back door to medicine

[Guest Kirsteen]

Errr, hang on just a sec there UWOMED2005....

 

What about the a cushy, paneled lounge with shnazzy pool table and quite the comfy-looking batch of lecture hall seats? I saw that video--you guys have a luxe life!

 

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Yeah. . . I guess I can't complain too much. But it's still a pain to have to pay $250/year to park in a parking lot which is a 10 minute walk from campus!

[Guest Lawgirl79]

I can totally sympathize, llb03. The marking curve here at McGill is to a B-.

 

About the MD being undergrad--I think that's ridiculous too. If you were applying to law school from medical school, I can't see how it could be treated the same as a BA. That's crazy.

 

The irony for me here is that I probably could have gotten interviews before I began this degree. I had a 3.77 cGPA and lots of publications. It sucks to be 'punished' for going to law school (law school itself is punishment enough). Hopefully the other schools will be like Western and look at both my law and BSc to see if I meet the cut-off...there is hope for us yet, lb03!

[Guest AniyaSG]

Apparently the MD program at McGill is considered a graduate program... but not anywhere else I've seen

[Guest killam]

The second time I applied to Western Meds they told me that my undergrad marks weren't competative enough (sorry I had a 3.5 instead of 3.7). When I called and asked if they looked at the fact that I was applying with a PhD (and had an A+ avg, several publications in top tier journals like Nature Medicine, and an MRC fellowship...) they said they didn't look at an applicant's performance in grad school... How does this even make sense?

 

Besides inventing a time machine so I could re-do undergrad, how did the registrar suggest I could become more competative? "Enrol in a BA to upgrade your undergraduate marks"... you must be fricking joking?!

 

I am currently at Queen's and dream of getting my MD, winning a Nobel, becoming Dean at Western (or better yet Minister of Health) and then dismantling that stupid school piece by piece... talk about having your head so far up your a$$ you can't see the forest for the trees...

[Guest Champ]

I know the feeling. Ph.d from Oxford, >12 publications in high journals, NSERC and Heart and Stroke Fellowship. McMaster told me to go back and improve my undergrad which I completed in 1996.

 

 

Some elements of the process require change. One suggestion would be to create a FAST TRACK PROGRAM for graduate students with MSC or PHD's. Such a program would allow apples to be compared to apples in the application process.

 

Ps. Are you in Medicine, Waiting for an Interview or neither?

 

In any case....good luck with your dream.

[Guest Beaver]

Hi

 

I believe there is a med school in Florida that offers a 2 year fast track med school program for those who have already completed a Phd in the sciences. I'll try in get more info on this. It does make sense to have a fast track program since most doctoral candidates even Teach or TA the initial medschool courses!

 

later

the beav

[Guest killam]

Champ,

 

I am in second year at Queen's now and it is great. My first choice was UofT but the tuition was just too and I figure I can still do some electives there in clerkship... plus those suckers have class to the end of this month.

 

It is a little annoying that despite being able to give lectures to undergrads previously, I now have to sit through them in med school... I wish I got some credit for having done some of this before.

 

I know grad students are always more "competative" than undergrads... a seperate stream at OMSAS would be helpful (rather than just at individual schools, like UofT).

 

killam

 

p.s. the nobel may be a stretch but dean of western is still within reach!

[Guest Beaver]

When and where did you finish undergrad Killam?

 

I've heard that UofT really takes it easy for Grad students that completed their undergrad more than 5 years ago and did their undergrad and/or grad work at UofT. This is of course an unwritten rule as there is supposed to be no bias in where you completed your schooling, but several med faculty have advised me on this point, so I have a tendancy to believe it holds true.

[Guest Lawgirl79]

Killam, I am relieved to hear you got into medicine. Someone with your credentials really deserves to be there. Imagine Western telling you to go back and take undergrad classes! Unbelievable. Totally their loss though, losing someone with publications in Nature Medicine. Good luck with your master plan!

[Guest Normal Person]

Wow! I can't imagine doing all that work - getting a PhD, publications, etc all just to get into med school! On the one hand, you guys are role models for perseverance, but on the other, why would you throw away such successful research careers? Do you guys want to have kids, spend time with your families, have lives?

 

To each his own...but you guys are fu(kin' nuts! I would kill myself if I was in school at the age of 30 . Some live to work, but I work to live. Applicants - these are the type of people you'll meet in med school. Cherish your friends outside of the profession if you want to have any sense of balance in your life.

[Guest OOP]

FYI - people with PhD's are "normal" people too. Quit stereotyping! I highly doubt that anyone would pursue a PhD just to get into med school. C'mon, get real. Just as some people are not MD material, others are not PhD material. I guess you're not the latter and looks like Killam and Champ are both. Kudos to them! BTW, compare your application to theirs when you're about to apply for residency positions. Who's on easy street now? And ask yourself what are you going to do to compete with that??

[Guest OOP]

Dam double negatives...that should read: "I guess you're the latter and looks like Killam and Champ are both 'MD and PhD material'" Uhg!

[Guest strider2004]

Killam,

 

Did you just finish 2nd year or are you writing first yr exams now?

[Guest Normal Person]

I did research in a biochem lab during undergrad and I did not meet any normal PhDs. From my experience, it's the people who get into med school the earliest (i.e. after 3 yrs in Ontario) that most likely go after the high-end specialties. They tend to have the highest in marks in med school, too. Most people doing MSc's in the biological sciences are med school rejects - sorry, but somebody has to stay it. Why did they end up in grad school in the first place? Right, a low undergrad GPA. I don't want to turn this into a bashing grad students post, but I'm sure I'll be more competitive for residencies than my older counterparts. Can you imagine finishing residency close to the age of 40? They'll probably have to use their Canada Pension Plan to pay off their loans. More importantly, as stated on another forum, these people either have no children or children raised by Filipino nannies (no offence to the people of the Philippines - I love you all!). I am a female (in case you haven't noticed) and having a family is going to be a big part of my life. I got in after my 3rd yr. If I got rejected, my plan was to reapply during my 4th yr as well as other fields like optometry, law, MBA etc. Maybe I'm not as fanatical as others, but I wasn't about to revolve my life around getting into med school during undergrad, and now I'm not going to revolve my life over getting into a residency either. I'm happy that Killam and Champ finally got in, but trust me, I don't envy them one bit at all.

[Guest Lawgirl79]

Too bad you didn't end up in law. You'd be perfect. You've definitely got the attitude down pat.

 

As an aside, how do you know that these individuals WANT children? Don't assume that everyone wants what you want. And again, I think it's funny that everyone assumes people in grad school couldn't get in to professional school and are there by default. As someone who lives with an academic, I can assure you that many highly intelligent people have no desire to be lawyers or doctors, and instead go after something that really interested them.

[Guest Champ]

Dear Normal Person,

 

Perhaps not all the graduate candidates actually are med school hopefuls. While I agree than some M.Sc students are doing it as an easy route, I can say with some certainty that people do not embark on a PHd simply to get into medicine. The amount of effort involved in doctoral work is perhaps a little more demanding than you may think. At a personal level, my choice to Apply to medicine (I am not in yet!) arises out of what I percieve to be the future of of cardiac clinical research in the next 15 years. Much of my work focuses on gene therapy and cardiovascular disease so as an MD it would allow me to take my work further in the future where genetic therapy and research will become inextricably linked. At 29, I have completed and M.Sc, Ph.d and 2 years of post doctoral researchand and am happily married. While I understand that I will be a little older than most when residency choosing comes up, I am not convinced that I will be at a significant disadvantage. Furthermore, it can be argued that those with research training would possibly get better INTELLECTUAL jobs in the long run, although this is subjective.

 

In terms of life experiences, friends, working-to-live and all of your other criticisms I think you may be missing the big picture. Perhaps the essence of life is living a full life and not stressing out to be a doctor as fast as possible. Do you honestly believe that once you are qualified life will really begin...you have to live for the moment!

 

In addition, you mention that you applied in 3rd year and that if you did not get in you had alternate career paths mapped out (MBA, Opt., LAW). Surely...this is a clear indicator that despite your excellent grades, your desire to become an MD was not entirely focussed and you were willing to change so easily.

 

One Final Question: Should one of your med school classmates choose do enrol in the MD/PHD program..would you still be as cynical towards them thinking that they had a good memory (to get into MEd School) but did not have the intellectual brainpower to do a Phd...so they waited till Med School to to it then....somehow I dont think so.

 

Sorry for the rant. But your shots went straight for the jugular.

 

 

bye.

 

champ.

[Guest Hmmm]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Most people doing MSc's in the biological sciences are med school rejects..."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

 

That's cold. Your view on this matter is a terribly narrow one.

 

Myself -- I'm a 3rd-year "wet-behind-the-ears" undergraduate student. I have worked in several research labs. Refraining from making generalizations, I will simply say that if I were an adcom member at a faculty of medicine, I would take the vast majority of graduate students I know over my fellow undergrads and I (at UofT) <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> anyday<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. Now obviously, this is probably due in large part to the quality of graduate students with whom I happen to work. And no disrespect is intended towards undergraduate students in general (as I am one, myself!) Just from my observation, many graduate students do take advantage of their added experience to obtain a more mature way of thinking about things. Again -- there are obviously immature grad students, as there are relatively mature undergraduate students. But my point is that I think the added maturity of graduate students may not be as much as "myth" as some of you seem to think.

 

Having said all this, I will also concede that there are a lot of bitter and resentful graduate students out there. I have personally been in several science classes in which TA's have openly expressed their disdain for undergraduate med-wannabes. Given the ridiculously competitive attitudes of many of my peers, I cannot say that I totally blame these TA's.

[Guest MD2006]

I personally know two people who went to medical school starting at the age of thrity, both were married, one had three children, the other four and neither had nannies. One did a residency in radiation oncology and the other internal medicine. So it all depends on the person and the family, you might thinking that these people are "crazy" but if you really want to balance a family and professional life it can be done.

 

I agree with LawGirl: I know many PhD's, MSc's, academic individuals.....from those I know 90% of them had no interest in medicine or any other professional program.

[Guest OOP]

You're too much. Sounds like you have a big case of med head, a nasty affliction that makes you think you're smarter than you really are. I've seen med students do research in the lab; most of them are all thumbs. There are usually the ones who "give up" on a project because it's not working and they can't deal with the failure very well. When it comes to residency positions, any finishing year med student will tell you that marks do not matter, so I highly doubt that you'll be more competitive for residency positions (probably less so). You're nothing but a scrub, plain and simple...I feel sorry for your future husband (or wife - to be politically correct).

[Guest ItsmeMelissa]

Okay everybody, let's chill for a second! The sweeping generalizations that are being made here are really out of line. If I were a Ph.D., I would definitely feel offended by some of the comments being made here. I am certainly offended by the last comment regarding the ability of undergrads to compete for residence positions!

The nature of this board makes it nearly impossible to make accurate judgements about the abilities or characteristics of any of the participants...so let's just quit with the mud slinging!

It is however, quite interesting to hear what the Ph.D's out there are intending to do with their degrees...

[Guest Habraz]

Dear Normal Person,

I was pretty amused by your post. You sound like the be all and the end all of all career paths are into medicine. You said that "let's face it all graduate students are medical school rejects, someone had to say it". Well I am a getting my PhD this year, never applied to medicine before and did not go into graduate school to get into medicine and thought about applying to medical school because of a recent interest in some clinical research experience. Most of your arguments are absurd and not well thought out. I dont mean to be disrespectful to you but I think you are not very well informed. Even if you had bad experiences with some PhD's in the lab that you worked in, you can never generalize. If you do you risk sounding ill informed which I think is now the consensus on this web borad. What is even funnier is the fact that you said medicine is one of several options for you (MBA, law, optometry). So afterall medicine is not the be all and the end all of all career paths is it? I think you need to really get to know yourself and see what you want to do. As far as your chances for residency and your competitive edge, again you don't make a persuasive argument. I think a reasonable person would think that you are posting your feelings and not hard evidence. Most of the PhD guys on this forum can teach their respective desciplines in medical school and for you to pretend that you would get higher marks and do better in a residency is nothing but a self serving feeling to make you feel warm inside.

 

I wonder if you generalized in your interview (if you got one) becuase if you did I would highly doubt you have a chance for admission.

 

sincerely,

Habraz

[Guest killam]

Interesting thread... Champ, OOp, lawgirl etc... I think you and I could be friends

 

Sorry... but reading "Normal persons" comments makes me laugh. You *young* folks really need to stop generalizing. I don't think I am too old at 27 (not old that is for a person with a 4yr BSc and a PhD plus 2 yrs of med school behind me) to do a specialty, have a family, or enjoy life. I made money throughout grad school too so don't worry about my loans... I don't have any. I also have a very wide range of friends in and outside of my career path... why would having a PhD affect this is something I am not too clear about. I think Normal persons comments about nannies is fairly offensive (re the nationality) but if he thinks most specialists (without grad or professional degrees that is) will have time to look after their kids he needs to be a little less naive... you can't have everything in life, and everyone makes choices based on their individual priorities.

 

For me (as a future MD/PhD) I am mainly looking forward to treating patients (the reason I got into clinical medicine from research). I plan on working at an academic centre where I can also have the chance to supervise and direct research. I great sense of reward from helping people face-to-face (I have been doing clinical electives in the summer versus the lab) but I love the intellectual challenge of attacking a disease from first principles and trying to come up with a definitive cure for things like autoimmune diseases, etc. I know this isn't for everyone in medical school, nor should it be... I will hardly be helping to eliminate the shortage of badly needed FPs when I eventually get out of school.

 

I certainly didn't intend to use the grad degree as a "back door" to med school (atleast not once I was in the thick of it). I applied to and got turned down from a couple places after doing my undergrad at McGill. I went into an MSc. program at UofT after undergrad and I absolutely loved it (I transferred to the PhD program rather than graduate and apply to meds)... Grad school was like a billion times than my undergrad experience (in terms of academics.. Montreal is a FUN city). Grad school was certainly more intellectually stimulating than undergrad, you got to interact with profs as a colleague, participate in ground breaking research. The tedium of tissue culture, the months of frustration waiting for the perfect gel or transgenic, working my ass off to write grants for piddly amounts of money... these, and the chance to help the patients in am more direct manner (versus waiting 20yrs for me to design a new viral vector, etc) really drove me to apply to medicine.

 

Medicine certainly benefits by having people from diverse backgrounds in it, whether it be people from the arts, law, science, etc. I would hate to tar all grad students with the "med school rejects" label... people who think like this have generally always gotten their way, and probably go around saying dentist= med school reject, optometrist=med school reject, etc... you need to mature a little bit and realize that people have different goals and ambitions than you do... perhaps the reason I got 3.5 (is this a bad GPA?) and was a "reject" was because I had a lot more fun than you did in undergrad... as you had your observations about the wierd PhDs, i have mine about all he young people in my class... they all wig-out and go party crazy, sleeping around with other becuase they were so busy studying in undergrad they never had a life.

 

Sincerely,

Killam

 

p.s. as for getting into medicine at UofT having done a PhD there... I don't think that makes it easier at all. You really have to show evidence of research productivity (ie. first author papers in good journals) to get accepted in med school... this is probably harder than getting good grades in undergrad since many things (like how well your project will work out) are outside of your hands. I got accepted at UofT but it was just too much money. I do plan on returning for residency however and a faculty/staff position in one of the teaching hospitals in Toronto.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

"Normal Person," the way your comment was worded made me wonder if it was someone posting just for the sake of their own entertainment. . . hoping to get a rise out of some of the people posting here. Otherwise, your opinion really isn't "normal" at all.

 

Having said that, I would like to address the question of who's more competitive for residency spots. . . I think it totally matters on the person. From what I can tell, it doesn't really matter. People get great residency positions with no grad school experience, others with some grad degrees. Totally depends on the person (which from what I've heard is the KEY factor. . . how you are as a person, and how you work with your peers on the floors of the hospitals.) Just in case they were serious, I would like to point out the following:

 

1) Med school marks really don't matter that much for matching to a residency - there are too many variations in the way Med schools give out Marks (H/P/F vs. P/F vs. Mac vs. UBC. . . is it true you guys have a different system out there, Ian?). So even if the 3-year undergrads did get all the top marks, that wouldn't give them an edge. Having a grad degree on your CV might (though I certainly don't think a grad degree is the be-all-and-end-all of being competitive. . .)

 

2) Many top residency programs are now encouraging (expecting?) their students to complete PhDs by the end of their program. . . I've heard that's true at least for U of T Cardiac Surgery (a friend of mine is shooting for that program.) Considering the program directors are often PhD graduates themselves, and/or have lots of friends/associates through research who are PhDs, I doubt they look down on grad students. . . and I don't think those programs would think too highly of med students that look on down on grad students either.

 

3) I have a friend currently doing a PhD at Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship. I'm pretty sure she's planning on studying medicine in Canada when she's finished that. . . as she's also doing grad school before applying to Meds, do you consider her another "med school reject"?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi UWOMED2005,

 

I'd say that the very vast majority of residency programs do NOT expect their residents to complete a grad degree. I can't think of any; not even UBC neurosurgery or general surgery, our only two 6-year residency programs expect that.

 

Most residents in the longer specialties (certainly the surgical specialties, which are the ones I actually know about), encourage and often require an annual research project to be completed by the resident. But this is a far cry from then actually doing a graduate degree; it simply isn't realistic given the other time demands on you. The UBC general surgery program has a one year off for research requirement which extends its residency period to 6 years instead of 5 years.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3