Mark adjustment - How the hell do I do this?

[biomed1010]

LOL. Hmmm...

 

And if that doesn't work, remember what I told you about the army of pre-meds...

[future_doc]

But I am going to ask him what else would I have needed to do to get that 90........ But when I asked for feedback, he said I did excellently.

 

Yeah. It's based on your research and what kind of grades you got in some of the core courses + all of your projects. It's a specialized program.

 

Be careful. As I see it, this approach says, in effect, "I give up and accept the fact that I don't deserve the A+, just let me know how to improve." I think is is exactly what you don't want to do.

 

Let him take this approach, but don't bring him there so the outcome is already predetermined. I believe you need to be gently aggressive, i.e., remind him or prior discussions including this feedback immediately after. Let him know that in other circumstances, you would not even be approaching him - but you need the A+ for your own crebility, credentials and expectations of your new supervisor AND you believed you acheived it b/c ........ And gthen ask him, in the circumstances, if he can kindly review your mark to see if he can justify an A+ which you believe you have earned.

 

Then, b e ready for all his potential reasons why you are not entitled to an A+ and be prepared for rebuttal for each of his conceivable arguments against an A+.

 

Once done, tell himk you rely upon his judgment and integrity, you are grateful to have been able to work with him and learned so much ...... amd all you want and expect is a sober reevaluation by him upon further reflection and you will abide by his decision!

[future_doc]

I don't know how to approach it because any time I tell him he's "wrong" (not like that but in a nice way), he gets at first annoyed but then he settles down and discusses it with me. It's the part where he gets annoyed that is worrying me.

 

He has an ego problem and does not like his authority to be questioned.

 

So, you need to be prepared for his initial emotional reaction, to deal with this sh*t and pass thru it until he settles down.....and don't let him make up his mind then and there, b/c he will use anythni ng in the book to justify himself. He should be painted into a corner, rather asked to reflect upon it all and only then, make a final decision.

 

You will need to sooth his ego when he gets upset, letting him know how great he is, how much you respect him and learnt from him.

 

However, leapy, "business is business" and it is not about him being a nice man, it is about justice. Again, I do not believe you can use words like 'fairness' or even 'justice' b/c he will likely feel under personal attack.

 

Your task is as much diplomatic as it is to deal with the matter substantively.

[DOC_Ma]

Yo Leap, I wanna say something after reading through all the posts (should be studying for my last final!!but oh well:o ).

 

1. There's something wrong with this guy's impression on you trust me I know (provided the mark was not a typo). For those research courses, I know even an 85 is a very mediocre mark, 90 is almost a standard if you do your work. In your case you worked you butt off and he only gave you an 85? He has something against you.

 

2. Some people appear to be down to earth but boy do they back stab! Don't be fooled by their appearances. On your meeting talk to him and more importantly get a sense of what he truly thinks of you. An A is not the end of the world but 1 bad terrible reference letter can cost you a year if not years of effort during your application to med school so making sure you get the right reference is more important.

 

3. From what I read here, I suggest you ditch the prof, and switch to a new one. I know it really sucks tbh after committing so much time but sooner than later your switch will pay back if you ditch him now!

 

4. I am kinda rambling sorry lol I need some sleep now!

 

Good luck!

[future_doc]

Are you suggesting to ditch the new supervisor? As I understand it, the prof becomes history after the next episode on Thursday.

[DOC_Ma]

Are you suggesting to ditch the new supervisor? As I understand it, the prof becomes history after the next episode on Thursday.

 

no I meant the old one. In fact I really meant ditch him all together. Most importantly don't use his reference letter.

[future_doc]

Ah, payback can be horrific! Interesting how you think it out, and you have a serious point for evaluation.

 

Of course, should the prof agree to the A+, I would assume that, in such a case, he is less likely to backstab leapy way down the road, however, should he dig in his heels here, like an elephant, he will never forget!

 

When I needed LORs, I have asked for positive and "strong" letters face to face and if I did not know already how this potential referee felt about me, I would watch the body language and reaction to my question, which gave me the answer regardless of the words flowing.

 

Life is never simple and never as it seems Decisions, decisions .........

[GGGSaint]

 

1. There's something wrong with this guy's impression on you trust me I know (provided the mark was not a typo). For those research courses, I know even an 85 is a very mediocre mark, 90 is almost a standard if you do your work. In your case you worked you butt off and he only gave you an 85? He has something against you.

 

 

Are you serious? You think the prof has something against the OP b/c of giving out an A and not an A+? If leap is at UT I wouldn't be surprised. For a significant portion of professors an A is the highest they will ever go no matter if your work was off the charts.

 

Maybe you are right in your suspicions, but that certainly wouldn't be entirely based on a 90 being "almost a standard if you do your work". Far from it.

 

OP: definitely go by how the conversation with your prof unfolds before deciding whether or not the reference letter would be good or not.

[UTPEOPLE]

Are you serious? You think the prof has something against the OP b/c of giving out an A and not an A+? If leap is at UT I wouldn't be surprised. For a significant portion of professors an A is the highest they will ever go no matter if your work was off the charts.

 

Maybe you are right in your suspicions, but that certainly wouldn't be entirely based on a 90 being "almost a standard if you do your work". Far from it.

 

OP: definitely go by how the conversation with your prof unfolds before deciding whether or not the reference letter would be good or not.

 

I agree... based on standard ROP grades at u of t... an A- is about the guarenteed standard if you did your work properly... but still, with the work that leap87 seems to be doing, she deserves at least a 90.

[leap87]

Yo Leap, I wanna say something after reading through all the posts (should be studying for my last final!!but oh well:o ).

 

1. There's something wrong with this guy's impression on you trust me I know (provided the mark was not a typo). For those research courses, I know even an 85 is a very mediocre mark, 90 is almost a standard if you do your work. In your case you worked you butt off and he only gave you an 85? He has something against you.

 

2. Some people appear to be down to earth but boy do they back stab! Don't be fooled by their appearances. On your meeting talk to him and more importantly get a sense of what he truly thinks of you. An A is not the end of the world but 1 bad terrible reference letter can cost you a year if not years of effort during your application to med school so making sure you get the right reference is more important.

 

3. From what I read here, I suggest you ditch the prof, and switch to a new one. I know it really sucks tbh after committing so much time but sooner than later your switch will pay back if you ditch him now!

 

4. I am kinda rambling sorry lol I need some sleep now!

 

Good luck!

 

Actually, he already wrote a lot of LORs for me. I got to see the most recent one for CIHR and he wrote some incredible stuff in it. I'm serious. The reference letter was jaw dropping one and I highly doubt he would write all of that if he didn't think of me that way. I have worked with him for 2 yrs now and he is not the type of person to write something he doesn't believe - ie he doesn't take bull****. If you're a bull**** student, he will openly tell you.

 

I don't know at which university you go, but some people do end up with an A. While I thought I deserved As before, I clearly went above and beyond this semester. Obviously he has something against me! He took me up and wanted me to do a Masters with him. I said that I want to go to another university and get my Masters with another prof. Since then, he's been a bit different but that's because I'm not his priority anymore. You know what I mean? Some profs are like that and they have every right to be so. However, that shouldn't impact or interfere with his marking of my performance right now. Later on, he can think whatever he wants of me but right now I'm still his student and still doing the work he asks me to.

 

But, as I've mentioned before, he did write an outstanding LOR a month ago. So unless I've done something in the past month, I don't see how his opinion might have changed. Maybe I shouldn't have helped the other undergrad student and now he's angry at me because I did.

 

We're all guessing here. I've worked with him for 2 years and he's not that kind of man. He wants you to propel forward and do better (hence why he gives As - he believes you still need to improve because if you just get an A+, you've reached the end, you're as best as you could possibly be). So he wants to keep you working and striving to do better and more within research. One thing I've learned from him is to look at EVERY side of a research question and to be very skeptical of the papers I have read. If he just gave me an A+ at the beginning, he would have said "Okay leap. Looking at the research question like that is good enough". You might disagree with this, but he works like this and I agree with it. Sometimes I needed him to push me to do some of the incredible stuff I've done and I will always be thankful for that.

 

That being said, I won't drop him as a professor and as a supervisor. I won't create wars where there isn't a war. The only thing I need to find out now is why I received an A and not an A+. I'm sure there is a good reason behind it and I kind of already know (because I thought about it yesterday). I won't burn the bridge that I've worked so hard at maintaining and bringing up. And he also mentioned collaboration on this project when I go to the other university. So, it's not like he's just dropping me.

 

He also wanted me to go to Waterloo for my Masters but I didn't listen to him and didn't want his help in getting in when he offered it. Stupidly. Obviously later on I made connections with some of the profs from Waterloo and managed to impress them myself, but he never made that phone call. So, there were times when I refused his help, when I should have just said "Okay. Sure." I'm not saying this impacted my mark - I'm saying he did everything he could to help me throughout these years and I highly doubt he has something against me. It's more like he believes I can be better than that and he wants me to hit that superiority. And if this is the case, then he has every right to give me an A and not an A+.

[GGGSaint]

It's more like he believes I can be better than that and he wants me to hit that superiority. And if this is the case, then he has every right to give me an A and not an A+.

 

This specifically and your entire post in general: you seem very well adjusted as well as hard working. Hope the A -> A+ works out but if not then it definitely wouldn't be the end of the world. Also very good to hear he's written you excellent LORs before- it seems that your professor is very fair and genuinely cares about you (some may disagree b/c of the mark...but then again it surprises me how easy it is for many to say they simply deserve an A+).

 

In any case, whatever you do end up doing in the future- research and/or med etc. your hard work and a sense of what is right will carry you far. Just my 2 cents. All the best.

[leap87]

This specifically and your entire post in general: you seem very well adjusted as well as hard working. Hope the A -> A+ works out but if not then it definitely wouldn't be the end of the world. Also very good to hear he's written you excellent LORs before- it seems that your professor is very fair and genuinely cares about you (some may disagree b/c of the mark...but then again it surprises me how easy it is for many to say they simply deserve an A+).

 

In any case, whatever you do end up doing in the future- research and/or med etc. your hard work and a sense of what is right will carry you far. Just my 2 cents. All the best.

 

Thanks.

[TheFonz]

Be careful. As I see it, this approach says, in effect, "I give up and accept the fact that I don't deserve the A+, just let me know how to improve." I think is is exactly what you don't want to do.

 

I agree. Personally, I would use this as a last line of offense. That is, if all else fails, then ask him what you can do to improve. By asking this question initially, the prof may interpret this as you accepting his evaluation, and then he can always BS some answer to you on how to improve (how could you call him on that, honestly?). It's difficult because I know this is the line of reasoning that the grad student provided you, so it might hold merit. I would just be straightforward, but that's me.

 

And to add, I did ROP at U of T in my 2nd year (and thesis this year, but obviously have not received a grade yet). I worked my ass off and got a 90 exactly (A+). The other ROP student in our lab got an A-. Course average was an A-, and most people I talked to received an A, so I wouldn't say that you are guaranteed an A or A+ just for doing the requisite work, at least in ROP at U of T.

[leap87]

I agree. Personally, I would use this as a last line of offense. That is, if all else fails, then ask him what you can do to improve. By asking this question initially, the prof may interpret this as you accepting his evaluation, and then he can always BS some answer to you on how to improve (how could you call him on that, honestly?). It's difficult because I know this is the line of reasoning that the grad student provided you, so it might hold merit. I would just be straightforward, but that's me.

 

And to add, I did ROP at U of T in my 2nd year (and thesis this year, but obviously have not received a grade yet). I worked my ass off and got a 90 exactly (A+). The other ROP student in our lab got an A-. Course average was an A-, and most people I talked to received an A, so I wouldn't say that you are guaranteed an A or A+ just for doing the requisite work, at least in ROP at U of T.

 

Yes I get that. But I did go above and beyond. To sum it all up:

1) captured something that no one has done before

2) came up with a method to record something that was not a possibility to do before (and no one has done it)

3) presented at major conferences my findings

4) analyzed all of the data by myself etc.

 

So, that being said, I didn't just do a requisite work because the requisite work is "Write literature review; write methodology; analysis of data and discussion; conclusion" - that's pretty much what you had to do. I went above and beyond to get this project to where it is right now. If that doesn't deserve a higher mark than the rest of the students, then I might as well become God (you know what I mean?!).

 

However I did write in my previous post what I think. I stand by my opinion.

 

Edit: Actually my question is going to be something along the lines of "I was just wondering where I dropped the ball" and see what he says.

[TheFonz]

Sorry leap, but to clarify, the latter part of my post was not directed towards your situation. It was to respond to an earlier post that suggested that A/A+ grades were standard for research courses. Sorry about the confusion.

 

I'd be willing to bet that you deserved the A+.

[leap87]

Sorry leap, but to clarify, the latter part of my post was not directed towards your situation. It was to respond to an earlier post that suggested that A/A+ grades were standard for research courses. Sorry about the confusion.

 

I'd be willing to bet that you deserved the A+.

 

No worries. Haha

[future_doc]

Yes I get that. But I did go above and beyond. To sum it all up:

1) captured something that no one has done before

2) came up with a method to record something that was not a possibility to do before (and no one has done it)

3) presented at major conferences my findings

4) analyzed all of the data by myself etc.

 

So, that being said, I didn't just do a requisite work because the requisite work is "Write literature review; write methodology; analysis of data and discussion; conclusion" - that's pretty much what you had to do. I went above and beyond to get this project to where it is right now. If that doesn't deserve a higher mark than the rest of the students, then I might as well become God (you know what I mean?!).

 

However I did write in my previous post what I think. I stand by my opinion.

 

Edit: Actually my question is going to be something along the lines of "I was just wondering where I dropped the ball" and see what he says.

 

AND

 

I've ripped through semester, pretty much zipping through all of the undergrad students in my lab, teaching them and doing my project at the same time. This mark is only for this semester so I'm only going to speak about this semester. I pretty much did more than the rest of the undergrads in the lab (and I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't do).

 

Now here comes the best part:

Asked the professor what I need to do to get an A+ since he doesn't usually give A+s but I really wanted it so I asked. He basically told me everything I've done in the past months and then said "If that doesn't deserve an A+, I don't know what does" and he told me that as long as my final presentation is good, I will get the A+. So I worked my butt off for the final presentation, putting together graphs, intro, crap I did into mere 13 slides. Presented the research in front of faculty and answered their questions. I presented under 10 minutes (one of the criteria). IMO, didn't drop the ball during the presentation. Really worked my butt off for mine and to fix my fellow colleagues (by analyzing HIS data and making HIS f*cking graphs because he didn't know how to do it).

 

And yes, this mark is VERY important to me. Also, one of the reasons why it upsets me so much is because he pretty much categorized me with all of the other students, when I've clearly done more work. If I didn't and I knew I didn't, I wouldn't be complaining about the mark.

 

I would not begin by asking him where you dropped the ball! This presumes you did drop the ball, and puts you in a defensive position from the gitgo.

 

I think softly, softly, he needs to be put in a defensive position. How? Simple! Put on the table all of the above.....it's clear, factual, concise, you are quoting him and stating the facts as they are.

 

Then, let him have his say..he is on the defensive psychologically. He may not like your approach, but he gotta respect you for standing up for yourself, making your case and, indeed, making a (professional) Presentation.

 

BTW, it's okay to bring Notes, a Summary, so in the heat of the moment you don't forget anything!

 

He will say whatever he will say and you will quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. Take notes if you like w hile he is speaking. You are now effectively in the Supreme Court, no second chances. Do your rebuttal and rebuttal arguments ready before you walk in. Treat it no differently like a scientifc project.

 

AND should it come down to , let me know where I fell down....at the very end and before you walk out, tell him, "I would like the opportunity to summarize the issues in w riting and to send them to you on Monday.", thereby creating one final opportunity for you to have another bite at the apple! And, you will le able to deal with his final summation of how you just did not pass to the A+ level.

 

You need to obtain an A+ on your Presentation no matter what the outcome. No regrets!

[leap87]

AND

 

 

 

I would not begin by asking him where you dropped the ball! This presumes you did drop the ball, and puts you in a defensive position from the gitgo.

 

I think softly, softly, he needs to be put in a defensive position. How? Simple! Put on the table all of the above.....it's clear, factual, concise, you are quoting him and stating the facts as they are.

 

Then, let him have his say..he is on the defensive psychologically. He may not like your approach, but he gotta respect you for standing up for yourself, making your case and, indeed, making a (professional) Presentation.

 

BTW, it's okay to bring Notes, a Summary, so in the heat of the moment you don't forget anything!

 

He will say whatever he will say and you will quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. Take notes if you like w hile he is speaking. You are now effectively in the Supreme Court, no second chances. Do your rebuttal and rebuttal arguments ready before you walk in. Treat it no differently like a scientifc project.

 

AND should it come down to , let me know where I fell down....at the very end and before you walk out, tell him, "I would like the opportunity to summarize the issues in w riting and to send them to you on Monday.", thereby creating one final opportunity for you to have another bite at the apple! And, you will le able to deal with his final summation of how you just did not pass to the A+ level.

 

You need to obtain an A+ on your Presentation no matter what the outcome. No regrets!

 

I get what you're saying f_d and I appreciate it. I'm taking it into account. However, I know him very well and putting him in the position where he has to get defensive is not a good way to go around it because at the end of it all, I won't get A+, I will lose a mentor and I will not have a reference letter.

 

There's no reason to fight with him at all. In fact, it would be beneficial if we create a discussion on what he sees and what I see - that way we can find an agreement which would suit both of us. I don't feel like digging a hole for myself which I would be doing if I put him into a defensive position and making him angry. On the other hand, he doesn't like when someone kisses his ass and I don't like doing it either. In fact, we have the same personality and this is where we're clashing. He's a perfectionist just like I am and he likes to take on a lot of projects at the same time just like I do. And most of the time this leads to being overly stressed out because it's hard to pay attention to everything.

 

At the end of the day, he's one person in my life who has never doubted me. He's given me advice on everything and guided me every step of the way. So, he's dear to me. It would be a dumb thing to fight over one "+" and lose a person who is probably going to be by your side in the future.

 

I'm telling you there's a reason why I got an A and IMO, this is not about what I think - this is what he thinks. So I want to hear what he has to say before I say anything. Hence why I'm going to ask where I dropped the ball. This gives him an opportunity to tell me what he thinks and then I can answer accordingly. He's not the type of person who is not going to listen to me. He will listen and he will hear me out. Whether he gives me an A+ or not though is his decision. Ultimately, everything is in his hands now and putting him in a defensive position is not the way I want to go. I want to discuss this and not throw away 2 yrs of my life and work out the window. Besides, there's much more in this than just a mark. If he was just one of those profs I got to work with for a couple of months, then I really wouldn't care and would push through. But he has mentioned sending me to a couple of great conferences and letting me present my research. This is not something you just throw away because you didn't get an A+.

 

It boils down to: my future or A+? If I can keep both of them in tact, then great. If not, I'd rather just drop the whole A+ thing and have a bright future.

 

Edit: From past experiences I've learned a couple of things: a) never to be pushy because you won't accomplish much; never to be rude even if the other person is a jerk towards you - pay them back with kindness; c) some things you should just let go because in the grand scheme of things they're not worth it.

 

This is one of those sticky situations where I need to listen to my gut and not accumulation of disappointment. I am disappointed but my gut is telling me to chill and just take it one step at a time.

[future_doc]

I hear yah, you are one smart lady, sure you are not a psychologist or psychiatrist?

 

Your mind is clear, you know your priorities and you know how to handle the situation. Good luck!

[leap87]

I hear yah, you are one smart lady, sure you are not a psychologist or psychiatrist?

 

Your mind is clear, you know your priorities and you know how to handle the situation. Good luck!

 

Thanks. It took me one whole day to get through the bottom of my thoughts. Haha. You know how they say: when you're unsure how to react, just sleep on it.

[DOC_Ma]

Actually, he already wrote a lot of LORs for me. I got to see the most recent one for CIHR and he wrote some incredible stuff in it. I'm serious. The reference letter was jaw dropping one and I highly doubt he would write all of that if he didn't think of me that way. I have worked with him for 2 yrs now and he is not the type of person to write something he doesn't believe - ie he doesn't take bull****. If you're a bull**** student, he will openly tell you.

 

I don't know at which university you go, but some people do end up with an A. While I thought I deserved As before, I clearly went above and beyond this semester. Obviously he has something against me! He took me up and wanted me to do a Masters with him. I said that I want to go to another university and get my Masters with another prof. Since then, he's been a bit different but that's because I'm not his priority anymore. You know what I mean? Some profs are like that and they have every right to be so. However, that shouldn't impact or interfere with his marking of my performance right now. Later on, he can think whatever he wants of me but right now I'm still his student and still doing the work he asks me to.

 

But, as I've mentioned before, he did write an outstanding LOR a month ago. So unless I've done something in the past month, I don't see how his opinion might have changed. Maybe I shouldn't have helped the other undergrad student and now he's angry at me because I did.

 

We're all guessing here. I've worked with him for 2 years and he's not that kind of man. He wants you to propel forward and do better (hence why he gives As - he believes you still need to improve because if you just get an A+, you've reached the end, you're as best as you could possibly be). So he wants to keep you working and striving to do better and more within research. One thing I've learned from him is to look at EVERY side of a research question and to be very skeptical of the papers I have read. If he just gave me an A+ at the beginning, he would have said "Okay leap. Looking at the research question like that is good enough". You might disagree with this, but he works like this and I agree with it. Sometimes I needed him to push me to do some of the incredible stuff I've done and I will always be thankful for that.

 

That being said, I won't drop him as a professor and as a supervisor. I won't create wars where there isn't a war. The only thing I need to find out now is why I received an A and not an A+. I'm sure there is a good reason behind it and I kind of already know (because I thought about it yesterday). I won't burn the bridge that I've worked so hard at maintaining and bringing up. And he also mentioned collaboration on this project when I go to the other university. So, it's not like he's just dropping me.

 

He also wanted me to go to Waterloo for my Masters but I didn't listen to him and didn't want his help in getting in when he offered it. Stupidly. Obviously later on I made connections with some of the profs from Waterloo and managed to impress them myself, but he never made that phone call. So, there were times when I refused his help, when I should have just said "Okay. Sure." I'm not saying this impacted my mark - I'm saying he did everything he could to help me throughout these years and I highly doubt he has something against me. It's more like he believes I can be better than that and he wants me to hit that superiority. And if this is the case, then he has every right to give me an A and not an A+.

 

Fair enough

[leap87]

O.....M......G..........

 

My professor fixed my mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Without me going to talk with him!!!!!! I was supposed to go talk with him tomorrow.... O........M..............G.....................

 

 

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I knew I was wrong. I knew it!!!! I knew it was something else (ie a mistake or something). WHAT A DAAAAAAY!

 

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone. :D

[jcman]

I think it's safe to say that your professor is a premed and saw your posts.

[future_doc]

O.....M......G..........

 

My professor fixed my mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Without me going to talk with him!!!!!! I was supposed to go talk with him tomorrow.... O........M..............G.....................

 

 

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I knew I was wrong. I knew it!!!! I knew it was something else (ie a mistake or something). WHAT A DAAAAAAY!

 

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone.

 

 

Congrats - he was testing you!

 

And always be prepared. The exercise you undertook had to happen sos that you were ready. Why not see him tomorrow anyhow and go through it all, so all this time and effort shall not have been wasted.

[TheFonz]

lol a bit anticlimactic no?

 

Glad you got it fixed though. Congrats