Application due soon....and I'm not ready

[Guest Delirious]

Hi,

 

Ok, sorry for the long post...but much thanks in advance replying and helping me out =)

 

Firstly, my application for univ. is due this Monday. I've always wanted to do medicine and as such, I know I'll be applying to life sciences for sure @ UofT (or possibly Queens).

 

Problem is...I don't know WHAT I'd like to do in life sciences! 'Do whatever you're interested in' <== That doesn't really help...I am soooo confused. There is no one program that will help me get into medical school...True, but I want a program that will ensure a decent paying job IF I don't get into med school. (heaven forbid)

 

What do you people recommend? I've narrowed the possible list down to Biochemistry, Molecular genetics and bio, Human bio, and microbiology. Ok...its not really that short, but I am really interested in all of them. Hopefully I'll be able to put down a final choice by this weekend =)

 

Secondly, and this is a question that most of the liaison officers are reluctant to answer - what would be a safe high school average to get into the St. George campus? Plus, how are my Grade 11 and 12 marks used? There has to be some reason for full disclosure...>|

 

Also, lets say I didn't do well in Algebra & Geometry...since its not a pre-req for UofT, are they still going to hold a grudge against my admission? I have it right now, its horrid, I'm locked into it and can't drop it....aaargh.

 

And finally...WHY are the admission requirements so much lower for the Scarborough campus than downtown? Does it really matter where I go for my undergraduate studies? Heck, if I went to Waterloo for sciences, do they really care?

 

Once again, MUCH THANKS for answering my questions.

 

-chow

[Guest Delirious]

Forgot one more thing...

 

At UWaterloo, is the pre-prof health sciences program any good? Would any of you recommend it? Is it better to take a program like biochem, or bio at UW or just health sciences?

 

Much thanks again!

 

-chow

[Guest ML]

i'm in the same situation you're in, but i'm in BC.......

 

Personally, I applied to the faculty of Commerce at U of T, and made life science my second choice. If I don't get into commerce and get into life science and i'll probably study Human Biology(pretty typical).

 

the admission averages for life science at UT is like 82-83%.....but i'll post you the answer for sure in 2 days because a student recruiter is coming to my school in 2 days......

 

No university in Canada looks at yer grade 11 marks..only yer final year of high school is used.....so OAC for you and BC Grade 12 for me.

 

and if A&G is not a requirement, the admissions people wont scrutinize your application. They'll only take the average of yer top 4 or 5 courses I think(process is diff for non-OAC students)..

 

and finally, nobody cares about what school you go to from undergrad, as I have learned from my past questions. However, you may not be "favoured" at schools such as Ottawa, which favours students from the Ottawa\Hull region.

 

Peace Out

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi,

 

Regarding UT undergrad, have a look at the POSts (basically, programs) to see which one will give you the most flexibility and allow you to choose the wide selection of courses that you have identified as finding interesting. The Human Biology program can be a good route in that it does offer a wider array of subjects to choose from.

 

UT has some incredible courses to offer, but be careful--not all of them are universally available, i.e., you may have to be registered in a certain POSt to be able to take them. Also, due to computerization, you can no longer go to the prof and plead to be let into his/her class if you don't have the necessary pre-/co-requisites. Now, the UT systems automatically boot you if you don't meet the specifications. So check the pre-/co-requisites carefully!

 

Cheers and good luck,

Kirsteen

[Guest ML]

The U of T recruiter that came to my school today said that you'll need around 82 to get into Life sciences and Physical sciences.....

 

82-92 for engineering, and 93 for Engineering Science

76-82 for arts\commerce depending on yer program

[Guest Akane200]

Those quotes for faculty of arts and sciences are pretty close to the bare minimums (like if you want to go to UT scarborough or erindale) or just plain New College.

 

You see, in Ontario, there are no standardized tests, they just look at high school grades (which in many cases are subjective, and varies greatly from school to school, and location). The same goes for scholarship criteria. You can walk off with lots of them graduating from high school, but you may not be as smart as the average guy from a more competitive (ie better) school.

 

However, picking programs should not be a very high priority right now in high school. Just getting in the general direction is all you need right now. Specific program enrolment comes later; after you have found what you like and what you are capable of doing in university. Don't go into commerce if you actually enjoy doing sciences more, etc because you may not do so well at it. Human bio has a wide range of courses; unfortunately, if you don't get into second entry professional programs, teachers college, or grad school, you will face one very tough job market. I think that's important to know too. Studying for the sake of educating oneself is always the ideal, but that may not be feasible for most people. That's just my two cents on that.

[Guest Delirious]

Thanks for your replies and keep it coming!

 

Now then, if I need to get into life sciences @ UofT I need to get more than 85% to be on the safe side. :/

 

And the human biology program doesn't provide a really good 'hirable education' (as Macleans describes it). Which one of the life sciences would be a good choice for getting a decent paying job then?

 

And speaking of standardized tests, is there anyway that I can present my SAT scores and get UofT to consider them? I'm an OAC student though...

[Guest h1979]

Some of the programs at the Unversity of Toronto are not designed to prepare students for graduate work. For example, the Genes, Genetics and Biotechnology Program in Human Biology is intended to provide a broad overview of the impact of biotechnology on humans. This program would be excellent preparation for students interested in professional schools or other careers that do not require advanced courses in biochemistry and molecular biology.

[Guest Akane200]

SATs? Sorry, no. They look at only your OAC marks.

 

I don't think they would begrudge you on not doing well on A&G, if that's not one of the OAC courses for the 6 that they base the average on. So, I guess the best you can do now is just to finish the course.

 

Now, why are the cut offs different at the different campuses? This is because most people choose to go to the St George Campus for a variety of reasons: close to home, more competitive, reputation of colleges, etc. There are much more people who apply to st george than to any of the other campuses. The facilities on the downtown campus are in many ways better. However, the trade off is much more fierce competition, and very large class sizes (average class size in first year is 500 to 1500). I didn't mind the class sizes that much though.

 

In my opinion, I think if you do attend U of T, regardless of the campus you are registered at, you should do at least one course in St. George campus for the experience. It's the whole "old university" feeling.

 

Does it really matter what campus you choose? I have to say yes. If you like the downtown, more competition, tougher to get marks, then St. George is the place for you. If you want easier courses, classmates that aren't as smart or competitive, smaller lecture halls, then the other U of T campuses are better for you. Does it make a difference for professional schools? I know some people will argue that it will not, but I really won't want to try vouch for it. Some just people like the downtown campus more given the choice and prestige associated with certain colleges (mind you, certain colleges charge more fees as well).

 

Good luck!

[Guest Delirious]

Akane, thanks a lot for yr reply =)

 

Yes, St. George is first pick for me...Scarborough is more of a backup plan... =O

 

And speaking of the college system at UT...does it matter which one I pick? Are the mark requirements diff for each one? Other than user fees...is one better than the other?

 

Is it true that Pharmacology gives u the most job opportunities after graduation compared to the other life science programs?

 

And can someone gimme some feedback about the Molecular biology and genetics program, biochem, and microbiology programs at UT?

 

Finally...does anyone know anything bout the quality of the science program at Waterloo and McMaster?

 

Much thanks again.

[Guest JD]

Which U of T college (Trinity, UC, St. Mike's etc.) you apply to really doesn't matter... it doesn't help (or restrict) you in terms of taking any courses, applying to programs later, etc. The prestige part is mostly a personal thing, too. Although mark requirements might differ (slightly) among colleges, most people don't really consider students in one particular college "better" than any other one. I applied to colleges based on what sort of scholarships they offered. A couple of them (e.g. Trinity) have $6000 scholarships... Also, if you plan to live in residence, then you might like Innis because it's apartment style, as well as being nice and new.

[Guest cammi51]

what are the admission averages to get into Trinity College, in general?

[Guest JD]

I believe it's low 90's for life sciences... should probably be similar for other disciplines as well.

[Guest MAR]

One distinct advantage of Waterloo is their coop programme. It takes a little longer but if you don't get into to medicine you graduate with experience and in some cases a lower dept load. They were also voted number one in the comprehensive category by Maclains. I did kinesiology, which also has a pre-health option but does not leave much room in the way of electives. However, I did take biochemistry, genetics and the prerequisite courses for most Canadian Universities including English. It also can lead to very lucrative jobs.

 

From what I have been told by the admissions offices (and maybe the moderators can confirm this) it doesn't matter where you go to school, unless it changes your residency, a grade is a grade. From my experience, the more you enjoy a course the higher your grades tend to be. You also want to consider what is available outside of the class room, as most med schools these days are not just looking for book worms.

[Guest Liana]

One thing you might want to consider is, do you enjoy high school science labs? If you did, especially chemistry labs, then something like biochem or micro might be enjoyable. But if you don't like high school labs, then you will probably loathe university labs, which are a huge part of the curriculum in programs like micro and biochem. These programs tend to be a bit more industry-geared, so they will "prepare you" for employment if you don't get into medicine, but they may also be more difficult to do well in, which may impair your ability to get good marks.

 

Schools like Queens and Mac (and Waterloo, I believe, although I'm not totally sure on this one) are good if you're not quite sure what you want to do just yet, or want a lot of flexibility in your program. This is especially true for more general, bio sci-type programs. At Queens, I know, you can take pretty much any course that you want to, whereas U of T is a lot more restricted in what you can or can't take. Programs like biochem and micro only allow you a few courses to pick from, which is good if you're indecisive or if you want to follow a program of someone else's design, but bad if you want the freedom to take what you like. I started in biochem, but there wasn't nearly enough freedom for me, so I shifted to molecular bio & genetics, and later to general bio, where I have the flexibility to take pretty much whatever i want. Molecular genetics can be an industry-geared program as well, and can be advantageous because a lot of schools don't offer this program, but i know at my school, probably about 60-70% of people who originally begin in molecular bio, end up switching to another program. It's not so much that this is a hard program, as that it is a program that you can't really understand until you have immersed yourself in it. If you were to enrol in this program, make sure you do it at a school with some flexibility, so that if you end up disliking it, you can change to something else.

 

One question that may help you, is asking yourself what is your favourite type of learning. Do you prefer courses that require memorization (like biology and languages), or do you prefer the theoretical (like math or chemistry)? If you like memorizing, molecular genetics or general bio would be good for you; if you prefer theorizing, go for biochem. Also, do you like to learn by hands on activities, like labs? Do you like to be able to ask a lot of questions to your teachers and organize study sessions with your friends? Schools that cater to this style of learning are Waterloo and Queens, and a lot of medium-sized schools. If you'd rather sit back in class and just listen to the teacher, or do a lot of reading on your own, and don't need a lot of feedback on your progress, UofT may fit your style.

 

Hope that helps.

[Guest queens01]

I did my undergrad at Queens (life sci) and I

thought it was really too competitive. This was

because when I was there they kept on trimming

the class size. They would announce the cutoff marks

partway through the year and the bottom dwellers

would get really frantic. Of course if you were

aiming for meds you wouldn't be one of them, I

just thought this got a bit stressful. They'd have

people stealing notes from the library, or calling

bomb threats in the middle of exams, etc. Now

that the school has a large police surveillance team

during exams it's gotten better though.

 

anyway, queen's life sci is not the easiest road to

meds at all. There are few electives and the core

course load really focuses on human sciences, like

anat, physio, biochem, micro, and pharm. If you

aced life sci then lots of meds stuff would be like

remedial.

 

Getting a bit off topic, but I believe the best way

to get accepted to meds is to go to a small school

(i.e. Laurentian, Windsor) and take tons of "bird

courses" to pad the marks. Worry about the meds

workload later

[Guest bad hombre]

yeah, i totally agree with queens01. I was in lifesci for first year, and honestly most of the people in the program are real jerks. A lot of them (not all, there are some nice people) ONLY study and will do anything to get ahead of the game. This causes the atmosphere to be very tense and not very enjoyable at all. Plus those marks are pretty hard to get. A couple of my housemates failed out of lifesci last year and are now doing "general arts".

 

Myself I decided to switch into Biology. The program is much more flexible and allows me to take a lot more bird courses, which I think is a huge factor in allowing me to get good marks this year. And lets face it, good marks can make you or break you. a 4.0 doesn't guarantee anything, but anything lower than a 3.5 does: a (virtually) guaranteed rejection

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Yeah - I've heard that phenomenon from a number of people who did "premed-type" (ie Life Sciences, Human Biology, Biochemistry) degrees at the "top" Universities in the country. The advantage of such programs is that you do cover a lot of the medical school curriculum. The disadvantage is that the same curriculum will be covered in medical school, and there can be a high degree of competition at such schools as many students hoping to get into medicine eventually do such degrees.

 

I found a nice compromise in going to a mid-sized University (Dalhousie) that still had a medical school. The presence of a medical school gives you faculty, research, and counselling resources you wouldn't find at a smaller school. But the mid-sized schools such as Dalhousie, U of O, McMaster, Calgary don't seem to have the same all-out viscious competitive horror stories originating from some of the larger schools (I've never heard any stories from Queen's, but I have from U of T and McGill - no offense intended towards these two schools but I have heard stories. Admittedly, this is not based on first-hand knowledge but stories from classmates in medicine.)

 

As for taking bird courses, I wouldn't suggest it. I've seen people try to take classes based on they're being easy, only to find that such classes aren't a source of strength or interest - quite often they don't get the marks they thought they would.

[Guest shannon]

I went to UofT and after 2nd year I transferred to MAC where I eventually got into Med school. UofT is an excellent school but the students there are very intense, rude, hyper competitive and hard to understand. I think about 70% of the entire downtown campus and something like 85% of the life science program is Asian students, many who came over from Hong Kong. They pretty much stick to each other, arent friendly, obviously super brainy but create a very hostile environment (never help people outside of their asian clique etc). Its funny though because no matter how the rest of us tried to fit in and befriend them, we were simply " the stupid Canadian kids" Oh well I guess they get the last screw as Med schools have made a very strong effort to admit people who have excellent interpersonal and english language skills. This is primarily the reason why the latest Canadian med school profile shows that less than 6% of all med school students (people who got admitted) are Asians whereas 69% of applicants are asians.

 

Choose your school carefully because sometimes your fellow students will make or break the experience

 

Shannon Mac year 2

[Guest queens01]

well, I'm not going to run around with claims of racism

or discrimination but as an immigrant from HK I think

I ought to try and balance the scales here...

 

The education system in Asia stresses memorization

from an early age and implements tough standardized

exams. I'd say many of them at U of T are not "super-

bright" but "experienced in studying".

 

I am sorry to hear that they were unfriendly to you,

but I think that is amplified by the "high school"

nature of U of T. Unlike most of the other Ontario

universities, many U of T students live at home

and just go to school for classes (much like high

school). At Queen's, though my experience was

not terrific, I felt that since almost everyone lived

alone it helped in mingling with others... In any

case I thought the orientals here were not so

exclusional.

[Guest JD]

Shannon,

Where did you find that 6% number? I don't know a lot about most Canadian schools, but the U of T meds class sure has a heck of a lot more than 6% Asian students. And it's the same at Queen's (you can go to the websites of the Class of 2004 and 2005 and skim through the class composite).

 

I agree that many Asians that are new to Canada tend to stick to each other, but that is only natural, is it not? They are with others who they can most easily communicate with, have common interests, etc. The ones that have either been in Canada from a young age or were born here (like myself) usually don't have Asian "cliques" or hang out only with other Asians. I'd surely be more comfortable and have more in common with a group of "Canadians" rather than those that have just immigrated here from Hong Kong. And I don't think we're inferior at communicating or have worse "interpersonal skills" than a typical white Canadian. Generalizing all Asians as being "rude and unfriendly", etc. would be a pretty ignorant thing to do. I doubt that's what you were doing, but if you read your message again you can probably see how some might interpret it that way.

[Guest Pep]

Whenever there's a post on this site about a high school student needing info about university, there's always seems to be talk about competition, especially at the bigger schools.

 

What i'm really wondering is how some of you managed to get through the EXTREME competitive atmosphere at some of these schools.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi Shannon,

 

Just wanted to welcome you to the forums, and that I hope you'll be able to continue contributing your perspectives to the crazy process of med school admissions!

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Shannon]

Hello Ian

 

Please feel free to use me as you see fit (for the board that is! ha ha) :lol

 

I'd be glad to answer any questions about Mac or the medical school admissions process, a fine board you have here Ian!

 

To the others who responded to my comments, I hope I didn't offend anyone but I call it like I see it (and I am in no way racist infact I am half Japanese) but I think the students who do come from HK should really try to get involved in the school and welcome the opportunity to learn about Canadians and us. We tried to invite them to events and activities but they really wanted nothing to do with anyone outside of their groups and constantly made fun of us for not driving the BMW's and Porsches that they had (who knows where the money came for that). Its just a really cold and unfriendly enviroment downtown and I think a prospective UofT student should go to the campus and sit in on some classed and then they will know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Good Luck to everyone!

 

Shannon

[Guest queens01]

Here's what I know based on my knowledge

of HK people. The rich kids, their luxury cars

come from their parents of course, and many

became rich from the real estate boom of the

early 90s and sudden rush of business opportunities

in China. Well, with that kind of money even if

they can't get into med school here they can pay

their way into the US...

 

Despite the fact that I am jealous of their

inherited wealth, I do have a bit of sympathy

for their situation. Many of them come from

single-parent families (father is away overseas

doing business) and instead of love and guidance

they often just get $.

 

Anyone know if UBC undergrad is similarly filled

with "Asian cliques"?