3rd year student vs 4th year student

[precision]

Why do many schools look down upon 3rd year students? Everyone on this forum says that 3rd year students require higher grades than 4th year students. This is ridiculous.

 

Who would have a better chance getting accepted, a 3rd year student with a 3.86, excellent ECs (5 years of ECs), and great interview skills or a 4th year student with a 3.85, excellent ECs (5 years of ECs because they started later than the 3rd year student) and great interview skills? From what everyone here says, the 4th year student would get in. Why is this the case? Just because the 4th year student has learned more, they may have learned more information that would not be used in medicine. Say the 4th year student is in a music major and the 3rd year student is in a science major.

 

This is bothering me and I feel that I should have the same chance as a 4th year student.

[future_doc]

What you think should be does not matter in the slightest and your viewpoint is necessarily biased. Students one year ahead bring more to the table in terms of maturity, experience, track record. And a music major is not discriminated compared to a science major, it does not matter in the slightest. Third year students are definitely accepted despite the fact that they have a higher mountain to climb. If you can climb that mountain,wonderful, if not, just take a number and get in line along with everybody else. And to put it in perspective, applicants in 4th year UG with a 4.0 GPA and amazing ECs are routinely rejected every year. There are more excellent candidates than seats available, so get used to the realities of life. Moreover, many of us need to apply numerous times until acceptance!

[precision]

What you think should be does not matter in the slightest and your viewpoint is necessarily biased. Students one year ahead bring more to the

table in terms of maturity, experfience, track record. And a music major is not discriminated compared to a science major, it does not matter in the slightest. Third year students are definitely accepted despite the fact that they have a higher mountain to climb. If you can climb that mountain,wonderful, if not, just take a number and get in line along with everybody else. And to put it in perspective, applicants in 4th year UG with a 4.0 GPA and amazing ECs are routinely rejected every year. There are more excellent candidates than seats available, so get used to the realities of life. Moreover, many of us need to apply numerous times until acceptance!

 

Note: I mentioned that the 3rd year and 4th year student have the same level of experience (both 5 years of ECs, work experience etc.) I did not mention maturity level but I should have. So I'll clarify. Let's assume that everything the admissions look into for the students are presented equally in the 3rd and 4th year student. If maturity matters, lets also imagine that the two applicants are both 21 at the time of application.

Also note that the 3rd year student has a higher GPA than the 4th year student.

[bumbaclot]

Note: I mentioned that the 3rd year and 4th year student have the same level of experience (both 5 years of ECs, work experience etc.) I did not mention maturity level but I should have. So I'll clarify. Let's assume that everything the admissions look into for the students are presented equally in the 3rd and 4th year student. If maturity matters, lets also imagine that the two applicants are both 21 at the time of application.

Also note that the 3rd year student has a higher GPA than the 4th year student.

 

Maybe fourth year classes are harder than 3rd year so they are weighted more? So if they both have the same gpa and same everything else, then its fair to take the 4th year student since he had tougher classes than the 3rd year student but was still able to maintain a good gpa.

[Cmed]

its harder to hold a high gpa over more years than it is less time in most cases. some schools do favor it, but in most cases there are probably just more eligible 4th years than 3rd years. Its like applying to a job... cet par you take the one with more experience. its not that hard to figure out and shouldn't be infuriating...

[Lactic Folly]

You could apply this line of reasoning to any of the other criteria used for medical school admissions, like those who have argued that GPA beyond a certain point is not useful to predict success as a physician. Like it or not, year of study is something that the schools have decided to factor in.

 

From speaking to people, I get the feeling that since the majority of medical school matriculants at the English-speaking schools in this country have completed a Bachelor's or more, in order to be accelerated, you have to prove yourself worthy of special consideration. There's less angst in turning down a 3rd year applicant, since they can reapply the next year without significantly derailing their plans.

[precision]

its harder to hold a high gpa over more years than it is less time in most cases. some schools do favor it, but in most cases there are probably just more eligible 4th years than 3rd years. Its like applying to a job... cet par you take the one with more experience. its not that hard to figure out and shouldn't be infuriating...

 

You just reminded me of one laboratory position I applied to in my first year of university. I got to the interview stage, passed the interview and they rejected me because I was a first year student and found someone "more qualified" than me ie. older, took higher level courses. What I'm trying to say is that they should be looking at the student's potential not what they have gone through so far. A person in 2nd year with a 4.0 GPA can have more knowledge/learn quicker/adapt to change more quickly than a 3rd year student with a 3.7 GPA. Additionally, some people go through school "just to pass" and do not learn as much as they should. For instance, a biology teacher I had in high school had a masters degree in a biology field and she wasn't able to answer many of the questions that another biology teacher with only a BSc. could answer.

 

The only med school that I'm aware of that doesn't favor upper year students (views everyone equally) is University of Saskatchewan med school. U of Alberta specifically says that 2nd/3rd year students require 3.7+ whereas 4th year 3.3/3.5+. Other schools do not state directly but I guess it is hidden somewhere.

[future_doc]

Note: I mentioned that the 3rd year and 4th year student have the same level of experience (both 5 years of ECs, work experience etc.) I did not mention maturity level but I should have. So I'll clarify. Let's assume that everything the admissions look into for the students are presented equally in the 3rd and 4th year student. If maturity matters, lets also imagine that the two applicants are both 21 at the time of application.

Also note that the 3rd year student has a higher GPA than the 4th year student.

 

It is totally irrelevant that a 3rd yr student has a higher GPA than a 4th yr student or that they are the same age. GPA is just one of many factors. A third year student must be all round stellar in terms of ECs, volunteering, ABS, GPA, Essay, etc and then, one must factor in the applicant pool for the year. A third year student must realistically apply on the basis that it is a trial run for next year and perhaps, an interview will give more experience. Only a fool in 3rd year will expect acceptance. Acceptance in thrd year, indeed, being invited to an interview is the equivalent of winning the lottery.

 

You can expect a greater certainty of rejection as a 3rd yr applicant, whereas other applicants live with continuous uncertainty.

[precision]

It is totally irrelevant that a 3rd yr student has a higher GPA than a 4th yr student or that they are the same age. GPA is just one of many factors. A third year student must be all round stellar in terms of ECs, volunteering, ABS, GPA, Essay, etc and then, one must factor in the applicant pool for the year. A third year student must realistically apply on the basis that it is a trial run for next year and perhaps, an interview will give more experience. Only a fool in 3rd year will expect acceptance. Acceptance in thrd year, indeed, being invited to an interview is the equivalent of winning the lottery.

 

You can expect aa greater certainty of rejection as a 3rd yr applicant, whereas other applicants live with continuous uncertainty.

 

This should be rephrased.

[precision]

I was also inspired by one poster on this forum who completed their 4 year degree in 3. This person was disqualified from many schools however. For this reason, I will no longer try to finish the degree early. I can't find the thread right now if anyone does, please paste the link.

 

This person can definitely handle a full course load in med school as they took 6 courses/year, and 4 each summer for 2 summers. Does anyone have any intake on this?

[precision]

It's quite unfortunate that this is how things work. I'll try to live with it anyways.

[ArchEnemy]

You just reminded me of one laboratory position I applied to in my first year of university. I got to the interview stage, passed the interview and they rejected me because I was a first year student and found someone "more qualified" than me ie. older, took higher level courses. What I'm trying to say is that they should be looking at the student's potential not what they have gone through so far. A person in 2nd year with a 4.0 GPA can have more knowledge/learn quicker/adapt to change more quickly than a 3rd year student with a 3.7 GPA.

 

I think this is justifiable. The other student may have had more lab experiences and technical knowledge on how to operate many of the lab equipment. You being a first-year going into the second, do not possess much knowledge on this. The graduate students may not wish to take on the extra work of having to train you from scratch again.

[Wayward son]

I was also inspired by one poster on this forum who completed their 4 year degree in 3. This person was disqualified from many schools however. For this reason, I will no longer try to finish the degree early. I can't find the thread right now if anyone does, please paste the link.

 

This person can definitely handle a full course load in med school as they took 6 courses/year, and 4 each summer for 2 summers. Does anyone have any intake on this?

 

This would be both Kylamonkey and myself. I can't speak myself as to whether this has disqualified me from any schools, as I haven't specifically looked into many of them (due to my first year), but from what I understand KM has. However, following the traditional route certainly has advantages. Fast tracking has, at minimum, resulted in many headaches dealing with some medical schools. For instance, if I do a 4-year degree in 28 months (as I am doing) does my first semester of my second year count as year 2 or year 3? Might seem minor, but let's say you have 3 second year classes, 2 third year, and a fourth year. But, if it is being counted as third year, do you have 60% 3rd/4th year credits? Yes, if they drop one of your second year courses, but it was one of the third year courses in which you got your one crappy mark that year which lowers your GPA. Major headache, trying to sort things out. Also as KM said, for the schools that look at your best two years will only have our year one and two to look at. They won't look at the summers (where I actually performed best for a number of reasons), or my last year as it will only be for the fall semester. That means you must do very well both regular academic years, compared to your best 2 out of 3 or 4.

 

Still, I don't regret doing it, and I don't feel that it has hurt me in any way at the medical school that I most want to get into. I actually didn't start off overloading - in fact I started out taking 80% of a full course load and received terrible marks. They improved when I took a full course load the following semester (still those first two semesters at 4.5 credits and so-so marks for a premed are what actually disqualifies me from most medical schools, as someone with only 2 regular school years for them to look at. If I had decided to avoid going to school this summer and instead a full year starting this fall, then I would be back in the running for many), and improved further when I overloaded, and again still when I overloaded more heavily. My best semester was actually when I got a 3.96 with a 180% course load (in part due to the registration office forgetting to remove me from 2 classes when they added me to two others, so I stayed in). As I knew from my time working, I do much better the more stress I am under. I have added more classes, and more volunteer work almost every single semester.

[Illuminant]

Look at it from the medical school precepective, you finish 3yrs .. you have an extra year to excel .. someone who finishes four years is counting on getting to med school and if not, pursue another career or 2nd degree or masters .. Certainly you're at a better situation than him ..

[Wayward son]

I would also say that a fourth year student has better chances because of the possibility that they have been through some med school interviews the year before. I thought my MMI interview went very well in the spring, but I think that the experience of having gone through it before gives me an advantage next spring (if I am fortunate enough to receive interview(s) again).

 

I would also say that it is good to be humble about the whole experience. I could not believe the high caliber of every single person I met who was interviewing at the same time I did in the spring. As FD said, getting an interview is an accomplishment in itself. I know incredible candidates who did not get in after 3rd year, but did after their 4th. I know incredible candidates who did not get in after 4th years, but did after a masters.

[osteon]

You just reminded me of one laboratory position I applied to in my first year of university. I got to the interview stage, passed the interview and they rejected me because I was a first year student and found someone "more qualified" than me ie. older, took higher level courses. What I'm trying to say is that they should be looking at the student's potential not what they have gone through so far. A person in 2nd year with a 4.0 GPA can have more knowledge/learn quicker/adapt to change more quickly than a 3rd year student with a 3.7 GPA.

 

1. Going by "potential," they should have hired my cousin; he's a prodigy and is only in grade 11. Potential is useless unless you have the base knowledge to back it up. As a grad student, I can say that I would never hire a first year student no matter how high their GPA was because they simply lack the research/lab experience that is needed, and I wouldn't want to train them.

 

2. The difference between a 3.7 and a 4.0 is minute and probably not that important - especially when it comes to research. So you can read/memorize a book - can you apply it to develop new ideas and questions? As a second year student, probably not as much as a third year who has more experience in the research domain. A 3.7 certainly doesn't slow someone down from learning/adapting as you say. The mean GPA of accepted applicants at many medical schools in Canada and the US is around 3.7, meaning the schools thought people with averages even well below 3.7 were more than capable (meanwhile, people with 4.0s get rejected every year). It's not always just about GPA.

 

3. The big difference between a third year and a fourth year getting accepted can be summed up in 3 letters: B - S and C. Many schools don't even accept students unless they have a degree.

 

4. If you're in third year, relax; I'm sure you'll get into med school soon enough whether it be this year, next year, or years after. You'll be a doctor for the next 40 years, so there's no rush.

[future_doc]

[Q.UOTE=osteon;623053]1. Going by "potential," they should have hired my cousin; he's a prodigy and is only in grade 11. Potential is useless unless you have the base knowledge to back it up. As a grad student, I can say that I would never hire a first year student no matter how high their GPA was because they simply lack the research/lab experience that is needed, and I wouldn't want to train them.

 

4. If you're in third year, relax; I'm sure you'll get into med school soon enough whether it be this year, next year, or years after. You'll be a doctor for the next 40 years, so there's no rush.

 

All the above is soo true! Whether you are a physician for 36 years or 40 years, over your lifetime, it makes not the slightest difference. Few understand this, they are impatient, but their impatience does not help them, rather it hinders them. Performance anxiety is a known phemonema with consequences.

[psychoswim]

Because that's just how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need a UG to get into the US schools? So basically it's the same rule in Canada except schools make some "exceptions". If you go farther, what's stopping schools from taking an extremely bright 2nd year? Or 1st year? Why not take high school students directly then? They have to set cut offs at some points, there's no way around it.

[future_doc]

Why not take high school students directly then? They have to set cut offs at some points, there's no way around it.

 

Actually, I have a Canadian friend who graduated from high school in Ontario in June 2010 and she got into med school in Barbados (a 5 year program) that started in August 2010! The alternative was to do her undergrad here and to apply to med school in Canada during her 4th year of undergrad with no assurance she would get in then or any time. As she lives in Barbados, sh is quite happy to practice there.

 

On the other hand, I applied to med school before entering Cegep and I was actually invited to med school in Montreal - but sadly it was only for a tour. So, I went to Cegep, then did my undergrad, after which I was accepted into med school for real.

 

Michelle, you make a valid point!

[TheBoss]

Because that's just how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need a UG to get into the US schools? So basically it's the same rule in Canada except schools make some "exceptions". If you go farther, what's stopping schools from taking an extremely bright 2nd year? Or 1st year? Why not take high school students directly then? They have to set cut offs at some points, there's no way around it.

 

Well an obvious argument against taking 1st years or high school students is that they do not have any post-secondary level grades available for the assessment of their academic performance by the time interviews or admission offers are made. High school grades would be the closest equivalent available, but many exceptional high schoolers underperform in university.

 

This argument can be extended to 2nd and 3rd year students, as previous posters have already mentioned. 2nd and 3rd year students only have one or two years of uni grades available, compared to three or four for applicants in 4th year or later.

[future_doc]

The flip side is that in Quebec, students with 2 years of Cegep (college), considered the equivalent of one year of university are routinely accepted into med school and they thriveas med students, in the licencing exams as physicians when compared to physicians having their undergrad degree. So, the system is what it is in different jurisdictions and students need to live with the rules of the game accordingly. In the Caribeean, UK, France high school students go directly to med school; it is an accident of life where we are born and end up living and the human condition requires flexibility and adaptation to cope, survive and thrive. Life is not fair, so what, each of us needs to adjust to the reality in which we find ourselves and do our best to overcome obstacles within our capabilities and otherwise, adjust and not let our frustrations become a problem to moving forward in life with a positive attitude.