back door to medicine

[Guest GoodGrief]

I have had a few interviews at different med schools now, and at one of them, the question posed was why there are so many graduate students that are applying to medicine? As a graduate student applicant myself, I cited my need to be think bilingually in both science and medicine by having clinical and research skills to draw from. The response I got back from my interviewing panel was that med school applicants are using graduate studies as a back door to get into medicine. In some ways, it's true - some schools have "special" consideration, bonus marks,and/or separate pools for grad students that increase their odds of gaining admittance. Maybe I'm opening a can of worms here, but what do you think? Is this right? Because of the apparent competition for spots in med school, are they encouraging students to take a Master's for "good", but not "exceptional", students as a stepping tool to get into medicine. I'm often reminded of the joke while doing my science undergrad: What do you call an applicant rejected from medicine? A Grad student.

 

To really light a fire for this discussion, what about those students that seem to know how to work the system? You know what I'm talking about - they take their pre-reqs and then buffer their GPA by taking the more flexible "general science" route rather than taking a "honors" or "specialization" degree. We all know that marks are one of the chief factors in gaining entry into med school and it doesn't matter what program you're in since med school accepts a "diversified" student population anyways. Are applicants smarter than the adcoms, taking GPA-safe courses and a few high-profile extracurricular/volunteering activities that they wouldn't normally do if it weren't for applying to med school? Although med schools don't want competition amonst med students, it seems that the application process promotes that kind of student in the first place. What's your take on all this? Any opinion is welcome.

[Guest tibia]

I don't have the knowledge to comment on your grad student stuff, but I will comment on your other point. I know many people who try to work their way around the system. Some people take all their hard courses in the summer. Not only are these marks not generally counted in the overall GPA, the courses are known to be easier in the summer as well. Also, I know some people that avoided U of T and went to Mac instead to take an easier route to getting higher marks. So far this seems to be true, as their university marks are quite a bit higher than their high school marks. Then there's also other sneaky methods employed by U of T students, most likely forged from the pressure cooker situation they find themselves in... such as false deferals of exams, having connections to so-called "protected" exams that are the same year after year, etc. There are loopholes in the system, and those that know of them can take advantage over and over. And there are people who take easier programs such as general Human Bio degrees.. but if they don't get into med school, they do not have many options with that kind of degree.

[Guest strider2004]

In my experience as an interviewer at Queens, grad school is NOT a back door to medicine. The difference between a grad student and an undergrad student is experience. They've had another 2 or 4 years to understand more about what they want and have decided to apply to medicine again. This shows conviction and motivation. If you spent the time to travel around the world for 2 years and then applied to med school, you would also show conviction because after 2 years of travelling ,you've decided to settle down apply to something that you want to spend your life doing.

 

In the interview stage, we give credit to maturity and maturity can often be credited with age. This is also why mature appliants are often looked upon favourably. If you want to come back to med school when you're thirty and have already started a career somewhere else and though "no, I want to spend my life doing medicine" then you've shown that you've looked at all of your options. This can't always be said for a 3rd year applicant.

 

When that interview panel asks "why do you want to be a doctor?", really think about it. Have you thought about being a research scientist or a paramedic or a computer programmer or whatever you were studying? Because down the road in medicine you're going to wonder what your life would have been like if you did something else. Hopefully then, you would have realized that you made the right ecision. Hopefully.

 

I won't comment on the course selection thing because I think that med schools should adjust grades for difficulty.

[Guest GoodGrief]

I agree, strider2004, most grad applicants are looked at favorably in terms of maturity, commitment, and motivation. I do have some reservations though that would-be applicants know this and do a grad degree for this reason. At the end of fourth year, a person has three options if med-bound and they are unsuccessful in gaining admitance: 1. give-it-up and do something else, 2. take a year to improve their application (e.g. upgrade pre-reqs, volunteer more, rewrite the MCAT, diversify their experiences, etc...), and 3. continue on with their education with grad school. IMHO, grad school offers more options than taking an extra year to upgrade courses, although this too can be viewed as conviction and determination.

 

Sure, I've looked at other careers. I spend time in the Canadian Reserves, played in a successful band in my hometown, and even thought about life as an academic. I've think I've had more time than most applicants to think about what I want to do as a satisfying career for the rest of my life. I was, however, surprised by the implications of the comments I received from the interviewing panel though. To suggest that grad school is a back door to medicine is a little offensive to me, though I think there are a lot of people that share this opinion.

[Guest extracellular matrix]

I have absolutely no proof for this, but I think certain med schools do give higher weighting to marks from harder or more established sources. I know they all say that officially they give no preference, but who knows what goes on beyond closed doors. For example, I think the toronto adcom looks down upon applicants from the scarborough u of t campus. I've heard of people with mid 3.9x GPAs applying from scarborough who didn't even get an interview, as alot of people seem to think that the scarborough campus has very little competition and is thus easier to get a higher mark. In fact, some people I know from highschool went to schools such as Western and U of T Scarborough for this very reason, and they seem to be doing much better than expected.

[Guest Da Birdie]

Here is UofA's scoring system:

-----------------------------------------------------

Cumulative average of university years: 10%

Prerequisite course 25%

MCAT 15%

Interview 25%

Essay 15%

Reference Letters 5%

 

Total 95% (without a graduate program)

M.Sc. 2%

Ph.D. 3%

Total 100%

-----------------------------------------------------

In this case grad degrees DO officially make a difference!

 

(Many other schools are also more lenient on grad student's undergrad gpa's...) so it IS sort of a backdoor

[Guest applicant]

My experience from the middle of this process:

There are two types of grad applicants to meds. First, who always wanted to be doctors, others.. who had other careers in mind. Oversimplifying again, typically PhD applicants are the ones who thought about adding medicine to their arsenal during grad school. Applicants with MScs (especially if in a health-sciences field) are very often the ones who always had med school in mind. Troubles with GPA, MCAT (most often LOW verbal), not enough motivation, didn't apply to enough schools... U pick the excuse.

 

Yet, these folks (MD wannabe MScs) do not get a free ride. I know of someone well qualified with a good masters who didn't get in this year (I think a combo of low motivation and not enough schools). GPA might count for less, but publications (at UofT, 1 first author pretty much a min.), ref. letters from the supervisor (who are typically ANTI-med-wannabe-grad-students) and rewriting an MCAT ~5 yrs after taking orgo are a lethal combination. And these folks have not relented to anything but entry into meds despite failure, and tough grad work (especially if they want to be studying something else). So they should get browny points for stamina.

 

PhD applicants.. I simply haven't met a single one who wanted an MD all aLONG and still has enough good publications and his/her supervisor's support (ref. letter). These folks have multiple reasons to combine medical training to the PhD, most of them well thought about during years of grad school. But they can never be good meds applicants with no direct interest in grad school. Further, they should also get points for motivation with wanting to continue school after 5+ years of benchwork and writing MCAT 6+ yrs after taking general sciences. I am one of them, and am scared as hell of competing with the undergrads on my first MCAT.

 

So it is more than just a year or two of extra school which makes these candidates worth a second look.

[Guest Zack2006]

It would be interesting to know the percentage of grad students who have applied or plan to apply to medical school. I don't want to hazard a guess but the number would be incredibly high. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of undergrad science students want meds just as bas as the polysci kids want law. I personally don't know of any students who enter undergrad with great enthusiam for a career in the lab. This is certainly not to say that some grad students don't enjoy their work but lets be honest - as the rigours of undergrad competition batter the GPA a grad school route to meds becomes awfully appealing.

 

Is grad school a back door? Not at all. It is well known that most med schools make exceptions for grad students with lower marks and MCAT scores or even actively recruit grad students with special admission categories. Although it is not a back door I would definitely call it the path of least resistance for SOME students set on meds who didn't get in after undergrad and have few other options.

[Guest Mark]

As an undergrad applying to med school, it ticks me off that a lot of my competition is from MSc. and PhD. students. I know that doesn't sound to nice, but what it means for me is that my GPA/MCAT/autobio. has to be that much better so I can compete with someone who is a.) older than me (more mature)

b.)has likely had more relevant experience

and c.)has those nice grad marks and publications

 

Hey, I do recognize that a Msc. or PhD. gives somebody the chance to 'make up' for what they didn't do as well in undergrad, but I feel that these grad students should be placed in a separate pool where they compete for a limited number of spots specifically for them.

 

Why do I say this? Because there are PLENTY of capable people in undergrad who get shafted by med schools because the competition is pretty fierce in part because of grad students and students who have taken additional degrees in interest areas (joke courses) to subsequently boost their grades.

 

Furthermore, the older somebody is when they get into medical school, then the older they will be when they graduate and will likely be ableto practice for fewer years than a younger person. Tax dollars subsidize med schools to educate the future doctors so wouldn't you rather see somebody who is able to practice for 45 years than somebody who is able to practice for 35 years? You'd think the younger person would be a better investment because they would be able to devote more time throughout the rest of their lives to medicine. However, the elitism of the medical profession comes through once again, and schools make it a priority to choose people who are 'certain of their choice' and have had the life experience to be certain that this is the career for them. C'mon, you're not choosing the first six people to walk on Mars, you're choosing people who will be able to mend this 'health crisis' by devoting as much time as possible.

[Guest strider2004]

Mark,

 

It's actually the 'health crisis' that's provoked many schools to prefer older applicants. An older applicant realizes that there are fewer years left in his/her career so naturally they would most probably pick the specialty that would maximize that career. The shortest residency is in family medicine and gee, that's where the greatest shortage is. So by choosing older applicants, meds schools are hoping that their students would pick family medicine over other specialties and repopulate the FPs in Canada. A nurse once told my friend "the best doctors are necessarily the youngest"

 

As for undergrads getting shafted by grad student applicants to med school, this would only be true if you suddenly had an entirely new cohort of grad students applying to med school. There has long been a history of grad students applying to med school. that's just a fact of life. The grad student with a 3.6 GPA will beat out the undergrad with the 3.6GPA(everything else being the same). So...the undergrad goes to grad school, reapplies and beats out the next undergrad with the 3.6 GPA. To say that a grad student will beat an undergrad who is clearly superior is simply not true. If you look at most med schools, you'll find that the vast majority of students have only an undergrad degree or 3 years of school. We only have like 5-10 people in our class of 80 with a MSc, none with a PhD.

[Guest Lawgirl79]

It's ridiculous to suggest that people use grad school as a 'backdoor' to medicine. Not everyone in the sciences wants to be a doctor, and I suspect even some who do want to explore another area in depth before settling decisively on medicine. Grad school is not exactly a walk in the park, either--they don't just hand out degrees.

 

I'm in law school now, and while I am contemplating applying to medicine, I certainly didn't go in with that intention. It's not as if I set out to boost my CV by acquiring a law degree. It's really hard work.

 

Moreover, I think that older applicants with several degrees and more experience probably come off better in interviews. Maturity is always a good thing. My boyfriend teaches med students ethics and the younger ones bring newspapers to class and sit with their feet up on the desk.

[Guest beaver]

I think some premeds have tunnel vision. Not all people base their whole life around getting into med school, the large part of the population could care less about being a doctor. It is certainly not the only or by far the "best" profession. I think majority of people do grad school and other things BECAUSE they want to (personal career goals ie research academics etc) not because they are obsessed premeds, thinking of any possible angle to get into med school and impress a few wanks for 45 minutes in an interview.

 

The Beav

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Excellent point. I spent March break in Montreal, and had the opportunity to hang out with a bunch of grad students/post-docs from McGill. One of the postdocs was saying he'd taken some flack from Med students who'd thought they were better than him and that he was a grad student trying to 'backdoor' the system. . . thing is he's a well-published researcher who completed his PhD at either Oxford or Cambridge (can't remember which one.) Absolutely ridiculous.

 

I would like to once again point out that is the exception to the rule. . . most med students are NOT like that.

[Guest Zack2006]

Hey Lawgirl,

 

While I absolutely agree that maturity is a wonderful asset for life, let alone a med school interview, I am surprised that you would find it ridiculous to suggest that students use grad school as a backdoor to meds. Why is this so hard to believe? I can only assume by your categorical dismissal of this suggestion that you haven't had the opportunity to talk to many grad students about their future plans - which most often includes applying, reapplying, going to Ireland, etc. You may not have have the chance to talk to a grad student because they were off tracking down their supervisor for that reference letter they were promised or on their way to Kaplan to work on VR. And lawgirl, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if you are in fact planning on applying to med school you must realize that in addition to not receiving the preferential treatment accorded to grad students, your law marks - considered undergrad - may ultimately drag down your GPA calculation. I don't think this is fair to you.

I am not suggesting that grad school is an easy route just that for many, it is the best and only available means to turn a dubious B.Sc. into a rewarding career. The reality is that very few students begin a science undergrad "aiming" to do research. Meds is the goal whether you want to admit it or not. Grad school ends up, rather unfortunately, becoming an efficient means to an end.

[Guest the beaver]

UWOMEDS2006

 

Just curious to hear an opinion from an experienced med school student. I wonder is grad school really such a backdoor that everyone thinks it is. After all, the majority of students who do get in are undergrads right? Maybe all this resentment people have towards grad students is unwarranted.

 

I myself am a Phd student (neuropharmacology) and applied for med school this year. I completed my post doc fellowship and my interests are within clinical research. As such I will use the MD degree for enhanced funding, more in depth clinical knowledge. I just find it odd that there is so much resentment towards older students and grad students who may make up such a small minority of applicants.

 

Interestingly, one of my roomates is a Bsc premed "type" and although he loves to blame the system, I think a large part of his problem is his level of maturity. Not to say that all undergrads are immature as I met a lot of amazing undergrads during my med school interviews.

 

You may know my roomate as he likes to post on this message forum with his dribble drabble resentment etc.

(I do thank him for showing me this fantastic resource yesterday, I wish I had known about it during interviews) He was bragging about his posts that he showed me that I found frankly very offensive.

 

So I guess my point in all of this (sorry about the chitter chatter !) is that I think the bulk of the competition comes from your fellow undergrads and from what I see they provide plenty of competition. Not only from a intellectual point of view but also their maturity and true desire to practice medicine. UWOMEDS please correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think that admissions people look at grad degrees and say "boom your in!". I think they still look at the total package with little credit to the grad degree if the applicant is substandard in other areas.

 

In short leave us poor grad students alone we are just trying to get by also and are not out to "steal" your seats from you, we were Bsc's once, we know whats its like

 

For those of you who have survived to reach the end of this post, sorry for the length.

 

the beav

[Guest the beaver]

I apologize I didn't mean to add an extra year to your education!!

 

The message was for UWOmeds2005 not 2006

 

The beav

[Guest AniyaSG]

Grads aren't always a strain on the admissions system, many schools don't even take into consideration graduate degrees when granting interviews and never ask for any details. They simply go from the UG record. I have a completed MSc and none of the schools I applied to asked for any list of publications or any details regarding my grad studies. It only came up during interviews. Grad studies aren't the great bonus to application that some of you think... a really crappy undergraduate record may still sink you even after stellar grad studies.

[Guest IF]

Personally, I think grad school in no way has affected my application. I say this because I was admitted to med school in my first year of Masters. But could not go to the school because I was refused a deferral and was not allowed by the med school to drop my masters. So, at least this says that masters has screwed me. I'm reapplying this year and none of the Ontario schools has given any indication of a more favourable consideration given that I'll complete my degree this June. In fact, I'm worried about not getting admitted again this year, since every year is different. The truth is that for candidates with already competetive GPA and MCAT, grad experience really adds nothing except more topics for conversation during the interview, where we are bombarded with questions like: do you like to work independently or with other people in research, tell me about your research, what's so meaningful about it, why do you do a masters degreee, why a degree in this field, why don't you want to continue with research, what's the difference between research and medicine......on and on and on. Basically, masters is just like another job experience or extracurricular activity that you can talk about. Furthermore, for a candidate with competitive GPA and MCAT and extracurriculars who would otherwise get an interview applying as an undergrad might not get an interview as a grad in Toronto. This could be due to slightly weaker grad work in comparison to other grad applicants, or poor luck that no good publications came out from the work. With UWO and Queens, I can say for sure that grad work is not given consideration when deciding on who get interviews since it's all automatic by computers anyway. Ottawa will consider you if your undergrad GPA is horrible but you have done amazing grad work. So bottom line is, if you chose grad work, make sure you work hard and get good publications because it has the potential to kill your application if you don't. Grad work is only helpful for 1 or 2 schools if you did amazing grad work.

[Guest Duff]

Here's how it works:

 

Undergrad

+

MSc.

+

PhD.

+

MD

=

Perma student. Get a life!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Or, it makes for a person who loves being a student and contributes to human knowledge through their grad work.

 

To answer 'the beaver,' it seems to me that there are only a very limited number of medical schools where grad work can compensate for a poor undergrad, and for those schools you have to have some phenomenal grad work to compensate. I've heard U of T, Mac and Calgary look very favourably on grad work. . . but that is just unconfirmed rumour. I'm fairly certain for U of T and Queen's NO advantage is conferred (other than additional research experience on the autobiographical sketch and in the interview.) Most of the med schools I researched last year are pretty explicit about looking at ONLY undergrad marks. . . most of my follow med students who completed grad degrees were good UG students as well.

 

That being said, I think doing grad school is a popular option for those who don't get into meds after 4th year. That was the case for a couple of masters students who worked in the lab I worked in. For them, however, it was not a "backdoor" but rather something to do in the year or two it would take for them to get in. For one of them, the problem was the MCAT. They figured they do a Masters (which would not hurt their meds application, but not necessarily help it) while taking the time to reapply. For the other student, I think it was more a case of them being a well qualified applicant but not making the cut for the various reasons discussed repeatedly on this board (ie not gelling with the interviewers, having a bad day on the day of the interview, essay not perceived well by the people marking it, luck, etc.) Unfortunately that is a part of med school applications. . . Anyways, for this second Masters student I knew Grad school was more about doing something productive with the time it would take to apply again rather than using it as a "backdoor" to medicine. Grad school also offered the chance to apply for grants. . . meaning it was both school and a job for her. . .

 

One last note on grad school - If you do want to do a competitive specialty (ie Plastics, Cardiac Surgery, Opthomology, ENT, Derm,) many of the programs have a significant focus on research. Some specialties even request that you do a PhD during your residency program! You could almost say MD + competitive specialty aspirations = perma student (actually, most medical curriculums now focus on "life-long learning". . . medicine is a constantly evolving field so you really are a "Perma student" as an MD!!) Anyways, having research experience from grad work prior to medical school can make your med/residency years less stressful!

[Guest Lawgirl79]

Hi Zack2006,

 

I just meant that a lot of people go to grad school because they are really interested in something, and want 2 years or whatever to study it in-depth. Many people in my law class have Masters degrees. One of my friends always planned on going to law school (and had the grades to go) but really wanted to a Masters in French literature beforehand. While I'm sure there aren't many med school wannabes studying French lit, I would guess that some may be very interested in something like genetics or epidemiology. What I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be assumed that someone in grad school is planning to use it to improve their autobiographical sketch!

 

About my law degree...yeah, it sucks that it's not considered a grad degree. Having just finished taking 6 three and a half hour exams and writing two giant research papers, I feel a bit PO'd that Canada classifies law as undergrad. However, I have contacted the schools to ask them how they'd look at my grades in light of the fact that I also have a BSc. I've only heard back from Western, but they said they'd use my GPA from whichever degree met the cutoff, which is encouraging. I'm hoping the other schools may have a similar policy (except Mac, who will look at everything). U of T recently changed its law program from an LLB to a JD (the American law degree, which it considered graduate) so I am wondering if that will affect anything...Anyways, sorry for the rambling, I'm sure no one here really cares about law grades, since most sane people wouldn't consider going to law school and med school.

[Guest LLBformein03]

I think UofT has been offering the JD for a long time (early nineties i think). As for it being an undergrad degree at all other law schools, i think equating workload with level of degree is not always true. Meds is also an undergrad degree, so is Phamacy and Dentistry and from what I hear these programs are just as labour intensive as the LLB.

 

So I guess Lawgirl no matter what we do, stick with law go to meds we will be working out butts off (rats!)

[Guest Lawgirl79]

Hi,

 

Medical, law, and dental degrees in the US are all graduate degrees, which reflects the fact that standardized tests and undergraduate work are required to get in to them. I just think the same should apply in Canada. We are using an old British system of classification--in other commonwealth countries, you enter directly into medicine or law from high school, whihc is why they are considered undergrad.

 

Also, U of T only changed its degree to JD in January 2001. Before that, it was an LLB. Check out the website: www.law.utoronto.ca/jd/JDletter.htm

 

Where do you go to law school? I'm at McGill.

[Guest llbtob03]

Hi lawgirl sorry for the confusion, I just remember reading of someone who did their law degree at UofT in 1996 and they called the degree he received a JD. Maybe they let old grads convert it or maybe the author of the article made a mistake. Anways sorry for the incorrect info.

 

I'm attending Osgoode, for the most part its alright. Alot of people have insecurity complexes about not getting in to UofT but I think its a really good program if your interested in other areas outside of corporate. I guess we will see what my next step will be. I got accepted after 2 years undergrad in the sciences and decided to go because I felt my marks weren't quite good enough for med school in ontario. Now my overall average is probably worse, thanks to the brutal marking curve here at Osgoode, I cant seem to crack past a B

 

llbtob03

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Not only do law degrees not count as grad degrees. . . MDs are counted as undergrad degrees as well, at least here as Western. Yep - we're considered undergrads, which means we don't get grad student parking priveleges, perks, or access to the grad club without purchasing a membership (a worthy $25, though). We've got one guy in our class who's completed a PhD and now he's considered to be back in Undergrad!