To Kirsteen

[Guest tappety tap]

Hi,

 

So, if I have this correctly, you are currently in the MSc. epidemiology program at U of T? I have applied to the behavourial sciences stream in that dept for the fall. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the program, the profs, the dept in general...especially in light of Dannyboy's comments on his experiences at U of T as a grad student. Thanks for your help!!

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there tappety tap,

 

I think I answered some of your questions in another thread. To try to breach the rest, to be honest, I'm not that familiar with the Behavioural Sciences program, so I don't think I can offer too much program-specific insight. I can tell you that folks with research interests similar to yours are involved in a huge variety of investigations at CAMH (the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health).

 

The Department itself is undergoing a bit of an overhaul at the moment as some programs are being redesigned, and we are moving to a new location in 2004 (the former Education building on the south side of College, west of University).

 

Finally, I respect Dannyboy's opinion, but I also feel that graduate life is partly what you make it. A university can provide you with only so much and you must provide the rest. Given that, UofT has a wealth of resources which are just waiting to be used; if you're a self-starter, you'll thrive.

 

 

Overall, my experience at UT has been excellent and I do not feel that I've compromised my career nor much else by completing my M.Sc. at UT; on the contrary, for me it's been a place to flourish (and I hope, for you too!).

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Dannyboy]

no offence Kirsteen but I do think your comment (ie. grad school is what you make of it) is overly simplistic and rather insensitive. Trust me, I am as tough as they come. I have been through a tremendous amount of negative experiences in my life. I always make the best of any situation--always. My grad school experiences have been shared by my cohort--we are all suffering AS WOULD ANYONE WHO HAVE HAD TO ENDURE WHAT WE HAVE. ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

 

Grad school is what you make of it??? Not one single person who knows the details of our experiences over the last seven months hasn't agreed that they have been anything other than terribly unfair, unnecessary and very debilitating. I have been careful to stress that my experiences have *not* all been bad and that they are not necessarily indicative of grad school at U of T. U of T, however, have been grossly negligent in how they have addressed both my concerns and the concerns of others who have complained.

 

Do you not understand the situation? By formally complaining I compromised my future but I thought it was important enough that the situation be dealt with FOR OTHER STUDENTS IN THE FUTURE. There was NO benefit to me. NONE. Even writing these posts have no benefit; I have plenty of friends around if a rant is what I need/want. I did not start this thread; I just responded to a request directed to me. My posts have cost me time and have resulted in even more criticisms thrown my way. I don't mind this at all but I obviously do mind when people make uninformed comments such as "grad school is what you make of it"--ie. the problem is with me and my cohort.

[Guest Biochem10]

I'm not Kirsteen, but I would like to defend what she wrote in her post. I'm pretty sure her intention was not to belittle your experience, Dannyboy. I personally think that there are a lot of complainers in grad school, people who wanted to go into medicine, didn't get in and are not satisfied with being in grad school. These students call grad school "hell" because they don't love it and find it hard to get the results they need to write up a successful thesis. My experiences with grad students is limited to the sciences, so this is what I am talking about and Dannyboy, I'm sure this is not the kind of "hell" you are talking about. Anyway, I think what Kirsteen had in mind when she said "grad school is what you make of it" are those students who complain because they're not getting good results or they find their supervisor unhelpful, these people don't make the best of what could be a great learning experience. Having an unhelpful supervisor or struggling to get good results is not uncommon, it's how you approach the problem that determines whether or not you'll be happy with your experience. Dannyboy, I don't think this is at all what you've gone through and I appreciate that you stood up for what is unfair treatment.

[Guest Dannyboy]

To make my situation very clear: I most definitely did NOT chose grad school because I did not get into medical school and I honestly think most who chose grad school are not doing it for the reason you stated.

 

Neither grad school or medical school are the end-all-and-be-all for me. I had my choice in grad schools. I have many, many, options other than attending grad school or medical school. I actually only applied to one med school; if I don't get in: a big whatever.

 

I suggest you actually sit down with an open mind and listen to those "whiners" you mentioned. You might be surprised that some of them have extremely valid and legitamate complaints.

 

I am also in a COURSE driven grad program. I am not writing a thesis nor do I have to. I have written one with another prof at another school and yes, it was a difficult, challenging process. There were many times when my supervisor and I hated each other--we are currently on great terms and he remains one of my mentors. My complaints are totally outside the thesis=feces/madness realm. Grad school is not just what you make of it. It is what is done to you.

 

I am going to put it into a context that is completely (intentionally) exagerated: when a woman is sexually assaulted is this sexual experience what "she makes of it" or is it a hideous physical and psychological violation of her well being and sense of security? Many have and do argue that such a woman either asked for it or enjoyed the experience. Either way, the victim is far too often blamed for an act she had little if any control over. Like I wrote, this is an exagerated example but the same logic applies.

[Guest Biochem10]

Just to make it clear, I was not insinuating that YOU are one of those people that didn't get into med school and then chose grad school. I have met many many students who are though and they only went to grad school because they didn't know what else to do. In this respect, I don't want to listen to their complaints because if they don't like it they shouldn't be there. Anyway, like I said in my previous post you may be in a different situation in which your complaints are legitimate. In that case I agree that you have to stand up and speak up against the wrongdoings of a department/faculty/school. I don't agree that grad school is something that happens to you, you have a choice to be there.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi all,

 

Thanks Biochem10 for trying to clarify. As with much e-mail communication, a lot of it leaves much to interpretation, and something was misinterpreted here.

 

Dannyboy, I'm not trying to belittle your cohort's experience. Whatever may have happened to you obviously does not seem to have been your doing. ...and that gets back to my point: graduate school, to me, is partly what the school offers the experience and partly what the graduate student puts into the experience. The school doesn't control all of your graduate experience, nor do you. The school doesn't make all of your experience and neither do you.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Dannyboy]

Biochem: I don't know if you are a grad student or not but it seems like perhaps you either are not or that your experiences are somewhat limited (that was not at all meant to be derogatory): how do you define "choice" regarding being in grad school?

 

Starters: if you drop out of a program, it goes on your permanent record AND it MUST be reported in any subsequent school applications. This does not look at all good on any student's record. Dropping out is considered academic suicide at the graduate level unless it is for health/family reasons and even then....very, very risky. Secondly, if you are awarded a scholarship (which I was) then you would have to not only pay back the money in full if you 'chose' to quit but, as well, you would have to pay all of your tuition (unless you dropped out very early on in the semester). Kiss future scholarships awards good-bye. Thirdly, if you also have student loans, your status in this area will also be very adversely affected. Fourthly, your reputation in general is *toast*. Finally, if you are like me and many of my colleagues, you have moved both yourself and your family a great distance to attend your grad program--you have already made a significant financial, social, and emotional investment. I don't want to teach my son that it is okay to do this and then just quit school.

 

In consideration of what is involved with being in grad school, the word 'choice' assumes a different meaning. I chose to attend my school and my program; my choice to remain in my situation may still be a choice but I would argue that it not really a voluntary one.

 

Kirsteen: I know you meant know harm....I obviously just didn't agree with you statement. Since it is one that I've heard too often, I felt the need to comment.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi Dannyboy,

 

On a slightly tangential topic: at what level is your cohort experiencing problems? Is it supervisoral, departmental, Faculty...? At any of these levels, if the experiences are not unreasonable (cut me some slack here: I don't know what the experiences/problems are) and if there are enough of you to demonstrate the validity of your concerns, can you not take these concerns to a higher level? Alternatively, many departments have student associations or executive committees--does yours? Those are often good and effective fora for airing student concerns and putting some meaningful action into place.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Biochem10]

No, I am not in grad school nor have I ever been and yes, my experiences are obviously limited. I was referring to the choice of applying to grad school. Some people take this choice with a grain of salt and purely as a back up plan. I don't like when people choose to apply without fully realizing what grad school is all about. As far as dropping out after beginning a grad degree-- obviously, that's a pretty extreme choice to make--but I guess if someone were very unhappy to the point of being depressed I could see them doing this. Anyway, I'm happy we've been able to express our opinions on grad school, as I do plan on doing a graduate degree. It's really too bad that you had a bad experience at U of T, I hope that there is more open discourse to help change and improve the current policies. I hope there was no personal offense taken from any of the above posts.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hey Biochem10,

 

Something you mentioned before really rang true from my experience. I sometimes find it difficult to believe how many meds hopefuls are within graduate school (at least within some of the life sciences departments at UT)--and how many of them seem quite discontent. When completing my MBA there were few folks there for any reason other than to snag an MBA, i.e., the MBA was not a back-up plan for most, and as such, most were pretty happy in the program. Now, in the M.Sc., I've had the opportunity to float among all sorts of people, both, in my own department, and others; many whom are and seem quite unhappy. To boot: there's one woman in my year who, a few months back stated, "I hate this! Why do I have to do this when all I want to do is go to med school?" That's a horrific statement to hear and she has a battle ahead of her.

 

Unbiasedly, I don't feel that it's wrong to have graduate school as a back-up plan for medicine, or for anything else for that matter. What I do feel is wrong is going into graduate school without passion, fitting equipment, nor realistic expectations. Research, like any other job, suits different people differently, and I see a fair number of people who may not have checked out the job description before conscripting themselves.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest Biochem10]

That's precisely at what I was trying to say Kirsteen. I know a lot of people particularly in my class that are applying to grad school as a back up plan, but hate research. Those people shouldn't be using grad school as a back up plan because they are taking away spots from someone who truly loves research and wants to be there. There are other ways, besides grad school, to increase your chances of getting into medicine.

[Guest multifish]

I would like to offer some support for dannyboy.

 

I am in a research based master's. I chose to do a grad degree at U of T out of many possible schools...I had an international NSERC and could have gone where I wished. I did not originally wish to go to medical school, and I thought I enjoyed research..I certainly had a lot of background in it. My supervisor is awesome, and my project, while not everything I could wish for, is not too bad, although I'm in the ending stages which I really dislike and find extremely tedious.

 

But I nonetheless HATE my master's. I wish I'd never done it..I considered dropping out halfway, but was dissuaded by the fact that it would impede my future chances in many different arenas. The profs in my dept. are real and friendly (with a few dreadful exceptions), the students are pretty cool, the courses are dull, but the whole process is dry dry dry and for me, painfully slow. I believe there are very few people for whom grad school is the correct choice, and I would heavily encourage anyone considering grad school to think about it deeply, because it is a painful experience for almost everyone, and U of T can be exceptionally bureaucratic and make the experience all the more irksome (e.g. I work at a desk that is too tall for my height and gives me back pain. I have complained about it for two years and no change).

 

Dannyboy, congrats on being brave enough to come forward. I know people in my department under the cruddiest supervisor imaginable who will not speak out against him because they fear for their own future, or because it doesn't profit them personally. I think it's awesome that you spoke out.

[Guest newbee]

Is there a reason that people do a grad degree as a back-up. I've heard its probably harder to get in with a Master's and that the only real way to increase admission chances is by doing another undergrad degree if your marks weren't good enough the first time around.

 

Plus with a science background you could go to a bunch of different programs; physio, pharm, law, MBA(co-op), dentistry. If these people dislike research, why on earth would they do a Master's. I'm sure most of them don't end up in med school (look at the medschool stats on their website, hardly anyone who went the Master's route gets in) since they didn't have the juice to make it in after undergrad. That just means they will have to use their Master's to work in a field they hate......you got it research! Why would you go down a path you hate, end up an addict on anti-depressants.......Weird,Weird, Weird.

 

Just my thoughts

[Guest Biochem10]

Hey newbee, at some schools having a Masters decreases the GPA requirement for med school, for instance at U of T or Ottawa. McGill also looks favorably at grad applicants. (Remember, there is usually a component of research in residency, so this is where some MSc and PhD students have an advantage) There may be a lot of reasons why there aren't a lot of grads applying to medicine or getting in. First of all, after a Masters some people decide not to go into medicine for various reasons (even if their original intention was to go to med), age and exposure to another career are reasons I can think of. I met a grad student in a lab I was working in who applied to medicine three times, once after undergrad, once after his Masters and once during his PhD, after all the frustration, he finally told me that he realized that medicine is probably just not for him. Anyway, you are totally right there are other things you can do after undergrad instead of a masters and I encourage anyone who is not serious about research to explore their options.

[Guest Dannyboy]

Thanks for the comments multifish...boy do I hear ya. Can not believe the desk situation...oh wait: yes I certainly can believe. Complaining has been very difficult and there have been many times that I regretted it. At this point, my only hope is that the situation for students in the future will be improved (?)

 

Dearest Newbie and Biochem10:

I think you might be stereotyping the masters situation a bit. I had the highest GPA in my department and since my department is considered the top in the world...my situation essentially equates to my most certainly NOT undertaking a MA because my undergrad marks were not up to snuff. No one in my department is anything other than a top student--remember, an "A-/A" average is needed to APPLY; unless, of course, you happen to be a U of T student--special discriminatory rules apply to this group. Please do not get me wrong--my favorite people belong to this group so I am thankful exceptions were made for them but still...even they agree that the selection process was not fair.

 

So, for the majority of MA programs, you are looking at excellent, very highly motivated and qualified students. Many programs are more difficult to get into than med schools.

 

Overall, I love doing research. Most people I've met in MA programs do research and/or policy work. As multifish pointed out, much of research is tedious, frustrating, and so dry it is truly painful. Yes, the mental and physical toll can be very significant. You go out there and undertake *independent* research and come back and give us a report. Perhaps you'll love it as well but I think you might agree about its negative aspects. Regardless, it can be very rewarding so I would encourage you to give it a try.

 

Finally, the reasons why people chose to undertake a MA are multiple and very heterogenous. It is not fair and certainly not accurate to think that is any one reason why people apply to grad school. There are over 10 000 grad students at U of T---think about it. That is a tremendously diverse group of people.

 

I will tell you this: I did NOT have any intention on applying to med school prior applying to graduate school. I don't care if some schools like grad degrees and some don't--I am on my own personal journey and getting a MA was an important aspect of this. It is a part of ME. If med school doesn't like what they see in me, so be it. I won't modify myself to suit the needs of ANY selecton committee. I want and intend to be very honest because I want to assure that they chose the right applicant and I also want to be as certain as possible that they are what I want.

 

Once again, I encourage you to pursue both research and graduate work if that is what you think is best for you.

 

P.S. I forgot to add that with my cohort at least, NO ONE did the program as an "alternative" option because they could not do what they really wanted to. There are even a number of people in my program who got deferrals from other programs because they wanted to do an MA.

[Guest newbee]

Dannyboy you've hit the nail on the head.

 

Those who truly desire to pursue research and do a Master's should. I fully agree that a great majourity of these people have no alternate motive. However in Life sciences unfortunately as Kirsteen pointed out, there are a number of med school "rejects" who have no intention of doing research, dislike or even hate what they are doing, and essentially are taking spots away in Grad school from those folks that have a strong desire to engage in research.

 

To summarize, if grad school is pursued because you want to be there and have an interest in the field of research go for it. It just irks alot people when these med school types just need a place to park their butt for two years and then have the nerve to complain and say "I hate this I want to be in medschool".....well guess what sweetheart medschool didn't want to have anything to do with you so move on!

[Guest icedog12]

Hi Everyone,

 

Enough with these cryptic messages and veiled insults . . . you guys should meet somewhere and settle these differences in opinion the old fashion way . I'm just kidding. Seriously, you all seem to be mature students who have a great deal of experience and a heightened awareness of what goes on. All of your opinions are equally valid and well articulated.

 

I have an interview on April 12th and reading these posts has helped immensely. My views of UofT that have been instilled in me have been based mostly on reputation and what I read on their website. Now I'm a little more skeptical (which is good) but willing to find out more for myself. I still want to go to UofT and I hope to have great experiences there.

 

Thanks and hopefully your future experiences at UofT are postive!

[Guest Isolda115]

Hi Kirsteen,

 

I have followed some of your posts and must express my disappointment in the admissions process for having missed a person like you, it simply proves it has many flaws.

The reason for this post are somewhat selfish, I wanted to perhaps get some advice from you with respect to the Epidemiology masters at UofT, in the dept of Public Health Sciences, to which I have applied this year. As you are well into it maybe you could shed some light on what should my next steps be. When are we expected to hear whether we have been accepted into the program? Also did you cocntact potential supervisors once you were accepted or prior to that. And if you have any suggestions for good supervisors (particularly in cancer epidemiology) i would be grateful to hear your perspective.

I should add that I have applied to meds school too, U of T ( rejection), and Otawa where I had an interview but I am not too hopeful about it, hence the alternate plans I am approaching.

If you want to email me with some of your suggestions, only if you have time and if I am not asking too much, please do so at toanaflorescu@yahoo.com

 

Ana

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi Ana,

 

Thanks for your post! I'm sorry to hear about your rejection though. :\

 

I'd be happy to share some M.Sc. Epi insights with you. I'll zip a note over shortly.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest tappety tap]

Hey Kirsteen!!

 

I just found out that I am admitted into the U of T Public Health Dept in the Health and Behavioural Sciences stream!! I have some questions about the program....would you mind emailing me at melissarap11@hotmail.com

 

Thanks so much!!!

[Guest tantastic]

Tappety Tap:

 

Congratulations on your acceptance!!!!!

 

Just wondering are you formely known as the poster itsmemelissa from last year?

 

Anyways careerwise what are you planning to do with your degree? Is it just to improve your chances for medschool?

 

Thanks in advance for the response

[Guest tappety tap]

Thanks so much!!!

 

Nope I wasn't on the boards last year, so that wasn't me.

 

I have applied to med school and that is one of my dreams but i am also very interested in research in public health. If I do get into med this year, I will for sure go that road and then pursue a master's during residency. The way I see it, it doesn't matter all that much which order I do it.

 

Feel free to ask me any more questions!

[Guest Dmac]

Hi Kirsteen,

I've been reading some of your posts and truly, you seem like the type of doctor I would want! (yeah, I know, if only I were on the admissions committee :hat ) anyways, I'm also exploring my options for the future, and I'm interested in public/population health issues..however, I'll be graduating this year with a degree in pharmacology and have only limited statistics experience (did a 4th year project course in clinical pharmacology)....I guess my question is if I were to apply to the Epi grad program at UofT, would I have a shot? And what would be the best route to go about this? Thanks! (still hoping for UT meds, though...)

[Guest Koggetsu]

After reading all these posts, boy am I glad that i didn't go into a Msc research program to increase my chances for med school. I mean i heard that UT looks very favorably on people who did their Masters and so I was struggling with that decision. Anyways in the end i didn't do a Masters and rite now I'm glad i didn't. But although its true that a lot of people do a Masters as a backup plan when they couldn't get into meds or a professional program but I don't think u guys should be so hard on them. I mean seriously this BSc. degree is useless for finding a job in terms of the knowledge that u learned unless u are trying to find a job as a lab tech which is almost the same as doing a Masters. So when they can't find a job or get into a professional program then they end up going back to school as a Masters student.