RN to MD it's a long road... Feedback?!?!

[jmm29]

Okay so here's the deal...

 

I'm 22 years old, just graduated University of Alberta with my first degree. Now I'm working in the ER as a Registered Nurse. I didn't realize med school as an option/see my own potential until my last few years of school and in working in emerg.

 

Nursing school is a really tedious way of getting into Med School due to its subjective marking and lack of prereqs. If/when I ever get accepted (assuming my first application was accepted - ambitious I know..) I'll be 26.

 

Here are my stats:

First Year 2.2

Second Year GPA 3.1

Third Year GPA 3.5

Fourth Year GPA 3.3

 

I'm thinking that my only real option is to do another undergrad degree (hopefully a specialization degree... in pharmacology although I'd LOVE to do physiology (honors) - I'm not sure my gpa will allow me to do so unless I do some real begging) which will take AT MINIMUM 2 fulltime 30 credit academic years as well as a half year and four courses during each spring/summer semester.

 

I'm okay with all this, I'm prepared to do the work, and commit myself. I understand the world owes me nothing, but I owe myself. I'll set the highest standards and reach them. Pharmacology/Physiology would benefit my current career and my backup plan as Nurse Practioner.. but I'm not okay with just settling. I LOVE nursing... but the scope of knowledge and the decision making isn't all that I'd hoped it to be. I want to be more of a patient advocate, and hold a bigger leadership role on the team.

 

My plan includes completing the prereqs (bio, chem, ochem, physics, stats, and biochem) within the first year.. picking my courses to reflect my specialization for the spring/summer and second year, writing my MCAT following the second year and applying, followed by more spring/summer courses and finishing up the last few courses in the fall of the third year while working, and volunteering/waiting for interviews and feedback.

 

I am taking this year off, and have plans motivated by my goal. I want to begin to self study for the MCAT, I know a renowned neurologist who works with ALS patients excited to take me in with her as my mentor and start researching/volunteering with her as well as working and paying down some of my student loans so I can apply for more the following year (I already owe $47,000) eek! I also want to take ACLS, PALS and as many recognized trauma room courses as I can to show my commitment, and love for medicine (will anyone care about this? will it count?)

 

Is this a realistic plan, or are my previous grades too far gone to fix? HONEST opinions, and suggestions please. Not that if anyone tells me "no", I'll quit, but some suggestions and critical feedback are fully welcome!

 

Oh. and the difference between my motivation now, and before?? The classes I got A's in were the ones where we were sat down and lectured to, given assignments due back with a real marking criteria! Gimme a textbook to read over a guessing game anyday.. I did not enjoy the subjective courses where you kiss your preceptor's butt and hope like hell you said the magic words - I don't care if med is like that, I just need to get IN. I have learned how to study, learned how to learn, and want this more than ever. More that just a means to an end.

 

Thanks to all who may read and respond.

[kittykat]

Well you have lots of motivation so thats a great start. The only big problem I see is that you won't complete your prereqs in the time frame you gave because all the chems are prereqs for one another... for example you need to take General Chem 1 before GChem2, and GChem 2 before Organic Chem1 and Organic Chem 1 before OChem2 and OChem 2 before your first Biochem and then your first biochem before your second bio. So that in itself will take 6 semesters. I'm not sure there is anyways around it since they build on one another but I'm not sure what schools and what not you are thinking of! If it's your dream go for it! You are still young and have lots of time although it may not feel like it . The other nice thing about your situation is that you have money coming in and a backup career so you are all good ! Good luck!

[jmm29]

Well you have lots of motivation so thats a great start. The only big problem I see is that you won't complete your prereqs in the time frame you gave because all the chems are prereqs for one another... for example you need to take General Chem 1 before GChem2, and GChem 2 before Organic Chem1 and Organic Chem 1 before OChem2 and OChem 2 before your first Biochem and then your first biochem before your second bio. So that in itself will take 6 semesters. I'm not sure there is anyways around it since they build on one another but I'm not sure what schools and what not you are thinking of! If it's your dream go for it! You are still young and have lots of time although it may not feel like it . The other nice thing about your situation is that you have money coming in and a backup career so you are all good ! Good luck!

 

It looks to me that you can do all of your Chems at the U of A in the first year (General and Organic). But you're right.. I'd have to do all my Chems and Bios first year and Biochem the following spring/summer or even second year. Good catch!

 

dflakjsdlfkasdlk looks like I'll need a full year to figure out all the rules and timetabling.

 

Schools I'm looking at: UofA and UofC obviously, since I'm an Alberta resident (although it's likely my with my current GPA that my cGPA won't be enough to hammer the heck out of UofA but I may as well apply since I live here). I am also considering the Ontario schools, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and I'm reading more on UBC. I'll likely be banking on the "best two years" and "last two years" rules to get in. Short of in province, I have no preference. I'm hoping loans will help pave the way if I'm accepted, should I be so blessed

 

Money coming in???? notsomuch!!! When I'm back in school I'm not sure how much I'll be able to work - if at all. I AM nervous about all the lost earnings that will come with the commitment to school, but so be it I guess.

 

Any more suggestions?!

[future_doc]

You mention spring/summer and not Sept-May which I understand is what the med schools expect. Perhaps others who know can comment about wehther a fullcourse load Jan/Aug for these 2 semesters will be acceptable to med schools. Also, are you planning to take any courses by Distance Ed?

[jmm29]

You mention spring/summer and not Sept-May which I understand is what the med schools expect. Perhaps others who know can comment about wehther a fullcourse load Jan/Aug for these 2 semesters will be acceptable to med schools. Also, are you planning to take any courses by Distance Ed?

 

Fall '11/Winter '12 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '12 (12 Credits)

Fall '12/Winter '13 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '13 (12 Credits)

Fall '13 (15 Credits)

 

Total 99 Credits (plus what I have that can transfer) to give me enough to finish a second degree in 2.5 years and have two full time years (Sept-May)

 

Yes?

[DXO]

jmm29 - I recommend that you take your 1st year general chemistry and biology by distance ed in your current year off so that you can do o-chem and biochem in the time frame you planned. You can take distance ed through Athabasca and will be able to complete the courses in as little time as you want, or in as much time as a year (given that you apply for an extension). If you want any more info on the distance education option, PM me.

[TonesRN]

Sent you a PM...

[future_doc]

Fall '11/Winter '12 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '12 (12 Credits)

Fall '12/Winter '13 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '13 (12 Credits)

Fall '13 (15 Credits)

 

Total 99 Credits (plus what I have that can transfer) to give me enough to finish a second degree in 2.5 years and have two full time years (Sept-May)

 

Yes?

 

Burn-out!!

 

And third year is not a normal courseload during normal academic year. And, then you can have 3 summers and also, you have the excellent suggestion of D.E. too.

[amh]

Fall '11/Winter '12 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '12 (12 Credits)

Fall '12/Winter '13 (30 Credits)

Spring/Summer '13 (12 Credits)

Fall '13 (15 Credits)

 

Total 99 Credits (plus what I have that can transfer) to give me enough to finish a second degree in 2.5 years and have two full time years (Sept-May)

 

Yes?

 

I would talk to a student advisor about the full course load requirement. Also, if I remember correctly, the University of Alberta (for medicine) does not look at summer courses even if your pre-reqs were done over the summer, so make sure you look into that.

[future_doc]

The devil is in the details.

[jmm29]

Three years of fulltime 30 credits, and perhaps 9 in distance education. Food for thought for sure!! Full summers off to work.. sleep? volunteer... And I could apply after second year for practice.. and again after third year for real... and then a year after I'm done with everything I have left in me.. and go from there.

[bloh]

OR you could just stick with nursing. You already love it and are deep-knee in debt. By the time you are done and in medschool, your debt would probably be around 100,000 (conservative guess). Throw in another 150-200k from medical school + interest (most of your medschool debt would come from LOC as you'd be close to the national loan cap) and you be looking at an insurmountable debt load.

 

By then you will be ~30ish and the itch to find a partner and settle down would probably get very annoying and may impact your quality of life drastically. What gender are you? This is even worse if you happen to be a female.

 

It's somewhat easier to recommend and push someone towards medicine when they are in a far-left field (ironically). You are already in a hospital and working so it's hard for me to suggest you push yourself for such a tiny change of practice at such a large, quantifiable expense.

 

Why not nurse practitioner?

 

Just something to think about....

[ubcredfox]

I would have to agree. It just doesn't make financial sense at all. If you're not happy with nursing, do some agency work now, work in some hell-hole communities where you get paid bigger bucks, save up cash and retire in a few years. Why bother with medicine? You gain all the responsibility, while losing a generally better lifestyle, very decent pay, and many many many nights sleep.

[igotacookie]

im not sure what Mattg means, but UofA will allow you to finish your pre-reqs over the summer. However, they do not count towards your cGPA, And a lot of students take advantage of this by taking their weaker disciplines during the summer (ie. English).

 

Good luck, there's lots of ex-nurses in med school. Just be prepared to put in the time... 2-3 years of undergrad... 3-4 years med school... 2-6 years residency... before you become the attending that makes the decisions.

[jmm29]

OR you could just stick with nursing. You already love it and are deep-knee in debt. By the time you are done and in medschool, your debt would probably be around 100,000 (conservative guess). It's somewhat easier to recommend and push someone towards medicine when they are in a far-left field (ironically). You are already in a hospital and working so it's hard for me to suggest you push yourself for such a tiny change of practice at such a large, quantifiable expense. Why not nurse practitioner?

 

I'm a little unsure of how to respond to this. I'm not sure if this is a challenge, or if you are really suggesting I don't bother.

 

I COULD just stick with nursing, you're right. Honestly, I was enrolled to return to school this year, and pulled out late August. I was processing everything that you had suggested - my age, getting married, having kids (yes I'm female) my already stable career, my debt...etc. I decided that maybe it (medschool) just wasn't meant to be, and that I could be happy working as a full time RN with sights on becoming an NP one day. However as soon as I pulled out of school, I realized more than ever how badly I wanted it.

 

Sure I have a job in the medical field - so do RT's/OT's/PT's.. sure I have accumulated some debt... but why settle. I've read the threads on the forum and seen the anger/confusion over NPs' scope encrouching on that of physicians', and how ridiculous it is to go to med school for 4 years only to be working along side an NP. If my goal is to become a Physician.. NP is not a back-alley route to the same-but-different profession.

 

The change in practice between RN and MD.. is huge btw - it's not "tiny", I'm shocked you would mention that, and I'm sure you don't believe it.

 

I've been pushing the numbers.. taking all this advice into consideration (each day my plan evolves). If I take three full years to finish this degree, I'll have summers, the odd weekend, and breaks to work (at $32/hr +). I can do this UG degree and end up with no/minimal extra debt. Besides that, people my age are taking out 40 year morgages to own homes... they want to settle down, I want an education (How is that different?? Debt is debt!!).

 

So if money isn't a real issue, and I slow down with the second degree and can have a bit of a life, and have found that there really is nothing I want more than to reach this dream.. I honestly cannot back down. I want kids someday - no time soon. I'd like to meet my husband someday.. but I'm not ready to settle down now.

 

If your advice was pure, and you wanted to point out to me areas I may have overlooked - I appreciate your sincerity.

 

The advice I'm looking for is more towards grades, gpa, timetabling... that sort of stuff. Not whether I have abandonned all common sense for this goal, but thanks for your insight - really

 

This being my first post - I'm appreciative of all the responses and pms thus far.

[jmm29]

Here's what I have planned as of today:

 

This year take two distance education courses (through Athabasca), and one summer session. Continue volunteering, and get into the researching scene, work and get more medical experience, pay off some debt/save, continue to research potential schools AND their rules (likely all the ones who will only look at my second degree, plus Alberta schools).

 

 

Next fall enroll with goal of a degree with Specialization in Pharmacology (pharmacology to make me happy/one of my strengths, get all my prereqs I don't have, and the specialization for Western - just in case) ***Full time 30 credit course load over three years.

 

*Not sure how the MCAT will go.. cross that bridge when I get there, But I do have a book, so I can start to self study.

 

*ECs

• I'm part of an education team at work, do education sessions/lectures once a month for ER staff
  
• Keep up to date with trauma room courses: Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS) Trauma Nurse Core Course (TNCC) Pediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS) Emergency Nursing Pediatric Course (ENPC) (They aren't required but I want them since I'll be working for the next three years and to show my commitment to medicine and continuing competencies - will adcoms care???)
  
• I volunteer at my old elementary school as a nurse once a month
  
• Participate yearly with orientation activities on campus
  
• Volunteer with the Youth Emergency Shelter, Women's Emergency Accomadation Shelter, as well as with Streetworks Edmonton (Harm reduction for sex trade workers, and IV drug users) **the hospital I work in is inner city, we treat a lot of patients who are homeless and/or have addiction issues ** one of my passions
  
• SHINE Clinic - clinic run by med students/nursing students etc on campus
   
  PLUS a bunch of travelling that has taken me all over the world. I've met some amazing people (celebs included), and been invited to the Oprah show because of it. Currently am writing a book, and meeting with an editor, although I probably won't include that - but it makes for interesting conversation
   
  

*Research at the ALS clinic - my mom had ALS, and I've been volunteering with the clinic for 5 years now.. another passion of mine

*Harass some of the docs I work with to get in on their research - there is LOTS floating around

 

*Letters of Reference

One from the Neurologist at the ALS Clinic, and the rest probably from school professors

 

 

Any more suggestions?

[Wayward son]

I would have to agree. It just doesn't make financial sense at all.

 

People should not become MDs because it makes financial sense. They should be doing it because they want to be a doctor despite being fully aware of the financial, physical and mental hardships they will face to get there.

 

Good luck jmm29!

[bloh]

I think the issue I have with your decisions JM is that you just graduated. If you have worked as an RN for several years and have really decided that being a physician is something you really wanted, then sure go right ahead. But you barely put your head through the door - how can you really know?

 

Is it not worth due diligence before you go on a path that's going to easily overtake the next 10 years of your life?

 

It's different when a math/business major formulates this thread. It's easier to encourage them because they are so far from medicine and may as well go for the full monty, if you will.

 

I was in a similar situation like you. I started graduate school at 22 thinking I have all the freaking time in the world. Fast forward a few years and I'm sitting there defending my masters and just wanting everything to be over with. It really does come that suddenly. I know its difficult to believe but ideologies can change quickly.

[kittykat]

I think the issue I have with your decisions JM is that you just graduated. If you have worked as an RN for several years and have really decided that being a physician is something you really wanted, then sure go right ahead. But you barely put your head through the door - how can you really know?

 

I'm really not trying to start anything but I would say a good majority of med students go into med school right after undergrad (which their degree often isn't in a health related profession ie. RN, RT, the other RT etc.) and by this logic they shouldn't go into med either because how do they know its a good path for them? If they have no work-related health care experience how do they know they are making a good decision (on your logic as you are suggesting that she needs to work as an RN for a couple years to know that medicine is for her)?

 

The poster has had lots of health care related experience and with a family member who has ALS she has gained more experience than most people applying to med school on so many levels. What does her financial situation have to do with anything? If she wants to go for it and can make it work (she is making great money as an RN) who are we to judge? There are so many people who go into med with tons of debt.

 

I'm sorry that you have had to listen to this advice. It's quite sad when people discourage others from their dreams. I know I'm stepping on people's toes here, but how would you feel if someone discouraged you based on your financial situation and what your career is at the moment. The worst component of the comment is that it her situation is worse if she is a woman... really? There are tons of people who choose med as a second career and there is nothing wrong with it. Everyone gets to choose their priorities and like she said she wants to make an investment into her education...

[kittykat]

I sent you a private message JM!

[Julie]

The worst component of the comment is that it her situation is worse if she is a woman... really? There are tons of people who choose med as a second career and there is nothing wrong with it. Everyone gets to choose their priorities and like she said she wants to make an investment into her education...

 

Well, I kind of agree with part of this, but also see the poster's point. As a woman currently in medical school, I can attest that it's very different for us if we intend on having kids. Is it possible - of course. Is it a bad idea? - I don't think so. Some people do it every year and manage just fine. But I do think it's more difficult than it is for the guys, and think that this has to be an educated decision. If the poster is 22 now and 26 by the time she starts med (and possibly 27 or 28, depending on luck & how things go), that means at least 30-ish by the time she starts residency and possibly 35 by the time it ends. For a guy, having kids over 35 isn't so much of an issue, but for girls it can be. Having kids during residency is totally possible (especially if your dept load is reasonable and financial situation permits it) but still, guys don't have to be pregnant if they have a kid during residency, with all that comes with it (fatigue, nausea, being put on bedrest if there's a problem)... so it's all very different. I'm not saying it's easy for guys either, of course.

 

So by no means would I try to discourage the poster of following her dreams. But I do think it was a good point and that it's a "pensez-y bien" as we would say in french : something that really needs to be considered, and not just dismissed in a second because you're not ready to have kids now. It's true that 30 will hit fast and at that age, everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) around you starts to have kids. Sometimes priorities change and being still in school at may or may not become an issue. I find that you almost have to have decided that it will be ok for you to put your career first, and unless you choose to have kids during med school (with all that that implies), accept that fertility issues, etc., may even mean that your chances of having kids won't be quite as great as it otherwise might have been. I may sound overly dramatic, but really it's something girls in my class discuss quite often. It's a very relevant issue...

[ploughboy]

....I decided that maybe it (medschool) just wasn't meant to be, and that I could be happy working as a full time RN with sights on becoming an NP one day. However as soon as I pulled out of school, I realized more than ever how badly I wanted it... have found that there really is nothing I want more than to reach this dream.. I honestly cannot back down...

 

Do it. You don't want to be 80 years old and looking back on your life going "shoulda, coulda, woulda"

[hking03]

I'm going to chime in on this topic because I'm a guy who has an opinion...

 

I'd say that if the OP wants to get into med school then she should go for it, provided she has done the research and knows the path will be a long one. I wish her luck with it and have a feeling we will be seeing her in a few years with a good story to tell.

 

As for the pregnancy issue I'm going to toss my two cents in... I think that if having children is a priority for the OP wants to take that next step then she should be able to do it... I was reading a blog by a current physician (Dr. Couz) who gave birth during her 3rd year of residency and took her mat leave (I think it was pretty short) and went back to finish her residency year... sure she said it was difficult, but she did it and from what I read the family didn't suffer.

 

There is no set way to get into med school, no set way to finish your residency and no set way to live life as a physician... do what's right for you and good luck!

 

Also, if you are writing a book and/or have an opportunity to get on the Oprah show I would do it and reference it on your med school application... that's a life experience that not many people can bring up.

 

Again, Good luck!

[RN2MD]

Hey,

I'm in the same boat...sort of. I'm in my final year of my BScN program, have been working as an RPN in Mental Health for a few years. I have a previous BA as well, where my cGPA was not stellar to say the least....complete lack of maturity. My BScN upon graduation should be about 3.8, which will make me competitive with some Cdn schools but not all. I also don't have all the pre-reqs.

With respect to pre-reqs, the schools don't accept your nursing sciences (for the most part).

It is a long process, and in Canada, every medical school as different ways of calculating your gpa. Your gpa does sound a little on the low side though. The best thing I can suggest is to do another undergrad. If you really want really want to do meds, it's probably your best option. You could do your MSN/NP, but they still seem to give more weight to your undergrad. Do it in something you think you're really passionate about. Be aware also that many schools who have different gpa calculating methods (ie. UWO, Queen's) require FULL-TIME courload for each of these years in your 2nd undergrad. What constitutes full-time status, also differs from school to school.

For some schools, you'll likely already have some of the pre-reqs as nursing school requires you to do some humanities & social sciences. So in your 2nd degree, you may only have to pick up a bio course, physical sciences course (Queen's),

Ultimately,you're probably not going to apply to all Cdn med schools, so figure out the ones that you're more likely to meet the requirements in a few years & focus your energies on developing the aspects needed for these schools.

I'm going to post a chart, for those interested, as I've recently emailed 8 Canadian med schools, regarding how they calculate gpas if you have second degrees, whether or not full-time status is requires (and how do they define full-time), etc. I'm sure most of this info is out on this website, but it's good to get it all in in one post.

Stay focused on your passion and you can do it!. And don't worry about being older. I just read that Roberta Bondar, the first Canadian woman into space, went to med school at 28yrs and graduated at 31 from Mac. She did her residency in neurology. So age means nothing. It may make it more difficult in some aspects, but the maturity you will be going into the program with will help you IMMENSELY to be successfull.

All the best,

[NursingStudent]

RN2MD....great points. Yeah could you please post that because I want to look into that as well.

Thanks