take care of yourself and look after your diet, there is no significant health benefit to not eating meat.

 

Rmorlean, I understand your intentions. I think my reaction, mostly stems from the small but vocal number of vegetarians that live in my city who try to idealize vegetarianism, and tout it as the healthy diet.

 

Spiderpig. Thank you for saying that you don't think eating meat is unethical, I hope I have clarified my point on what irks me when vegetarians try to defend their decision with junk that really isn't true.

 

If you don't mind me actually asking, you said that being an omnivore isn't unethical, but that you don't eat meat for ethical reasons. What exactly is your reasoning?

 

 

To answer your question, based on my personal and moral convictions, I don't think it is right for me to eat animals. I know that I can live a perfectly healthy life without having to harm them. That is the benefit of being an omnivore. Of course carnivorous animals don't have the same choice. That is why I included ethical as a reason... It can't be too difficult to understand why someone wouldn't want to kill an animal if they didn't need to.

 

I also said later that I don't think non-vegetarians are behaving unethically, because, as you said, it is natural for them to eat meat. I think it's important to recognize that there is a dichotomy, where people can believe either side, and be equally right.

 

I still don't think it's right for you (not just you Wolvenstar) to hold a double standard for vegetarians, in regards to their claims that it's a healther lifestyle. There are plenty of non-vegetarians who go around saying that they are leading the healthier lifestyle. I can understand that the vegetarians that you may have met tell you that you're wrong in what you're doing... but for me, it's the opposite. I'm always put in a position where I have to justify my vegetarianism. That's why I get uncomfortable, and I never try to give just *one* reason for my choice when people ask.

 

Since we're in this whole discussion, maybe someone can give me insight into something that I find curious. What's really astonishing to me is that people are more satisfied if I simply say that it's only for cultural or religious reasons. (For example, it seems easier for people to understand that pork or meat not killed in a certain way, is forbidden, than that someone doesn't want to eat meat.) I don't see how it's okay to follow a religious doctrine without having your own moral compass guiding you.

[NewfieMike]

Well, and this may be a bit more philosophical than I had planned, but it seems here that the reasons argued against eating meat is because you believe animals shouldn't be killed when they don't have to. I want to know what is the minimal form of life that you feel comfortable killing. Bacteria? Seems okay. Plants? Seems that they don't feel 'conscious' pain so we can kill them too. Where is the line between the the ethics of killing an organism versus not?

 

I also don't think people care too much when vegetarians say "I like to eat vegetables only as a personal preference". I think they just stir up the buzz upon themselves when they say things such as "it's for ethical reasons"

[spiderpig]

I also don't think people care too much when vegetarians say "I like to eat vegetables only as a personal preference". I think they just stir up the buzz upon themselves when they say things such as "it's for ethical reasons"

 

Well if that's the reason for it, I don't see why we'd have to lie about it or mask the truth just to make someone else happy. If someone cares enough to ask, they shouldn't get offended by the truth. Trust me, it's not to stir up the buzz.

(I'd also like to point out that "ethical" was only one of the reasons I stated, along with a smilie which I thought would indicate that I wasn't giving a detailed, thought-out answer. You picked that one out specifically.)

 

As for your other question, I'm not an autotroph; I need to eat something. The line may be difficult to draw - some people who call themselves vegetarians still eat fish, etc. But lines always need to be drawn in all aspects of life. I try to do the best that I can.

[Carabiner]

Yippee, thread hijacking!

again aside from that my points are:

 

-There is nothing wrong with killing animals for consumption, animals eat animals all the time. We have evolved to be omnivores, that is what nature determined.

 

- As long as you take care of yourself and look after your diet, there is no significant health benefit to not eating meat.

I'm vegetarian too, and my reasons are also for ethical and health reasons. I have nothing against meat or meat-eaters; it's ultimately my own decision though to not eat meat, that I don't impose on other people.

 

I agree that humans evolved as omnivores and it's natural to eat meat. I think it's actually okay to kill animals for meat - it's how we humans survived a long time ago. However, I think what occurs now is not "natural". A lot of it has to do with the conditions that the animals are kept in: I don't support the way animals are kept before being killed; I don't support how they're injected with hormones to be tastier, fattier, etc; I don't support how in many slaughterhouses, the animals are not killed in a quick manner the way medical research at least tries to do.

 

I think that humans came from a place where we needed to eat meat. However, I choose to not eat it now because I don't agree with the process with which meat is produced now. I'm just lucky and privileged enough to live in a time and place that provides me with alternatives to meat.

 

PS: Yeah, I realize that there's not a lot that's "natural" nowadays. I guess my position is that you just gotta pick your battles. Vegetarianism is one of my decisions.

[Devari]

Yippee, thread hijacking!

I'm vegetarian too, and my reasons are also for ethical and health reasons. I have nothing against meat or meat-eaters; it's ultimately my own decision though to not eat meat, that I don't impose on other people.

 

I agree that humans evolved as omnivores and it's natural to eat meat. I think it's actually okay to kill animals for meat - it's how we humans survived a long time ago. However, I think what occurs now is not "natural". A lot of it has to do with the conditions that the animals are kept in: I don't support the way animals are kept before being killed; I don't support how they're injected with hormones to be tastier, fattier, etc; I don't support how in many slaughterhouses, the animals are not killed in a quick manner the way medical research at least tries to do.

 

I think that humans came from a place where we needed to eat meat. However, I choose to not eat it now because I don't agree with the process with which meat is produced now. I'm just lucky and privileged enough to live in a time and place that provides me with alternatives to meat.

 

PS: Yeah, I realize that there's not a lot that's "natural" nowadays. I guess my position is that you just gotta pick your battles. Vegetarianism is one of my decisions.

 

This is one of the few rational arguments I've heard regarding an "ethical" reason for being a vegetarian, i.e., because of how livestock animals are treated rather than due to any issues with the idea of killing an animal and consuming meat.

 

I'd also accept the argument that a vegetarian diet is typically healthier than an omnivore diet since most of our sources of meat in North America are poor quality, high in fat, and so on. At the same time, someone on a vegetarian diet needs to be aware of the limitations of vegetarian food sources and ensure they have a balanced diet. Many people who insist that their vegetarian diet is "healthy" unfortunately have no knowledge of nutrition or metabolism and often end up with many dietary deficiencies as a result.

 

It's when someone tries to tell me that eating meat itself is somehow "wrong" when I usually laugh and tell that person that they're retarded. My favourite example is those nature shows where a lion runs down an antelope, kills it and proceeds to devour it as it's still twitching. Was the predator "wrong" to kill its prey? For some reason many vegetarians seem to have problems with a person killing an animal for food yet will claim that it's OK if other animals kill each other, which is completely inconsistent. The irony is that a human hunter kills an animal in a far more "humane" manner than a natural predator. A principled hunter will always try to get a clean kill, will put the animal down immediately if it wasn't killed with the first shot and will even track a wounded animal down so it can be put down and doesn't suffer. Most hunters have a strong respect for animals and don’t want to see them suffer. In fact, most of the hunters I’ve met are far more ethical and knowledgeable in their treatment of animals than many vegetarians I’ve encountered.

[Carabiner]

This is one of the few rational arguments I've heard regarding an "ethical" reason for being a vegetarian, i.e., because of how livestock animals are treated rather than due to any issues with the idea of killing an animal and consuming meat.

Thanks Devari. I've been veg since I was 16, and a lot of questions and comments directed toward me have forced me to do a lot of introspection. That said, I wish I didn't need to have that much antipathy directed toward me. (I'm not saying it's from anyone on the boards; just what I've experienced in life.) I've had some people ask me why I'm vegetarian in such an angry tone that I've been tempted to tell them it was for religious reasons, to see whether their reactions change. I find there's a lot of feeling directed toward vegetarians who make their own choice independently, as opposed to for religious obligations.

For some reason many vegetarians seem to have problems with a person killing an animal for food yet will claim that it's OK if other animals kill each other, which is completely inconsistent. The irony is that a human hunter kills an animal in a far more "humane" manner than a natural predator. A principled hunter will always try to get a clean kill, will put the animal down immediately if it wasn't killed with the first shot and will even track a wounded animal down so it can be put down and doesn't suffer. Most hunters have a strong respect for animals and don’t want to see them suffer. In fact, most of the hunters I’ve met are far more ethical and knowledgeable in their treatment of animals than many vegetarians I’ve encountered.

The difference between this kind of hunting and modern factory farming is huge though. I have nothing against Inuits, say, who still do their own hunting, who use every bit of that animal to survive and thrive. Nor do I have anything against this friend of mine who grew up on a small farm, where they would raise their own chickens for their own food.

 

What I'm personally opposed to are the, IMO, unprincipled and inhumane practices that occur in modern factory farming, not done by traditional hunters and non-commercial farms. Modern factory farming employs killing methods that are not meant to be quick or swift. Feeding dead sheep to cows strikes me as neither healthy to the cow or to humans (as BSE can confirm). Likewise, I think there's something unbelievably cruel about sport-hunters who shoot deer from helicopters without caring to use the dead deer or follow wounded ones. Honestly, if the processing of meat was done in a more humane, controlled, and moderated manner, I might not be vegetarian. But until that changes, I just feel best staying away from meat.

[japlanet]

Yippee, thread hijacking!

I'm vegetarian too, and my reasons are also for ethical and health reasons. I have nothing against meat or meat-eaters; it's ultimately my own decision though to not eat meat, that I don't impose on other people.

 

I agree that humans evolved as omnivores and it's natural to eat meat. I think it's actually okay to kill animals for meat - it's how we humans survived a long time ago. However, I think what occurs now is not "natural". A lot of it has to do with the conditions that the animals are kept in: I don't support the way animals are kept before being killed; I don't support how they're injected with hormones to be tastier, fattier, etc; I don't support how in many slaughterhouses, the animals are not killed in a quick manner the way medical research at least tries to do.

 

I think that humans came from a place where we needed to eat meat. However, I choose to not eat it now because I don't agree with the process with which meat is produced now. I'm just lucky and privileged enough to live in a time and place that provides me with alternatives to meat.

 

PS: Yeah, I realize that there's not a lot that's "natural" nowadays. I guess my position is that you just gotta pick your battles. Vegetarianism is one of my decisions.

 

Though I do occasionally eat meat, I try to stick to meat from local family farms for these reasons. I'll add, the despicable practice of factory farms of giving all their livestock huge, unnecessary doses of antibiotics, both for prophylaxis and to make them grow faster, breeding resistance. That really pisses me off.

[Devari]

What I'm personally opposed to are the, IMO, unprincipled and inhumane practices that occur in modern factory farming, not done by traditional hunters and non-commercial farms. Modern factory farming employs killing methods that are not meant to be quick or swift. Feeding dead sheep to cows strikes me as neither healthy to the cow or to humans (as BSE can confirm). Likewise, I think there's something unbelievably cruel about sport-hunters who shoot deer from helicopters without caring to use the dead deer or follow wounded ones. Honestly, if the processing of meat was done in a more humane, controlled, and moderated manner, I might not be vegetarian. But until that changes, I just feel best staying away from meat.

 

I agree that the widespread use of hormones and antibiotics and feeding ground-up animals to herbivore livestock are very disturbing practices. I still eat North American meat sources simply because it's nearly impossible to eat meat in North America that hasn't been put through modern livestock practices unless you have the time, resources and ability to actually hunt and prepare meat yourself. If there was a readily available alternative to modern meat sources (for example, if restaurants routinely had organic meat sources available) I'd happily spend more money for a healthier product. I think a major part of the issue is that many people simply don't realize all of the problems with how modern livestock are raised and if more people were aware of these issues there would probably be a much greater demand for organic meat sources.

 

I also agree on the issue of "sport hunters" who run animals down in vehicles and then drive off without even using the animal for food. I don't even consider those people hunters at all because running down an animal in a truck or helicopter isn't hunting, it's just someone trying to legitimize the pointless killing of animals. The cases where I would make exceptions would be when it's necessary to kill an animal species that has overpopulated a region or if animals need to be killed to prevent a disease that is running out of control. In most cases though the indiscriminate killing of animal species has caused major ecological problems. The excessive killing of wolves in North America simply because it was "inconvenient" for farmers to lose livestock to wolves is a good example of how indiscriminate killing of certain animals can completely disrupt ecological balance.

[Wolvenstar]

I have heard some very logical and rational arguements here.Thank you all.

 

Fireball;

 

-while it dissappoints me to hear the your disslike of cottage cheese, at least there is more for me.

 

I have always found the dichotomy of vegetarians who eat fish/dairy and pure vegetarians/vegans

 

 

Although I must admit the arguements on farming practices is a strong one. I am lucky enough to have a larger family, and farmer in this family. His is a smaller farm and so many of the more distrubing practices aren't used. Most of his meat is sold to family because we all trust it to be decent.

 

 

Jochi;

 

I totally agree, If i don't eat meat for a couple days I start feeling ill. I love meat, and it satisfies my hunger in ways vegetables alone just don't.

 

 

Spiderpid;

 

"... It can't be too difficult to understand why someone wouldn't want to kill an animal if they didn't need to."

 

 

Actually for myself I have a very hard time understanding this. I admit I am a hunter, and chasing down animal, getting the pride of the kill. It just makes the meal seem so much more satisfying. If there was a way for it to be sustainable I would avocate, every person spending part of their life learning to be a hunter, a predator. Mind you I should also admit, I lament the fact that I can't be more of a true carnivore. I am the kind of person who loves the hunt, and loves to eat meat as much like a carnivore as possible. (my steaks tend to be blue-rare, to a little less)

 

 

Devari;

I just wanted to give you a high-five

 

 

 

As for the talks of "Hunters" I am not sure where you are getting most of your information from. (although I don't know eastern canadian regulations) BC and Alberta have rather decent regulations on hunting, and what happens to the body. (BC is more strict than alberta though). You will get fined for leaving an animals body strewn out along the ground. Even those trophy hunters I know of, who don't actually eat the wild meat (a horrible sin, since it tastes soo good), who still take it in to the butcher. Butcher's love wild meat as they can sell it for a tidy profit. Most often when I haven't butchered my own meat, I allow the butcher to keep a portion of the meat, and have my meat cut for free. The thing I see most often discarded is the hide, as items made from the hide are not very popular.

[Devari]

Devari;

I just wanted to give you a high-five

 

 

 

As for the talks of "Hunters" I am not sure where you are getting most of your information from. (although I don't know eastern canadian regulations) BC and Alberta have rather decent regulations on hunting, and what happens to the body. (BC is more strict than alberta though). You will get fined for leaving an animals body strewn out along the ground. Even those trophy hunters I know of, who don't actually eat the wild meat (a horrible sin, since it tastes soo good), who still take it in to the butcher. Butcher's love wild meat as they can sell it for a tidy profit. Most often when I haven't butchered my own meat, I allow the butcher to keep a portion of the meat, and have my meat cut for free. The thing I see most often discarded is the hide, as items made from the hide are not very popular.

 

The vast majority of hunters I've met are very conscientious and follow hunting regulations closely. The "sport hunters" I was referring to are just some of the extreme examples that I've heard of, they're certainly not a common occurrence. As far as I'm concerned if you're using a pickup truck to run down animals that's not what I'd consider hunting. It's just one of those problems that can happen when someone with a gun decides they want to kill animals but doesn't have the patience or discipline to hunt properly. It's similar to when some moron takes a high-powered rifle and uses small animals as target practice, then puts a video of it on youtube because he thinks it's "awesome" to see a high-powered rifle bullet tear something apart. Here in Canada the vast majority of the hunters I've met are very conscientious and knowledgeable but unfortunately it only takes a few morons to affect the public perception of all the legitimate hunters out there.