Obesity and healthcare

[aaronjw]

I could just as easily say "go move to Sweden if you think collectivistic social policy is a good idea." A view being alternative to the predominant one does not intrinsically discredit it.

 

As a general rule, the free market is the answer to everything. The only people against it are the feeble who can't compete.

 

It's not selfish - I believe in equal opportunity.

 

I came from the business world so i actually know what im talking about. You, don't.

 

Free markets is what caused the financial system to crumble. Free markets caused the auto industry to crumble. Free markets caused manufacturing to crumble.

 

For someone who advocates a free market i find it funny you want to go into a profession that has no free market.

 

For something to be truly called a free market there cannot be Gov't involvement aiding or hindering a business. In no country does a free market actually exist.

[Wayward son]

For someone who advocates a free market i find it funny you want to go into a profession that has no free market.

 

I agree with everything in your last post aaron. D.K. thinks he knows what he is talking about, but really has no clue. A couple months ago in another thread, I said about people like D.K. - they advocate free markets for poor people, but protections for themselves.

[D.K.]

Free markets is what caused the financial system to crumble. Free markets caused the auto industry to crumble. Free markets caused manufacturing to crumble.

 

No, that's not what caused them to crumble. Government regulation, leftist policies, and unions caused them to fail.

 

It's funny when leftists intervene in the free market, it fails, then blame the free market as a whole. It's not the free market - it's the leftist policies.

 

The auto market failed because with unions, the car companies were paying their entry-level workers $60 an hour to do a job that people in Japan were doing for $20 an hour. No **** they failed? How can you compete when you have blood-sucking unions all over your back?

 

The manufacturing market is a dead man walking, because of minimum wage. People in china will take $2 an hour to work in a factory. Minimum wage here is at least $10 an hour. And people complain about unemployment, and how all the mexican illegal immigrants/chinese outsourcers are stealing their jobs. HAHA.

 

The financial sector wouldn't have crashed if it wasn't for government regulations. The financial sector is the most regulated industry. It's hardly free market. First strip out all the red tape, then we'll talk about free market. You inadvertently weakened your arguement by bringing up the financial sector - it's the closest thing to communism we have.

[A-Stark]

No, that's not what caused them to crumble. Government regulation, leftist policies, and unions caused them to fail.

 

Unions and leftist policies don't have much pull on Wall Street or in the City of London.

 

It's funny when leftists intervene in the free market, it fails, then blame the free market as a whole. It's not the free market - it's the leftist policies.

 

Leftist polices like lax banking and financial regulations, allowing for all sort of exotic financial "instruments" of essentially no value?

 

The auto market failed because with unions, the car companies were paying their entry-level workers $60 an hour to do a job that people in Japan were doing for $20 an hour. No **** they failed? How can you compete when you have blood-sucking unions all over your back?

 

I'm rather skeptical that such a wage disparity has existed between Japan and North America in the past 30 years or so. It's rather interesting to note that Germany with company "works councils" and 70% unionization has a stronger and more productive economy than "free market" and austerity-driven Britain.

 

The manufacturing market is a dead man walking, because of minimum wage. People in china will take $2 an hour to work in a factory. Minimum wage here is at least $10 an hour. And people complain about unemployment, and how all the mexican illegal immigrants/chinese outsourcers are stealing their jobs. HAHA.

 

I'm pretty sure that no one has ever cited minimum wage as a factor relevant to declines in the manufacturing sector.

 

The financial sector wouldn't have crashed if it wasn't for government regulations. The financial sector is the most regulated industry. It's hardly free market. First strip out all the red tape, then we'll talk about free market. You inadvertently weakened your arguement by bringing up the financial sector - it's the closest thing to communism we have.

 

I don't know how to even begin...

[mdDave]

I came from the business world so i actually know what im talking about. You, don't.

 

Free markets is what caused the financial system to crumble. Free markets caused the auto industry to crumble. Free markets caused manufacturing to crumble.

That's BS. The free market wasn't at fault. At fault were the bankers abusing their power, breaking the law and conning the public. In a true free market that situation could not happen.

 

 

For something to be truly called a free market there cannot be Gov't involvement aiding or hindering a business. In no country does a free market actually exist.

 

I'll agree with this. A truly free market can never exist anywhere.

[A-Stark]

If a "true free market" cannot actually exist, it would seem a rather irrelevant consideration in this or any discussion. As your banker example illustrates, powerful people can take advantage of weak regulations and poor enforcement for their own ends and cause disastrous problems. Indeed, the essential problem is that the drive for "freer" markets tends to open up opportunities for just such abuses of power to occur, yet proponents thereof deny that possibility. After all, we merely need to let "market forces" rule unfettered and all will be well, right?

[Wayward son]

No, that's not what caused them to crumble. Government regulation, leftist policies, and unions caused them to fail.

 

There are several books that have already been written about the crash. You might try reading them instead of watching Glen Beck.

[preppy038]

To bring back the obesity topic,

 

how people who are obese feel about eating may be different from how we feel.

 

We cannot compare people who are overweight with ourselves who may not be because our physiological mechanisms are so different from each other.

Two people could have the same lifestyle, same diet, and same amount of exercise but one could be obese and one not.

So, we cannot fully blame the obese individuals for eating so much when it could just be their body/fat tissue metabolism.

 

So D.K. your argument doesn't completely work since you're not counting the fact that these obese people might not be obese by choice

[aaronjw]

Do you really think individual physiology is responsible for someone having 70%+ bodyfat?

 

I coach a kid who is 12 years old and weighs over 260lbs at a height of around 5'4. Do you think its his physiology that causes him to be twice the size (fat) pf his teammates or what his parents feed him?

To bring back the obesity topic,

 

how people who are obese feel about eating may be different from how we feel.

 

We cannot compare people who are overweight with ourselves who may not be because our physiological mechanisms are so different from each other.

Two people could have the same lifestyle, same diet, and same amount of exercise but one could be obese and one not.

So, we cannot fully blame the obese individuals for eating so much when it could just be their body/fat tissue metabolism.

 

So D.K. your argument doesn't completely work since you're not counting the fact that these obese people might not be obese by choice

[preppy038]

Do you really think individual physiology is responsible for someone having 70%+ bodyfat?

 

I coach a kid who is 12 years old and weighs over 260lbs at a height of around 5'4. Do you think its his physiology that causes him to be twice the size (fat) pf his teammates or what his parents feed him?

 

It is not the only factor but it plays a role. Because it plays a role (whether it be small or big, we don't know), we cannot just blame people for being obese and say that it is fully their responsibility.

 

I'm sure its not only the kid's physiology that causes him to be twice the size, but what his parents feed him also plays an important role.

 

I used physiology as an example to point out that there are so many factors that can lead to obesity that we can't just blame them for how they are.

 

I'm sure you already knew that

[Suprachiasmatic]

So D.K. your argument doesn't completely work since you're not counting the fact that these obese people might not be obese by choice

 

There are a lot of things in life we can't control, and I don't entirely agree with D.K., but this isn't one of the reasons why. I definitely feel that your weight is one of the few things in your life you DO have a choice about. Should we help obese people? Yes, of course, but at some point you have to take your health into your own hands.

 

I used to be obese. It was because I was lazy and gluttonous. I switched my diet, which if anything was cheaper than my old diet, so I don't understand a cost argument (fruits and vegetables are NOT expensive...! Not to mention water is virtually free and the only thing you need to drink) and dropped pounds faster than a fiddler with moderate amounts of exercise.

 

My mother too, was obese. She has hypothyroidism, so if anyone has a good excuse for being fat, it's her. She too, has lost a lot of weight and is continuing to lose it through relatively simple dietary management changes.

 

Most people that are overweight remain so because of intake of useless carbs (soda drinks and the like, candy, chips, etc) or meals that are terrible for you (eating out all the time). Quite frankly, I don't know anyone that eats healthy and is overweight, so the concept that it might not be a 'choice' doesn't make any sense.

 

Of course they don't choose to be obese as if they weigh the two options and go 'mmmhmmm, yep, I wanna be obese', but they certainly have the option to not be if they want to.

[Pantaloons]

Interesting diagram showing the various causes of obesity (very very cool!):

http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html

 

They break the main forces of obesity down to:

1. Media

2. Social

3. Psychological

4. Economic

5. Food

6. Activity

7. Infrastructure

8. Developmental

9. Biological

10. Medical

 

They interact in many ways (to say the least), and this diagram tries to make sense of them (but yes, it is a bit ridiculous).

[D.K.]

Here's my obesity map.

 

Stop bringing fork to face ----> No obesity

 

As for some people having no control over their own weight, consider this. Pretend you are fat. If you locked yourself in a basement for a month, with no food in there, would you still be fat? Of course not. This "no control over own weight" thing is nothing but a convienent excuse.

 

I'll admit: Some people have a natural tendency to feel more hungry than others. At this point, if you are one of these people, you have two choices - fight the urge, or submit to it. Yes, I'm sure all sorts of factors exist, that in the lab might make a difference. But in real life, what it comes down to is can you resist the urge or not?

[MarathonRunner]

Here's my obesity map.

 

Stop bringing fork to face ----> No obesity

 

As for some people having no control over their own weight, consider this. Pretend you are fat. If you locked yourself in a basement for a month, with no food in there, would you still be fat? Of course not. This "no control over own weight" thing is nothing but a convienent excuse.

 

I'll admit: Some people have a natural tendency to feel more hungry than others. At this point, if you are one of these people, you have two choices - fight the urge, or submit to it. Yes, I'm sure all sorts of factors exist, that in the lab might make a difference. But in real life, what it comes down to is can you resist the urge or not?

 

Wow. I guess you've never heard of hypothyroidism or other metabolic problems that can make it extremely difficult to losevweight, even when one exercises a TON and eats small, healthy meals.

 

Oh, and not eating is a mental disorder known as anoxia nervosa. Hardly healthy, and certainly not a healthy way to lose weight. I lost a friend to anorexia and I can honestly say it is a horrible disease. But I'm sure you would tell someone suffering from it to just get over it and start eating.

 

I certainly hope you don't succeed in gaining admission to medical school. You are severely lacking in any kind of compassion. I hope you will mature and gain a new perspective on some of these issues.

[D.K.]

double post

[D.K.]

Wow. I guess you've never heard of hypothyroidism or other metabolic problems that can make it extremely difficult to losevweight, even when one exercises a TON and eats small, healthy meals.

 

Oh, and not eating is a mental disorder known as anoxia nervosa. Hardly healthy, and certainly not a healthy way to lose weight. I lost a friend to anorexia and I can honestly say it is a horrible disease. But I'm sure you would tell someone suffering from it to just get over it and start eating.

 

I certainly hope you don't succeed in gaining admission to medical school. You are severely lacking in any kind of compassion. I hope you will mature and gain a new perspective on some of these issues.

 

Thank you for that evaluation, Mr. Marathon runner.

 

Here are the facts. If calories in > calories burned, weight will increase. If calories in < calories burned, weight will decrease. Simple, right? Hypothyroidism slows your metabolism, decreasing calories burned per day, causing you to have to eat less in order to lose weight.

 

In every case, it's a matter of willpower. Some people have it harder than others, but losing weight is always possible. It doesn't matter what kind of psychological tricks you use to stop eating, the above principles are always true.

 

I would make an excellent doctor. Why? I would tell people like it is: you control your own weight, there are no excuses for being fat. This would give people the self-efficacy to lose weight, instead of the typical "it's out of your control" excuse that people use to justify lack of behavioural change.