How much of a long shot am I for US MD

[Rwethereyet]

thanks for the help, guys

[Rwethereyet]

I should add that I would attend ANY US MD school in a heartbeat. I will find the funds somehow.

 

I was wondering if pursuing a second undergrad might be worth it - for Canadian schools it might because of GPA forgiveness / recent credit weighting. But it is not worth it imo due to the nature of the application process in Canada (way more qualified students with much higher stats applying repeatedly.)

 

Is there a similar weighting for certain US MD schools? If not, a second degree or post-bacc (I should say post-MSc/bacc) might not do anything substantial for my cGPA.

 

MCAT re-write perhaps? I'm willing to do what it takes... only if I've got a realistic shot in the end.

[deathvvv]

Hey

 

I think you definitely have a shot for US schools, but you need to work on that GPA. I am not sure how much your GPA will change, but will another year of undergrad push it over the 3.5 mark? I got into a US Med school with a 3.6/30. With a higher MCAT, I think you definitely have a shot! A warning though, Wayne State/Michigan States are state schools and give much greater preferences to in state applicants. Therefore, for out of state (especially Canadians) to get interviews there, your stats should definitely be higher than that average accepted student (you can find those on the website). Unlike Canadian schools, you dont get much brownie points for doing masters. However, publications/conference abstracts are good extracurriculars to put on AMCAS/discuss during the interview.

 

In summary, I think you have an outside (but not impossible) shot of applying to US schools with a ~3.5/32. But I would consider post bac programs/second degree/ extra year of undergrad to get your GPA over 3.5.

 

Good luck:)

[Dice]

You definitely have a realistic shot. The key will be to apply early (like first week in June) and to a lot of schools. One thing I've learned this cycle is that you never know which ones will interview you and which ones will randomly reject you. The Master's will help if you sell it well like deathvvv said, but it will not "make up" for undergrad gpa. Your gpa could definitely go up on the AMCAS scale. You might also be able to manipulate your science gpa by selectively designating courses as science or non-science. A higher MCAT would help, but only re-write if you're sure you can improve.

 

Don't worry about the verifiers. You just need a name/title. The app doesn't even ask you for addresses or phone numbers.

 

Good luck!

[GGGSaint]

You definitely have a realistic shot. The key will be to apply early (like first week in June) and to a lot of schools. One thing I've learned this cycle is that you never know which ones will interview you and which ones will randomly reject you. The Master's will help if you sell it well like deathvvv said, but it will not "make up" for undergrad gpa. Your gpa could definitely go up on the AMCAS scale. You might also be able to manipulate your science gpa by selectively designating courses as science or non-science. A higher MCAT would help, but only re-write if you're sure you can improve.

 

Don't worry about the verifiers. You just need a name/title. The app doesn't even ask you for addresses or phone numbers.

 

Good luck!

 

Good advice guys. Just one note on the statement in bold: apparently AMCAS is changing this for the upcoming cycle. Applicants will need to enter verifier information (LizzyM started a new thread about this on SDN). Just an FYI OP.

[drp]

Whatever you do, apply early. I did not write the MCAT until September, and applied to 10 US schools in November with a 3.99 AMCAS GPA and 38 MCAT. I only got 2 interviews and no acceptances. US schools are just as tough to get into!

[Dice]

Good advice guys. Just one note on the statement in bold: apparently AMCAS is changing this for the upcoming cycle. Applicants will need to enter verifier information (LizzyM started a new thread about this on SDN). Just an FYI OP.

 

Yeah, I just saw that on SDN too! Good call. I don't like that they're making the activity descriptions shorter, or the 3 most meaningful activities

[GGGSaint]

Whatever you do, apply early. I did not write the MCAT until September, and applied to 10 US schools in November with a 3.99 AMCAS GPA and 38 MCAT. I only got 2 interviews and no acceptances. US schools are just as tough to get into!

 

Definitely tough. Made even tougher because of the relatively late app though. Whatever the case, your numbers are more than good enough for Canada (unless you want the US specifically since you're a dual citizen). Sorry to hear about the UCSD rejection dotkathunda .

 

Yeah, I just saw that on SDN too! Good call. I don't like that they're making the activity descriptions shorter, or the 3 most meaningful activities

 

++. Agree completely. Very glad this wasn't the case for our cycle. Especially the picking your most meaningful activities tidbit. Whichever ECs I choose to put down on any application are obviously ones I think are essential. Prioritizing some over others would have been a huge pain for me.

[Rwethereyet]

Thanks for the help, guys

[Rwethereyet]

thanks for the help, guys

[Mashmetoo]

Thanks for all the honest replies and comments.

 

I'm going to be realistic - after some more research, I've come to the conclusion that my chances, even if I apply early, aren't too good.

 

However, I'll be damned if I'm going to let a few years of sub-par gpa (medical reasons) crush my dreams of becoming a doctor.

 

I'm thinking I've got a decent shot at a US DO admission. And quite frankly, after a bit of research, I'm becoming more and more convinced that their philosophical view of medicine is more in line with mine than those of the allopathic stream (though to me it really doesn't matter as long as I get a shot at practicing as a psychiatrist). I'm fine with not being able to come back for a very long time - as long as the city I end up in (or town) has at least a college-level hockey team I could root for.

 

I'll keep you guys updated.

 

aha, cool change of heart . I'll say this though, with your current scores (with no MCAT rewrite), and assuming you apply in June and you get all the LORs, you are basically guaranteed a spot in a DO school somewhere for the class of 2016.

[Rwethereyet]

Ah, hi Mashmetoo. I was hoping my posts on here would grab your attention. How is first year at COMP?

 

I've done a lot of research in the SDN DO forums, and was all but ready to apply.

 

Then the uncertainty hit me... I realized that although I wouldn't mind attending school in the States... I would definitely like to return to BC down the road... sooner rather than later. I'm just not convinced that this is a likelihood if I were to pursue DO.

 

I understand that I'd have to do an ACGME residency and that the COMLEX and USMLE are both accepted by BC towards full licensure as a DO. Easier said than done, no? I mean... these steps just determine eligibility - whether or not I would actually be able to practice as a DO in BC is far from certain I assume.

[DubZteR]

definitely apply EARLY as others have mentioned. I can't stress how important timing is for US schools.

 

A 32Q is a good MCAT score but when combined with your current GPA and lack of US citizenship, it may put you at a disadvantage. If you can bump up your MCAT to a 35+ and apply early, with your current GPA, you should get some interviews

[Mashmetoo]

Ah, hi Mashmetoo. I was hoping my posts on here would grab your attention. How is first year at COMP?

 

I've done a lot of research in the SDN DO forums, and was all but ready to apply.

 

Then the uncertainty hit me... I realized that although I wouldn't mind attending school in the States... I would definitely like to return to BC down the road... sooner rather than later. I'm just not convinced that this is a likelihood if I were to pursue DO.

 

I understand that I'd have to do an ACGME residency and that the COMLEX and USMLE are both accepted by BC towards full licensure as a DO. Easier said than done, no? I mean... these steps just determine eligibility - whether or not I would actually be able to practice as a DO in BC is far from certain I assume.

 

Here's what Moo wrote about coming back to Canada (BC) as a DO. The original thread was deleted, but I saved a copy of this:

 

Going the DO route is definitely not a deathknell for returning to Canada.

 

If you really want to return to Canada after and don't mind doing FP, the DO route is perfectly reasonable.

 

Why? Worst case is, you would do your residency in the US (a J1 is no problem since you can return to Canada after you graduate). After you pass your US FP boards, you are essentially guaranteed your CCFP (reciprocity agreement). Then, of course you are eligible to practice, at least in BC and ON. Other provinces may or may not recognize the DO degree-check. Only disadvantage is the US FP programs are 3 years as compared to 2 here. But I do think that extra year helps a lot and makes you better prepared to practice medicine, especially if you're planning on doing rural. In fact, if you don't know whether you want to return to Canada or not, it would be better to just do your residency in the US because if you do your residency in Canada, it's only 2 years and you may have trouble being eligible for the US boards. This in turn makes it difficult to get a job with a major employer (like Kaiser) and getting insurance reimbursements.

 

When I was doing a rotation in Victoria and moonlighting there, I met a new DO graduate, who did her FP residency in the US and got licensed fully in BC. Not a hitch.

 

A US MD degree is essentially equal to a Canadian MD if you want to apply for residency. I applied for FP and anesthesia and experienced no discrimination in any of my interviews in Canada for either specialty. (I ultimately chose FP over anesthesia.)

 

I've no idea why you are not convinced, my research tells me that BC is the easiest Canadian province to go back home to (as a DO). In fact, I have a plan in the works to apply and maybe end up in BC somewhere down the road. Also, my experience is that DOs are thriving in BC - evidenced by their COA-BC chapter website. You can certainly apply for any residency in BC along with USMDs and CMGs, so that road is wide open to you. You can also register with the BC licensing authorities (after an appropriate US ACGME residency) provided you have the necessary board exams (i.e., COMLEX, USMLEs, or MCCEE+MCCQE) - JUST like what Canadian USMDs have to go through if they want back into BC (only exception is that you have to write the MCCEE in addition to the MCCQE). Basically what I'm saying is that in BC, your DO is equivalent to the MD in terms of licensing and residency application. Why you are skeptical that you can't come back to BC is beyond me. And I'm from Ontario.

[Rwethereyet]

Off the COA website today:

 

Examination requirements

 

The Medical Council of Canada prepares the examinations required by all physicians for licensure in Canada. The College of Physicians and Surgeons for the province you wish to register can provide you with the specific examinations required. USMLE, or COMLEX, may be accepted in lieu of the MCC examinations in some provinces. Please consult with the registrar of the specific provincial college of interest.

 

From a document I found detailing the practice of osteopathic medicine in Canada:

 

British Columbia:

There are two pathways for D.O. registration in British Columbia. The first recognizes the COMLEX examinations and two years of AOA certified post-graduate training. The D.O. has a limited license, and is restricted to a practice of musculoskeletal medicine. This pathway is primarily intended for the D.O. that wishes to establish an OMT focused practice. The second pathway requires completion of the MCC, COMLEX, USMLE, FLEX, or NBME examinations and two years of a ACGME residency program. The D.O. will then receive an unrestricted license.

 

Alberta:

The D.O. candidate is required to complete the MCC, COMLEX, or USMLE examinations. AOA certified residencies are recognized.

 

(http://www.osteopathic.ca/Documents/Osteopathic%20Practice%20in%20Canada.doc)

 

Doesn't this mean that:

1.) The MCCEE and MCCQE are not necessary (BC requires completion of one of MCC, COMLEX, USMLE, FLEX, or NBME)

 

2.) Full licensure in Alberta, unlike BC, can be obtained also by doing an AOA residency

 

- These are contradictory to what I've heard, but I'm going to assume that they've made recent changes to the rules.

[Mashmetoo]

Off the COA website today:

 

Examination requirements

 

The Medical Council of Canada prepares the examinations required by all physicians for licensure in Canada. The College of Physicians and Surgeons for the province you wish to register can provide you with the specific examinations required. USMLE, or COMLEX, may be accepted in lieu of the MCC examinations in some provinces. Please consult with the registrar of the specific provincial college of interest.

 

From a document I found detailing the practice of osteopathic medicine in Canada:

 

British Columbia:

There are two pathways for D.O. registration in British Columbia. The first recognizes the COMLEX examinations and two years of AOA certified post-graduate training. The D.O. has a limited license, and is restricted to a practice of musculoskeletal medicine. This pathway is primarily intended for the D.O. that wishes to establish an OMT focused practice. The second pathway requires completion of the MCC, COMLEX, USMLE, FLEX, or NBME examinations and two years of a ACGME residency program. The D.O. will then receive an unrestricted license.

 

Alberta:

The D.O. candidate is required to complete the MCC, COMLEX, or USMLE examinations. AOA certified residencies are recognized.

 

(http://www.osteopathic.ca/Documents/Osteopathic%20Practice%20in%20Canada.doc)

 

Doesn't this mean that:

1.) The MCCEE and MCCQE are not necessary (BC requires completion of one of MCC, COMLEX, USMLE, FLEX, or NBME)

 

2.) Full licensure in Alberta, unlike BC, can be obtained also by doing an AOA residency

 

- These are contradictory to what I've heard, but I'm going to assume that they've made recent changes to the rules.

 

That particular document on the COA website is actually out of date. They recently changed the rules again, all US med graduates must now write the MCCQEs for unlimited licensure in Canada (The Canadian Standard law). So now basically, if you are a USMD/USDO, on top of the USMLEs/COMLEX, you also have to write the MCCQEs (if USMD, and MCCEE+QE if USDO). Also, as far as I know, only ACGME residency is recognized in Canada (or dual AOA/ACGME residencies). I'd rather not do an AOA residency and be restricted to Alberta.

[Bets]

I think you have a good shot at getting an interview at Wayne State and Michigan State University IF you apply VERY EARLY and if you write killer secondaries. Try to get experience that you can use to tailor your application to appeal to what the school's main mission and focus is. Wayne State is committed to providing care to community residents that are under- or uninsured. I think they have their students work at free clinics in the city core to address this. MSU is very interested in churning out doctors that will work in the state's rural areas. I know someone who applied to both places and got accepted to both places with very similar stats to you. In his secondary, he conveyed how his time working at a lower-class nursing home in an underserved area made him a good fit for that medical school.

 

I also think the DO route is a good option.

 

Good luck!

[Rwethereyet]

That particular document on the COA website is actually out of date. They recently changed the rules again, all US med graduates must now write the MCCQEs for unlimited licensure in Canada (The Canadian Standard law). So now basically, if you are a USMD/USDO, on top of the USMLEs/COMLEX, you also have to write the MCCQEs (if USMD, and MCCEE+QE if USDO). Also, as far as I know, only ACGME residency is recognized in Canada (or dual AOA/ACGME residencies). I'd rather not do an AOA residency and be restricted to Alberta.

 

Couple quick questions, Mash:

 

1. What would the timeline be for writing these exams... it seems like a LOT of extra work/stress. Doable or not?

 

2. I've read about a 70% matching rate for DOs into ACGME residencies. I would imagine it would be tougher for Canadians in DO schools (because of visa issues). Could you comment a little about this? What if I was strictly aiming for FP? Would I need to destroy the USMLEs to guarantee myself an FP ACGME residency? Seems like someone could really fold under all that stress of writing three sets of exams and having to do especially well on one of them for a one-shot deal to return to Canada.

[Mashmetoo]

Couple quick questions, Mash:

 

1. What would the timeline be for writing these exams... it seems like a LOT of extra work/stress. Doable or not?

 

2. I've read about a 70% matching rate for DOs into ACGME residencies. I would imagine it would be tougher for Canadians in DO schools (because of visa issues). Could you comment a little about this? What if I was strictly aiming for FP? Would I need to destroy the USMLEs to guarantee myself an FP ACGME residency? Seems like someone could really fold under all that stress of writing three sets of exams and having to do especially well on one of them for a one-shot deal to return to Canada.

 

1) COMLEX1, USMLE1 in summer of 2nd year. COMLEX2,USMLE2 end of 3rd year. COMLEX3,USMLE3 4th year or beginning of PGY1. MCCEE 4th year (maybe 3rd), MCCQE1 4th year (maybe 1st year PGY1).

 

2) You won't be the first and you won't be the last. Since you write the COMLEX and USMLEs at pretty much the same time (similar tests, similar content - i.e., mostly the same science, clinical). DOs study the COMLEX along with the USMLEs, then we take those 2 exams within a month of each other (sometimes 1-2weeks). The DOs I've talked to said it shouldn't be a problem writing 2 tests since you'd be studying for both at the same time anyhow. FM was never really hard to get into. And you certainly don't need to destroy the board exams (although getting at least avg, and above avg will certainly help) for FM anyways. You don't have to be the fastest, just faster than the guys behind you As a Canadian, you'd certainly need "better" scores than your avg American colleague due to the visa issue. But then again, there's lots of FM residencies on the East coast that specialize in taking in IMGs from the Caribbean, and are simultaneously DO friendly, I imagine that would help the Canadian DOs. I've seen DOs wing the COMLEX to better prepare for the USMLEs, so there are lots of strategy involved. I don't think it's that bad. As for the MCCQEs, that's the common variable for both DOs and MDs, we both have to write that, and will have to figure out a time to study for it.

[Rwethereyet]

I think you have a good shot at getting an interview at Wayne State and Michigan State University IF you apply VERY EARLY and if you write killer secondaries. Try to get experience that you can use to tailor your application to appeal to what the school's main mission and focus is. Wayne State is committed to providing care to community residents that are under- or uninsured. I think they have their students work at free clinics in the city core to address this. MSU is very interested in churning out doctors that will work in the state's rural areas. I know someone who applied to both places and got accepted to both places with very similar stats to you. In his secondary, he conveyed how his time working at a lower-class nursing home in an underserved area made him a good fit for that medical school.

 

I also think the DO route is a good option.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks for the insight, Bets. I will no doubt be shooting some MD apps in this cycle.

 

Does anyone know what the shelf-life for MCATs are for most US DO/MD schools? I wrote mine late 2010. Am I good for at least two cycles? (through to 2012-2013 cycle).

 

Thanks for the excellent info, Mash - I hope you don't mind some more questions, you are an incredible DO information hub:

 

1.) When will the COA update their info RE: DOs and returning to Canada? Do you have a link to the information source for the recent reversions back to requiring the MCC's?

 

2.) I understand the benefits of writing the exams while everything is still fresh (3rd/4th year)... but what if I had no intention of applying to CARMs? Is it a bad idea not to? I was thinking about focusing on the USMLEs and COMLEX and then writing the MCC's while doing residency (I must admit I don't know enough about the process - will there be no time during res / other exams to write at this point?). Do I need to apply to CARMS regardless to be eligible for the J1 or H1B?

 

3.) If I only wanted to do FP (3-year), would I HAVE to get an H1B or would a J1 suffice (I'm not sure about the differences between these, but I think the J1 requires you to return to Canada at some point?)

 

4.) How difficult is the program right now at COMP? Is it worse / better than you anticipated? Easier concept-wise than Ugrad (I did biochem)? Volume manageable? Are the USMLE / COMLEX study periods normally hell or are most students able to get these done with relatively little hardship?

 

I know I'm looking way ahead ... but I think it pays to be well informed!

 

THANKS

[Mashmetoo]

Thanks for the insight, Bets. I will no doubt be shooting some MD apps in this cycle.

 

Does anyone know what the shelf-life for MCATs are for most US DO/MD schools? I wrote mine late 2010. Am I good for at least two cycles? (through to 2012-2013 cycle).

 

Thanks for the excellent info, Mash - I hope you don't mind some more questions, you are an incredible DO information hub:

 

1.) When will the COA update their info RE: DOs and returning to Canada? Do you have a link to the information source for the recent reversions back to requiring the MCC's?

 

2.) I understand the benefits of writing the exams while everything is still fresh (3rd/4th year)... but what if I had no intention of applying to CARMs? Is it a bad idea not to? I was thinking about focusing on the USMLEs and COMLEX and then writing the MCC's while doing residency (I must admit I don't know enough about the process - will there be no time during res / other exams to write at this point?). Do I need to apply to CARMS regardless to be eligible for the J1 or H1B?

 

3.) If I only wanted to do FP (3-year), would I HAVE to get an H1B or would a J1 suffice (I'm not sure about the differences between these, but I think the J1 requires you to return to Canada at some point?)

 

4.) How difficult is the program right now at COMP? Is it worse / better than you anticipated? Easier concept-wise than Ugrad (I did biochem)? Volume manageable? Are the USMLE / COMLEX study periods normally hell or are most students able to get these done with relatively little hardship?

 

I know I'm looking way ahead ... but I think it pays to be well informed!

 

THANKS

 

MCAT good for 3 years in the US

 

1) That document has been on that site since at least 2008 (when I first started looking into it), I doubt it'll get updated soon. I get all my info by bouncing around websites, e.g., carms, MCC websites etc etc.

 

2) American DOs have their own AOA residencies to fall back on in case an ACGME residency is not obtained. As a Canadian, you are basically only limited to ACGME residencies (if you ever plan on coming back to Canada), so I say we even the odds and apply to CaRMs, you can apply to at least 7 schools (all the ontario ones, and UBC - is that the only med school in BC? lol) - first iteration too. But again, no one's forcing you to apply to CaRMs, if you don't write the MCCQEs, you can't return to Canada. For the visa question, use the search function.

 

3) you can get the J1 too, but that would require you to write the MCCEE first (intention to return to Canada). And you'd also have to return for a minimum of 2 years. Most important, you can't moonlight on the J1 - which could translate to something like 200k of lost income in your 3 years of FM residency. I'd suggest the H1B on this one - H1B or bust.

 

4) depends on the system. Gross anatomy kicked my butt, then I made a comeback.. Now we are in Neuro - like Gross anatomy on cocaine and steroids.. and I'm getting my butt handed to me again.. Depends on what you majored on in Undergrad - that'll be your strength. The volume is just barely manageable sometimes. So you really need to know what you are doing, no time to experiment or mess around. Find something that works fast and stick to it. It's not hard concept wise, just a full crap load of it.

 

Lastly, the vast majority of DOs write both USMLEs and COMLEX. As I said, you are not the first, and you won't be the last. People have found out ways to pull it off nicely. If you want to be a med student, your life will be full of hardship for the next 4+x years - writing these board exams will only be a minor portion of it

[Rwethereyet]

MCAT good for 3 years in the US

 

Lastly, the vast majority of DOs write both USMLEs and COMLEX. As I said, you are not the first, and you won't be the last. People have found out ways to pull it off nicely. If you want to be a med student, your life will be full of hardship for the next 4+x years - writing these board exams will only be a minor portion of it

 

Thanks for your frank advice, Mash. I want to be a doctor. Whatever it takes.