back door to medicine

[Guest RAK2005]

Ian,

 

I've heard different opinions on your comments (re: getting a grad degree during residency) from a program director. His comments were to the effect that a MSc is highly recommended as an INCOMING qualification, or can be completed concurrently during residency. This was in orthopedics which is a fairly competitive specialty. He also mentioned that research proficiency is a highly attractive quality to possess. My feeling is that continuing onto a MSc during or before residency is becoming an unwritten rule in competitive programs.

[Guest Jennifer Y]

I know of 2 people in Med. who went ahead to do grad studies b/c they were rejected from med due to their poor GPAs. One went on to MSc and reapply and got into med; the other went and got her PHD and reapply and got into med; both at the same school. The one with the PHD was sought after by UT, but she turned it down and stay in her hometown as she has no interest to do further research. For these two, this plan of action worked for them and their goal was med, never research. They just did whatever was necessary for them to be competitive in their med. application. On the other hand, one person who really wanted to do research went into med; once in, he transferred to the MD/PHD program in his second year, to the great disappointment of his parents.

[Guest OOP]

Oh yah, I'm sure his parents were REALLY disappointed. "My little Bobby's thrown away medicine to do an MD/PhD. Where is he going to find work? I'm cutting his allowance." Whatever.

 

Your story doesn't wash with me: Why would someone spend 4-5 years of their life doing a PhD if all they wanted was med. A Masters I can see, but a PhD?? Sounds like that person has a few underlying issues with self-esteem and dealing with failure/rejection if you ask me. UT has an MD/PhD program that graduate students can transfer into if they successfully apply (and get into) med in the intervening years. Sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me.

[Guest jennifer Y]

To OOP:

Not making it up; her father is a GP and 4 years younger brother is already in med in the same school. She did not have to do her MSc, just got her PHD and finished at age 26, and then got into med.

As for the young person that switched into PHD/MD program after his 1st yr in med, his father is also a GP who billed about $400 thousand last yr and was hoping that the son would follow, or become a specialist.

Unbelievable isn't it what different people will do.

[Guest OOP]

Oh and another thing. It makes me sick to think that people with poor GPAs are relegated to grad school. Everyone chooses grad school for different reasons, but I hate to think some people do it because they're biding their time. Those people usually get a big wake-up call in their first year of grad studies. Contrary to popular belief, if you don't "produce" in grad school, you don't graduate. Masters, maybe - (I've read some pretty weak Master's theses), but never with a PhD. Compare that with medicine, these schools do everything possible to help their students convocate. It is nearly impossible, once in, to get kicked out of medicine. If you don't believe me, ask any current med student.

[Guest OOP]

Yah, Ok, you make a good point. If that is the case, the father has got some issues. Was he planning on handing down his practice to his son or something? It still seems unbelievable that someone, who only wanted med, would do a PhD and walk away from research altogether. The experience is one thing but it is puzzling. Seems a little over ambitious. Why would she just upgrade her pre-reqs or rewrite the MCAT? Like I said before, sounds like an insecurity to me: the kill-two-birds-with-one-stone approach (enhanced their application and feeling like their education is still progressing)

[Guest jennifer Y]

To OOP:

You are right about the two birds with one stone thing.

When the sister was rejected the first time she applied to med. the brother was not taking any chances when he graduated from IB high school, he instead did his undergraduate down the States and then he apply to med in his hometown Canadian school.

While it is hard to be kicked out of med. it does happen as I have personal knowledge of this happening to two people from the same school but in different years. These students even hired lawyers to fight their cases for them; but the school won in the end. However, the med school did give these 2 people many many chances to make up their F grades, which they were failed to do.

[Guest Liana]

Normal Person, there may be some validity to your observation that the students who get into medicine straight after 3rd year tend to more frequently end up pursuing the specialties with longest residencies, but this is certainly not an absolute truth, and you're overlooking many of the factors involved. People pursue specialties for a variety of reasons: maybe they're thoroughly interested in that specific section of medicine, maybe they're eyeing the earning potential, maybe there's some other reason involved.

 

Applicants who get in after 3rd year have less chance to build up the non-academic component of their applications, so *in general* most applicants from 3rd year need to be especially strong in terms of GPA. However, there are people applying from 3rd year who didn't go straight into the BSc from high school, but perhaps pursued other degrees, travelled, worked, etc, which would provide them with a lot of the other background to help them stand out.

 

The point is, most 3rd year applicants will have to have stronger GPAs than the average accepted student, to make up for the lack of "life experience" (ie, not only extracurricular involvement, but the long-term living experiences over and beyond that of the average applicant). Now, someone with an exceptional average in 3rd year can apply to, and likely get accepted to, medicine in that year, but there's no rule that you have to apply as soon as possible. Most of the students I know with the high averages tend to ENJOY the material they are learning, to the point where they would like to get involved in the acquisition of scientific information, in a graduate school atmosphere. Whether they choose to go straight into medicine or build some other skills in a graduate degree (whether or not they choose to enter medicine afterward) is totally a personal choice, and certainly not just a product of their marks, aspirations for raising a family, or even their desire for high income.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Excellent point. I do know someone who just did a Masters to improve their MD chances. . . they ended up hating their grad studies and ended up getting kicked out of the program. Didn't really help out their next application to medicine!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Excellent point OOP. I do know someone who enrolled in a Masters program just to improve their MD chances. . . they ended up hating their grad studies and ended up getting kicked out of the program. Didn't really help out their next application to medicine! Too bad, he was a really nice guy. . . but he did go into the Master's program for the wrong reasons.

 

Ian - just to respond to your point about research and residencies. From what I've heard you're right - there are many specialty programs that tend to be more 'clinical' than others which are more 'research' oriented. . . some programs require research, others don't. My views have been a wee bit warped recently by a friend of mine who's shooting for Cardiac Surgery at U of T. . . for that program apparently, research IS critical.

[Guest Beaver]

I think most things have been covered regarding why one would pursue a Ph.D.. I just wanted to say that I have made the following unfortunate observation through my work as a med school instructor. Some med school students (much more than I would wish) unfortunately cannot see past their own ass:holes. Just because you took a route and paved out a life you would like to follow does not mean the rest of world should do it your way.....and no you are not the ultimate supreme intelligent being sent to guide all of us ape-like grad students who eat with our feet. Can't they weed out the arrogant self centered people from med school somehow?

[Guest OOP]

Sure!! Just have the interviewer ask the question: "Given the number of med school applications we receive, how would rate yourself, on a scale of 1-10, in reference to the other applicants?" Anyone who says 10 deserves a zero on aptitude.

[Guest mathman]

if 2000 people apply for 100 spots, then only the top 5% gets in. That's a rank of 9.5/10. If I think I ought to get in, I should be at least 9.5 right? Rounding to the nearest integer gives 10. If I said maybe 6 or 7, that means I don't think I am up to par to the "cutoff".

 

There are plenty of obnoxious people who can act normal for 30 minutes in their interview. I think a better way would be for them to answer a verbal personality test, and they only have 5 seconds to reply so there isn't time to pretend they are humans and not gods.

[Guest U of O med]

That is the question, isn't it?

 

Well here's my take on the issue... I personally belive that anyone who completes and MSc because his or her marks were not up to standard for medicine is crazy! Why would anyone put themselves through such torture (because for those who have never done graduate work... well it can be quite... well it's not a walk in the park). A year of what some have called "fluf classes", can easily boost a GPA, let alone a weighted GPA enough to make a difference! I know a lot of people who did this in order to get in and guess what... they're in! It works and they are just as good as anyone in the class.

 

Now a word about those who do have a graduate degree. Just because you are doing a graduate degree doesn't mean you are a med wannabe!? Who came up with that? Granted that lately (perhaps the last 10 years or so... based on my info and contacts), a lot of grad students are becoming disenchanted with the academic lifestyle and many, many, many other sources of frustration facing Canadian researchers. It seems to be getting better for them, thank God, but until the situation is remedied can you blame someone if they change their mind? If grad work left a sour taste in their mouth I would say "Get the hell out of there!", as is what they are doing... these people aren't stupid!!

[Guest Grafton]

Ditto.