UofT EngSci vs Guelph Engineering

[EliteAssassin23]

Hey everyone, I am trying to decide between U of T EngSci(Biomedical Option) and Guelph Biomedical Engineering. My ultimate goal is either med school (60% chance) or grad school in biomedical engineering (40% chance). I am only considering Guelph Engineering because I received a $32000 president's scholarship (which includes guaranteed research in first year) from Guelph. However, I am worried that Guelph's lack of reputation could jeopardize my chances of grad school (esp in U.S) or even getting a job. For EngSci, I am worried that the difficulty of the program could kill my GPA.

 

1. What do you think of Guelph Engineering? How does it rank? How's its coop?

2. How important is school/program reputation when it comes to grad school? How about med school?

3. What are the pros and cons of U of T and Guelph?

4. Guelph has a academically inferior student body (entrance average of 82% vs 92% in engineering science). Would that be a problem in Engineering, since there's many group projects?

5. WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE if you were in my situation?

 

Thanks guys

[UTPEOPLE]

If I were you, I would pick neither. If you are thinking of engineering as backup, then prestige is important, but waterloo engineering is likely best in that regard. If you care about med school at all... engineering in general is a terrible idea. Will kill your GPA

[trymeover]

Dude, everybody here is so anti-engineering and anti-anyschoolbutYork, it's not even funny.

 

There's plenty of people in medical school from engineering.

 

And I personally know a person in medschool from waterloo engineering.

 

Yes, engineering may be hard, but that doesn't mean eliminate it as an option from the onset. It's viable if you're interested in it.

 

Furthermore, this dude states that medical school is 60%-40% for whatever the hell he means.

 

If there's one thing I've learnt, it's do what you like, not what is easy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why did I just randomly write a semi-passionate post...

[astrogirl]

1. I have no idea, and I don't think its rank matters at much at all. That would be pretty low down on my list of concerns.

2. Grad school - close to zero, at least in my field (physics/astronomy). Med school - about the same. As long as you're at a legitimate, accredited university and you do well, that's all that really matters. Going to a big name school will impress some people and put off others. It all evens out in the end, so go where you can do well.

3. It sounds to me like your scholarship is a huge pro for Guelph.

4. I don't think that will matter at all. High school marks are pretty meaningless as a predictor of how well you'll do in university.

5. Guelph, unless you have some really compelling reason to go to UofT. That scholarship and getting to do research in your first year is a pretty big reason to go to Guelph. I think you would be crazy to turn that down unless you have a really major reason to (like the head of the Guelph engineering department ran over your dog or something).

 

The GPA thing in engineering is somewhat of a legitimate concern, but the main thing is just to be aware that it may be a bit harder to get a high GPA, and plan accordingly. Don't let that stop you from doing engineering. A big thing that I think helps explain why engineering GPA's seem to be lower is that engineering is generally something that leads directly to a job. A B average or even a C average is good enough to graduate and get a job, and most engineering students would rather spend more time working or doing research than studying enough to get all A's. That's actually a pretty smart move if you're not planning to apply to more school when you're done. Employers don't care about your GPA, but they do care about your work experience. But it is possible to get a high GPA in engineering if that's what you want.

[EliteAssassin23]

Thanks everyone for your replies. One thing I forgot to mention is that Guelph has a pretty strong program in biomedical sciences (88% entrance average, 30% go to med school from the program) and I might actually decide to major in that instead. From what I have heard, it is quite easy to go to a biomedical engineering graduate program after doing a major in the biomedical sciences (you just have to take a few extra courses). Is that true? Would that path be better(and safer) than majoring in biomedical engineering? Also, in addition to engineering, what are your feelings about Guelph in general?

[crockett]

If your goal is med school, I would highly recommend against EngSci. Despite the crazy high cut-off to get in, 50% of them still fail out in first year....not too many kids coming into many university programs with 95 averages out of high school failing out in any other field. Bottom line is, it's really, really, really hard to do well, even for people who are really, really smart. That being said, from my friends who have gone on into engineering at other very well known engineering schools (Queens, Waterloo, etc.) U of T's EngSci's reputation is basically unmatched, so if you plan on designing equipment for NASA to use someday, it's probably your best bet.

[AdamP]

Checking off engineering as my major was probably the best decision I have made in the last five years.

 

I was going to leave it at that, but might as well list some quick reasons.

 

-Amazing opportunities, I've literally been able to travel around the world b/c of eng, there are all sorts of competitions, conferences etc. that most eng faculties are happy to send their students to, since the class sizes are generally smaller then other programs there is less competition not only for trips and such but things like NSERC USRAs etc...

- It's a professional program, so not only are you learning cool technical stuff but you are getting experience in ethics, business, communications etc. and that's just in the class, there are tonnes of other opportunities outside the class to further develop those skills (EWB comes to mind off the bat)

- The marks are good, first of all if you work hard you are going to get good marks, I can guarantee that. One thing to keep in mind, and this is common for other professional programs as well (teaching, nursing, and surprise meds) is that people are there to pass and many are pretty happy with their 60-70s, you will find the distribution of marks to be very bimodal. Lots of people right around the pass mark, and another group in the 80-90s (that group is smaller). I'm not going to sit here and say its a cake walk, but if you're serious, you go to most classes and study hard for finals you will be in that second group.

- Its a family, you'll especially see this at guelph, you will know everyone's names, party with these people, assignments are group affairs, and basically you get to stave off some of that nasty pre-med competition ( i know not all schools have this, but i've heard enough horror stories)

 

 

As for choices, unless you are really in love with Toronto the city, I'd say Guelph is a no-brainier, first of all that's a fat scholarship and second of all I think it would just be less stressful in general, don't worry about the research if you keep up your marks, do a couple summer projects, write up a nice thesis you'll be set for further engineering research (you don't even really need to do any of that to be good for most places in Canada, US i'm not as familiar with).

[EliteAssassin23]

Hey Adam, thx for the reply....are in Guelph Engineering urself? If so, how are the lab facilities? How's the coop at Guelph? Are Guelph students able to successfully compete w/ U of T or Waterloo students for coop placements?

[Tara21]

Just a couple thoughts:

- That scholarship is awesome.

- Guelph is a nice city and cheaper to live in than Toronto (but still close enough to TO to visit).

- Before you make a final decision, I'm sure you could ask those co-op and reputation questions of the admission people of UofG. They should give you info on previous co-op placements of student and where they've been hired to after graduation.

 

Good luck!

[rmorelan]

Hey everyone, I am trying to decide between U of T EngSci(Biomedical Option) and Guelph Biomedical Engineering. My ultimate goal is either med school (60% chance) or grad school in biomedical engineering (40% chance). I am only considering Guelph Engineering because I received a $32000 president's scholarship (which includes guaranteed research in first year) from Guelph. However, I am worried that Guelph's lack of reputation could jeopardize my chances of grad school (esp in U.S) or even getting a job. For EngSci, I am worried that the difficulty of the program could kill my GPA.

 

1. What do you think of Guelph Engineering? How does it rank? How's its coop?

2. How important is school/program reputation when it comes to grad school? How about med school?

3. What are the pros and cons of U of T and Guelph?

4. Guelph has a academically inferior student body (entrance average of 82% vs 92% in engineering science). Would that be a problem in Engineering, since there's many group projects?

5. WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE if you were in my situation?

 

Thanks guys

 

I have seen a lot of smart people get hit pretty hard in EngSci at toronto (by the way are you comparing the average engineering admission average at guelph to the hardest engineering program at toronto? Seems like comparing two somewhat differnt things if so )

 

School rep is pretty much useless at the med admissions game. Schools have offical policies about not considering that as an admissions factor.

[sgt.pepper]

GO TO GUELPH! 32000 is a lot of money + research + you will make really good friends(networking) + Guelph is a really good school. You are better off going to Guelph for UG and then when you graduate go to a school like UofT for grad school. Or med if you choose. I say go to a school like UofT for grad because i am guessing that they have better researchers and funding. Its not a about prestige of the school but the prestige of the lab you work in. For example look at James Thomson, hes at UC santa barbera. If i was a grad student I would rather apply to him then go to UCLA if i wanted to study stem cells

[AdamP]

Hey Adam, thx for the reply....are in Guelph Engineering urself? If so, how are the lab facilities? How's the coop at Guelph? Are Guelph students able to successfully compete w/ U of T or Waterloo students for coop placements?

 

I'm at uwo, I suppose its a nice median between the uoft and Guelph sizes.

 

Can't say much about co-ops, I don't know if guelph runs a co-op term like waterloo does, I spent 2/3 summers doing research and one summer at a co-op but it wasn't eng related.

 

It sounds like you are interested in research so you'll probably want to be looking in to some USRAs etc. rather then trad co-ops. That being said the pay is much better in co-ops so you may want to try both! Things get easier for both co-op placements and usra's as you progress through the years. I would actually suggest you think about writing the mcat after first year, just because that would be the year where you have the least opportunity for a good summer job. (it is possible to work and do mcat too, that's a separate discussion though).

[DrOz]

I did an undergrad in Engineering and a masters in applied science (biomedical engineering). If I could do it again, I would most likely choose the same degrees, perhaps doing my MASc right after engineering instead of working for a few years.

 

The greatest boon of engineering is that it teaches you how to think and solve problems. It is a professional degree and effectively it's own Plan B if you abandon the pursuit of medicine. The down side is that if you want to subsequently apply into a field like medicine, you'll have to get used to the change in teaching style/material and adjust accordingly.

 

Having said that, I've talked to several engineers in med school and every single one has said that engineering competes with medicine in terms of work load / difficulty, but it's a bit apples and oranges. Also to my knowledge adcoms don't give out consolation points for spending more time on an engineering degree (ex. required overloading). The restrictions on electives also make it hard to get what you need for some med schools and there really isn't much in the way of 'bird' courses in engineering.

 

Lastly, you need to get all A's and A+'s if you want to ensure that the GPA portion of any med app is in the bag, so to speak. One problem I found with eng is that getting such a high GPA while taking part in the extra curricular activities necessary to compete is challenging (I tended to focus on the GPA side of things because it's a lot harder to improve post undergrad). As such, I've spent more years than I'd like playing "catch-up" but everyone's mileage may vary.

 

Bottom line: If you want to go to medicine for sure without question, take an EASY degree to get all A+'s and/or do something truly exceptional/unique during your undergrad (non-academic). Unless there's something about engineering that you think you'll really love (like me), it is far from the optimal path to take to get into medical school in Canada.

[LostCause]

Avoid EngSci like the plague. EngSci provides no advantages but beats you into a senseless pulp. The program's entering average is mid-90s for highschoolers yet half the class doesn't survive 1st year. I personally know over 100 people who were in the program at one time or another. I know several who did 2nd undergrads afterwards to make up for their crummy GPA in EngSci. I even know a few who failed out and went on to other programs and are now faculty members themselves at various universities.

 

You have been warned.

 

If you want Engineering and want UofT, go the regular route.

[EliteAssassin23]

That's the problem. Some ppl say EngSci is manageable and an rewarding experience and a 3.8 + GPA is possible if u manage ur time properly and have good work habits. On the other hand, others say that EngSci is a GPA killer and would be a bad idea if I'm considering med school. I guess I'll prob just go to Guelph for biomedical sciences(then do a grad program in BME if I become more interested in BME than med school). What do u guys think?

[NLengr]

The engineering school you attend has no influence on your ability to get a job. Employers don't give a **** about whether you went to Harvard, UofT or Hollywood Upstairs Engineering college. As long as you have a degree that is accepted by the regulatory body of the province they are happy.

 

What really matters in work experience. You can have a 4.0 at Oxford, but if you have no experience working on oil wells, then Exxon Mobile is gonna hire Joe Blow who has a 2.8 at some random school with the 12 months of co-op experience in the oil industry.

 

Even in academic research, your undergrad institution means jack sh*t. Then it's where you did your PhD.

[mark1020804]

I would say that if you really like engineering, and you really like the theoretical aspects, then go ahead and do Engsci. People say it's a GPA-Killer because they do not want to put in the effort. If you look at it from the right perspective, actually go to your profs for help, you will get into medical school. Also, Engsci is nice if you're applying to grad school in the states:)

[LostCause]

I would say that if you really like engineering, and you really like the theoretical aspects, then go ahead and do Engsci. People say it's a GPA-Killer because they do not want to put in the effort.

 

This is completely false. The people who fail out of EngSci still pull all nighters. They get tossed out of EngSci for having 60s and then in the regular stream they start pulling 80s.

 

The program is built on the premise that they will make it incredibly difficult and fail out half of the individuals who get enrolled. (I am not kidding) So even if you survive the first 2 years, you are then given the privilege of being at the bottom of the bell curve in the remaining years.

 

Just to give you some numbers (this is from a few years back). 240 enrolled in first year with high-school average of about 95-96%. After 2nd year, there were like 110 remaining. So if you were ranked around 100 in the initial class of 240, you are then 100 of 110 in 3rd year and at the bottom of the bell curve going forward. Yippee

 

I still remember seeing the EngScis pulling an all nighter at the school lab on a FRIDAY.

 

 

 

And to add, EngSci or not, you will not get into graduate school without a good GPA. I have a few EngSci friends that got screwed over because their GPAs were not as high some in the regular stream for grad school. The program only displays the dozen poster childs each year, you don't see what happens to the other 200.

[AdamP]

This is completely false. The people who fail out of EngSci still pull all nighters. They get tossed out of EngSci for having 60s and then in the regular stream they start pulling 80s.

 

The program is built on the premise that they will make it incredibly difficult and fail out half of the individuals who get enrolled. (I am not kidding) So even if you survive the first 2 years, you are then given the privilege of being at the bottom of the bell curve in the remaining years.

 

Just to give you some numbers (this is from a few years back). 240 enrolled in first year with high-school average of about 95-96%. After 2nd year, there were like 110 remaining. So if you were ranked around 100 in the initial class of 240, you are then 100 of 110 in 3rd year and at the bottom of the bell curve going forward. Yippee

 

I still remember seeing the EngScis pulling an all nighter at the school lab on a FRIDAY.

 

 

 

And to add, EngSci or not, you will not get into graduate school without a good GPA. I have a few EngSci friends that got screwed over because their GPAs were not as high some in the regular stream for grad school. The program only displays the dozen poster childs each year, you don't see what happens to the other 200.

 

That hasn't really been my experience at all.

 

Although there is some irony in the fact that i'm currently pulling an all-nigher working on our final design report

[LostCause]

That hasn't really been my experience at all.

 

Although there is some irony in the fact that i'm currently pulling an all-nigher working on our final design report

 

My numbers are from 4 years back or so, since I am long removed form undergrad. I am still in contact with at least 30-50 people who went through the program. So unless they have changed the program dramatically in the last few years I would stay the hell away.

 

I know several people who failed out of EngSci, then proceeded to other programs where they achieved 3.90 GPAs and got into med/dental school. If that is not an indicator then I don't know what is. The ironic part is that many of the people who survived the EngSci program have GPAs too low for med/dent/law, while those who got thrown out proceeded to get the necessary GPAs for such professional programs. Talk about a slap in the face.

[sgt.pepper]

Are you Gametyccoon2006 from student awards? If you are interested tissue culturing part of biomed eng. why don't you go to developmental biology specialist at UofT and then do that.

 

http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/calendar/prg_csb.htm

[EliteAssassin23]

Screw U of T life sciences...................

[EliteAssassin23]

lol, im jk, it's just ive heard lots of ppl talk about how hard U of T life sci is and how it is a GPA killer. Any other advice?

[jmlconkl]

The problem with generalizations about "hardness" of programs is that hardness strongly depends on your natural aptitude for, and interest in, the material.

 

For some (myself included) "hard" engineering courses (differential equations, signal theory, electricity and magnetism, control theory) actually take less work to get very high marks in than "easy" courses (e.g., life science courses w/ +++memorization).

 

Some people just have a very difficult time with the mathematical under-pinnings of engineering theory and will do poorly despite large amounts of studying, while for others this comes very naturally. If you are: 1) very strong in mathematics and 2) enjoy applied math and science, it is quite possible to get 90s in many engineering courses with moderate effort (less than it would take me to memorize all the material in a physiology course to get the equivalent mark).

 

I simply point this out because the advice like "don't take engineering if you value your GPA", while perhaps valid for many students, is very misleading if you are actually good at and enjoy engineering.

 

Bottom line (as many others have stated) do what you enjoy and are good at (generally will be the same thing) and you will get better marks than by taking what other people say is "easy".

 

This is completely false. The people who fail out of EngSci still pull all nighters. They get tossed out of EngSci for having 60s and then in the regular stream they start pulling 80s.

 

The program is built on the premise that they will make it incredibly difficult and fail out half of the individuals who get enrolled. (I am not kidding) So even if you survive the first 2 years, you are then given the privilege of being at the bottom of the bell curve in the remaining years.

 

Just to give you some numbers (this is from a few years back). 240 enrolled in first year with high-school average of about 95-96%. After 2nd year, there were like 110 remaining. So if you were ranked around 100 in the initial class of 240, you are then 100 of 110 in 3rd year and at the bottom of the bell curve going forward. Yippee

 

I still remember seeing the EngScis pulling an all nighter at the school lab on a FRIDAY.

 

 

 

And to add, EngSci or not, you will not get into graduate school without a good GPA. I have a few EngSci friends that got screwed over because their GPAs were not as high some in the regular stream for grad school. The program only displays the dozen poster childs each year, you don't see what happens to the other 200.

[EliteAssassin23]

thx guys.............any other advice?