Our increasing connection with high-tech

[Erk]

This made me chuckle a bit!

 

I think it would be fascinating to be able to see/interact with our mirror copy from years ago. However, I'm not sure I would go for it and back up myself. I don't know, maybe something about uniqueness and individuality is tickling at me. There'd definitely be an issue if that "copy" continues to evolve in a possibly different "being" along the way.

Yeah, it would be strange.

 

At the same time, I can imagine something like using your PC to simulate yourself as the OS. If I could have a simulation of myself instead of the MS word paperclip, working as the controller of my computer, kind of a personal secretary, I'd be sorely tempted.

 

As for backups, don't forget that if the simulation is not running, it's just a collection of files, and distinctly not alive. But the implications of backing up can get scary. If I back up my wife and she dies six months later in a tragic car accident, I could have her around me forever by uploading her to a computer, but it would be a digital facsimile of her, not the real thing. Then again, if I then backed up myself and uploaded myself into the same computer, we could live together forever in a digital reality where we coexist.

 

Only it wouldn't be us anymore.

 

We have only brushed the surface of this stuff though. There are other huge, mind-numbingly confusing concepts I can bring up if we're all having fun Like in the above example of a computer OS, would it be smart or corrupt to alter the uploaded brain before bringing it online, making it love the idea of being a computer OS, so that it has all your memories but a skillset needed to do its job and a programmed enjoyment of this job, a programmed nonchalance to the ethical issues of being shut down every night?

[*Pixie*]

2) an element of our identity and development that can't be represented by pure molecular simulation of ourselves.

 

 

This might stir up yet another religious/ spiritual argument haha;) lol

 

 

Aside from kidding around though, I think that (2) is most likely to actually change the current paradigm. (1) is too safe - it would probably be thought of as more likely by the current scientific community, but the possibility of (2) might force the scientists to rediscover a new mindset on life. And I am NOT implying religion here. I am thinking of the paradigm shifts that took place in the history of science when something revolutionary was strived for, like Copernicus's heliocentrism or Einstein's theory of gravity. Creating artificial people is quite revolutionary.

[Erk]

This might stir up yet another religious/ spiritual argument haha;) lol

 

 

Aside from kidding around though, I think that (2) is most likely to actually change the current paradigm. (1) is too safe - it would probably be thought of as more likely by the current scientific community, but the possibility of (2) might force the scientists to rediscover a new mindset on life. And I am NOT implying religion here. I am thinking of the paradigm shifts that took place in the history of science when something revolutionary was strived for, like Copernicus's heliocentrism or Einstein's theory of gravity. Creating artificial people is quite revolutionary.

Yeah, I mean, if (2) came to pass it would certainly be lauded as evidence of the soul, but I think that's just a God of the Gaps argument (ie. we don't understand it, so it must be divine). In reality it would be a call to arms for neurologists to explore new avenues to explain the mind, like you've said. That's actually one of the most exciting things about this research direction I think.

 

For that matter, we might find there is a "soul". I suspect that if one exists, we shall eventually demonstrate that it does and form a rational scientific background to its existence. I'm not against the concept, but I think if we do eventually prove the existence of the soul, we'll also find that it's not magical when we do so. Well, no more magical than anything else in this beautiful, symphonic collage of chemicals and radiation we call reality.

[psychoswim]

We have only brushed the surface of this stuff though. There are other huge, mind-numbingly confusing concepts I can bring up if we're all having fun Like in the above example of a computer OS, would it be smart or corrupt to alter the uploaded brain before bringing it online, making it love the idea of being a computer OS, so that it has all your memories but a skillset needed to do its job and a programmed enjoyment of this job, a programmed nonchalance to the ethical issues of being shut down every night?

 

That would almost be like creating a new life form! It reminds me of that Star Trek TNG episode where they end up having prof Moriarty live his life in a computer simulation cube but he doesn't realize it.

 

Regardless of the results, I think we can definitely foresee a huge shift in mindset like Pixie just said.

[psychoswim]

Yeah, I mean, if (2) came to pass it would certainly be lauded as evidence of the soul, but I think that's just a God of the Gaps argument (ie. we don't understand it, so it must be divine). In reality it would be a call to arms for neurologists to explore new avenues to explain the mind, like you've said. That's actually one of the most exciting things about this research direction I think.

 

For that matter, we might find there is a "soul". I suspect that if one exists, we shall eventually demonstrate that it does and form a rational scientific background to its existence. I'm not against the concept, but I think if we do eventually prove the existence of the soul, we'll also find that it's not magical when we do so. Well, no more magical than anything else in this beautiful, symphonic collage of chemicals and radiation we call reality.

 

+1

 

........

[Erk]

That would almost be like creating a new life form! It reminds me of that Star Trek TNG episode where they end up having prof Moriarty live his life in a computer simulation cube but he doesn't realize it.

 

Regardless of the results, I think we can definitely foresee a huge shift in mindset like Pixie just said.

 

yes, a new life form, but one that was also you at the same time. How insane is that?

 

Here's another headache-inspiring concept. What if we take, say, the mind of an incredibly skilled artisan. Say the greatest woodworker ever. We take this mind, copy it as much as we want, and upload the copies to robotic bodies capable of doing the woodwork the artisan has always done.

 

If we have one master woodworker who can be copied infinitely, is there any impetus to develop new woodworkers? Would it destroy any innovation in the field by removing the desire to train new members? Or, perhaps, would all craftsmanship become sheerly an art for pleasure issue, with the "necessary" stuff done by robot copies of the best of the best?

[*Pixie*]

yes, a new life form, but one that was also you at the same time. How insane is that?

 

Here's another headache-inspiring concept. What if we take, say, the mind of an incredibly skilled artisan. Say the greatest woodworker ever. We take this mind, copy it as much as we want, and upload the copies to robotic bodies capable of doing the woodwork the artisan has always done.

 

If we have one master woodworker who can be copied infinitely, is there any impetus to develop new woodworkers? Would it destroy any innovation in the field by removing the desire to train new members? Or, perhaps, would all craftsmanship become sheerly an art for pleasure issue, with the "necessary" stuff done by robot copies of the best of the best?

 

Would the copies be full-blown copies, I mean FULLY intelligent copies (not just the skilled in woodworking robots)? If so, I can foresee a change in their attitude. One day they might just realize that they were created for trivial reasons and might fight for their independence and rights. Hence is the likely end of the world. Better take it easy with the number of copies.

[psychoswim]

Or maybe some others would be inspired and motivated to become even better than that replicated skilled artisan? Just like now some people want to surpass the very best, I think there will always be people who aren't satisfied with current perfection. The art for pleasure issue sure is interesting because so many great discoveries could be found that way, without the pressure of performance, only self-fulfillment and pleasure being the goal.

 

OT - this discussion is helping practice my English lol I keep having to google words up that I know I want to write but don't know the translations exactly

[Erk]

Or maybe some others would be inspired and motivated to become even better than that replicated skilled artisan? Just like now some people want to surpass the very best, I think there will always be people who aren't satisfied with current perfection. The art for pleasure issue sure is interesting because so many great discoveries could be found that way, without the pressure of performance, only self-fulfillment and pleasure being the goal.

 

OT - this discussion is helping practice my English lol I keep having to google words up that I know I want to write but don't know the translations exactly

 

Like I've said, this kind of discussion is possibly the best way to improve one's VR and WS scores on the MCAT.

 

You make a great point about aiming to surpass the skilled artisan. I think that is probably how things would go. So then, let's track back to what you and Pixie were saying that I haven't addressed yet, the idea of having downloadable knowledge.

 

What if you could download the master artisan's abilities? Would you learn them yourself? Or just download them?

[*Pixie*]

yes, a new life form, but one that was also you at the same time. How insane is that?

 

Here's another headache-inspiring concept. What if we take, say, the mind of an incredibly skilled artisan. Say the greatest woodworker ever. We take this mind, copy it as much as we want, and upload the copies to robotic bodies capable of doing the woodwork the artisan has always done.

 

If we have one master woodworker who can be copied infinitely, is there any impetus to develop new woodworkers? Would it destroy any innovation in the field by removing the desire to train new members? Or, perhaps, would all craftsmanship become sheerly an art for pleasure issue, with the "necessary" stuff done by robot copies of the best of the best?

 

I read your post to quickly haha. In regards to my previous post: if you copy the woodworking craft only then I guess the uprising would be unlikely. If however the robots are designed to have plasticity and can improve their artistic and woodworking skills then... see my previous post. lol

[PhoenixFlare500]

What if you could download the master artisan's abilities? Would you learn them yourself? Or just download them?

 

If we're talking Matrix style, I'd download everything I could man.

[psychoswim]

Like I've said, this kind of discussion is possibly the best way to improve one's VR and WS scores on the MCAT.

 

You make a great point about aiming to surpass the skilled artisan. I think that is probably how things would go. So then, let's track back to what you and Pixie were saying that I haven't addressed yet, the idea of having downloadable knowledge.

 

What if you could download the master artisan's abilities? Would you learn them yourself? Or just download them?

 

I personally would rather learn them because I enjoy the process sometimes more than the goal. I obviously know of many people who would download them. Would you?

 

Though now that I think about it more. In the artisan case, I think I would learn. But what if the material/skill you can download is actually necessary in a tighter deadline that what would be possible to learn on your own? What if it was to save a life right this minute?

[psychoswim]

If we're talking Matrix style, I'd download everything I could man.

 

Makes you realize how many movies have been made that just scratch the surface of all those future possibilities!

[Erk]

Would the copies be full-blown copies, I mean FULLY intelligent copies (not just the skilled in woodworking robots)? If so, I can foresee a change in their attitude. One day they might just realize that they were created for trivial reasons and might fight for their independence and rights. Hence is the likely end of the world. Better take it easy with the number of copies.

 

That's possible. I hope that if we reached this stage, we'd have already had a chance to develop a sense of rights for the copies. Each one may be a respected Woodworker, in a society where copies of masters were common. It's hard to say.

[*Pixie*]

Like I've said, this kind of discussion is possibly the best way to improve one's VR and WS scores on the MCAT.

 

You make a great point about aiming to surpass the skilled artisan. I think that is probably how things would go. So then, let's track back to what you and Pixie were saying that I haven't addressed yet, the idea of having downloadable knowledge.

 

What if you could download the master artisan's abilities? Would you learn them yourself? Or just download them?

 

 

I think if you could just download abilities...your ego would explode. The process of learning requires a very important character feature - humbleness.

[*Pixie*]

And another possible issue would be the COST. If abilities were ONLY accessed through downloading, then only people that could afford the price would be able to get the skills. And then you will get a lineage of rich almighty people that is quite distant from other mortals.

[Erk]

I think if you could just download abilities...your ego would explode. The process of learning requires a very important character feature - humbleness.

 

An excellent argument. I mean, if we could, with the passage of a progress bar, become masters of whatever we wanted, would we lose what makes us human? It would be pretty impossible to be humble; the concept would be meaningless. Likewise it'd be hard to be prideful, since we'd not have earned anything to be proud of.

 

In a sense, we'd have become something new. Compared to us now, we would be like demigods. It's very difficult to know how we'd adapt to that kind of situation.

[Erk]

And another possible issue would be the COST. If abilities were ONLY accessed through downloading, then only people that could afford the price would be able to get the skills. And then you will get a lineage of rich almighty people that is quite distant from other mortals.

 

That, or we will transcend economics with the total removal of scarcity. However, there are other really interesting economic problems. Like, if our brains are simulated, how do we distribute the clockspeed? Do rich people have the right to pay for more CPU time and therefore run faster, quite literally, than poor?

[*Pixie*]

An excellent argument. I mean, if we could, with the passage of a progress bar, become masters of whatever we wanted, would we lose what makes us human? It would be pretty impossible to be humble; the concept would be meaningless. Likewise it'd be hard to be prideful, since we'd not have earned anything to be proud of.

 

In a sense, we'd have become something new. Compared to us now, we would be like demigods. It's very difficult to know how we'd adapt to that kind of situation.

 

Good point. I like the demigods word - that is waht I was trying to get at in my post on rich almighty people, i.e. demigods.

[psychoswim]

That, or we will transcend economics with the total removal of scarcity. However, there are other really interesting economic problems. Like, if our brains are simulated, how do we distribute the clockspeed? Do rich people have the right to pay for more CPU time and therefore run faster, quite literally, than poor?

 

Run faster, or have a larger download capacity? And then that could become a way for the rich to control the poor, by limiting their access/speed!

[*Pixie*]

That, or we will transcend economics with the total removal of scarcity. However, there are other really interesting economic problems. Like, if our brains are simulated, how do we distribute the clockspeed? Do rich people have the right to pay for more CPU time and therefore run faster, quite literally, than poor?

 

Hopefully there will be a cap on the amount of CPU time everyone is allowed. However, just like with everything else, people with connections will pull their strings and get what they want anyway.

 

Also, what about possible mind hackers? What if your mind, thoughts, ideas or even personality can be stolen?

[psychoswim]

I think if you could just download abilities...your ego would explode. The process of learning requires a very important character feature - humbleness.

 

I completely agree. Also, how satisfying would life be if anything was available at our fingertips?

[Erk]

Run faster, or have a larger download capacity? And then that could become a way for the rich to control the poor, by limiting their access/speed!

 

But at the same time, we start getting into really messy stuff. Once we're at the point of downloading knowledge and creating brilliant minds in silica, we approach a technological point where processing power could potentially advance to infinite levels.

 

Personally I think we'd see the complete collapse of scarcity based economics. I think there'd be a large, very difficult patch where human nature required us to try to keep the "other" down, but I think this kind of revolution would eventually lead us to becoming an entirely new organism. I think/hope it'd be an organism with a greater empathy for other members, possibly due to the ability to actively share their emotions by downloading them. Not to say it'd be a utopia. I think there'd be whole new problems we can't even conceive of yet.

 

We're getting pretty distant future here though

[*Pixie*]

I completely agree. Also, how satisfying would life be if anything was available at our fingertips?

 

haha yes this part of the argument reminded me of the latest "Indian Jones"

[psychoswim]

Hopefully there will be a cap on the amount of CPU time everyone is allowed. However, just like with everything else, people with connections will pull their strings and get what they want anyway.

 

Also, what about possible mind hackers? What if your mind, thoughts, ideas or even personality can be stolen?

 

That would become a whole other level of identity theft! I think it would become quite hard, perhaps impossible to really protect your "copies", especially since at that point we would be even more interconnected with technology. If everyone can upload/download, how do you enforce limits on stealing others' persona?