debunking a myth...

[Guest pp15]

to what extent is it true that schools like western and brock have 'easier' undergrad programs than schools like uft and queens?

 

just wondering if anyone has stats as to the success rates of appilicants from different schools?

 

i'm a student at uft, and while i'm really glad i decided to go to uft, i often hear students griping about how they would have had a much better shot of getting into meds had they gone to an 'easier' school.

 

while i'm skeptical as to how valid a complaint this is, I'm curious to get the thoughts of students who have already gone through the admission process.

 

this is my first post, but i've been visiting this board for a couple weeks now. kudos to ian (and everyone else involved)for setting up this forum.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I have some stats for UBC med school, but none for any other Canadian med schools:

 

premed101.com/stats.html#PMUniv

 

As you can see, the lion's share of each year's class comes from a UBC background, but there are a significant number each year that came from comparitively smaller universities.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Liana]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but I'm assuming that uft = U of T?

 

I have heard that U of T tends to have lower class averages than a lot of school, and apparently it's harder to do extremely well (although this may be due to the fact that U of T *seems* to have fewer resources in place for student success - eg, receptive profs, TAs who speak english, other study groups, and a more competitive atmosphere = less helpful peers). However, OMSAS factors this in by awarding higher grade points to lower percentage marks obtained from U of T. (eg, At Guelph an 86% = 3.9, whereas at U of T, an 86% = 4.0). It may be harder to stand out to your reference-granting profs at larger schools like U of T, but there are more activities in which to get involved. I wouldn't say it's harder to get in, although it does provide a totally different atmosphere - perhaps one less receptive to people who might need a little hand holding to get off on the right foot.

[Guest not true]

Correction to Liana's post: 86% from UT is equivalent to 3.9 on the OMSAS scale, NOT 4.0. I think it's the same scale for most of the schools in Ontario.

[Guest JD]

The only school in Ontario giving % grades that has a different grade point scale from the rest is Royal Military College. U of T, Queen's, Western, Waterloo, etc. are alll the same. Also there are some schools that give letter grades only, e.g. York, and so they also have a slightly different conversion scale.

[Guest easier schools]

well, I have a few opinions about this topic. Ian mentioned that med classes don't have many from smaller schools, but maybe that is because high school students aiming for meds have the false belief that it is to their benefit to go to a school that offers meds. Some may think that smaller schools teach less stuff which could be a disadvantage once they get into meds. Let's just worry about getting in first, kids!

 

Suppose we take U of T and Brock, and assume the average entering grade for biology majors is higher for U of T... That probably means any random U of T student would have better academic skills than a Brock student. Now if both schools would like to maintain an average of 70% in their courses U of T must make tougher curriculum and harder tests, right? I'm not talking about huge differences, just something barely noticeable.

 

I know that's a bit of a weak assumption but if my first assumption was right then the same test at U of T would produce more failures at Brock. I don't think schools want a high dropout rate because it would lead to smaller class sizes and less funding than projected.

 

Being from Queen's lifesci I think maybe my courses were a bit tough and if I went to a smaller school I might have gotten a 3-5% boost (which is really big especially if it lifts me over the gap in GPA calculation)

[Guest Snoopy]

I totally agree with you on the tougher grading/testing at UofT and actually at UofT the profs are told to keep the class average around 60-65%. However how many people from Brock or Guelph or Nippising etc get into med school or any other professional program....I think maybe 1 or 2 or none per year for all the med schools. I go to UofT and while I think its a good school, it is really hard as I compare tests with friends that go to Guelph. But I think med schools realize this. A friend of mine who sat on the admissions committee last year said that he would clearly take an average student academically at UofT vs a superstar at Guelph because for comparative purposes, A C+ at UofT is equal to an a+ at Guelph. They are two different worlds academically.

 

So I really dont know what is better, going to harder school not doing as well or going to a less rigourous school and getting better marks.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I would go to the smaller school and get the better marks personally. I've never regretted going to UVic instead of UBC for undergrad, and if I had to do it over again, would choose the same next time as well.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest JSS02]

I think the typical entering average at Guelph is quite high, from what I remember. Not much lower than U of T. Obviously if you compare a U of T engineerng science student vs. whatever the crappiest major at Guelph is then you'd see a big difference, but if you look at a typical life science student from each school then I think they're pretty comparable.

 

At any rate, the difference isn't nearly as big as you think (A+ vs. C+? Come on...).

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I've heard the same as well (the A+ vs. C+ bias for U of T admissions) but think it's just an urban legend told to scare applicants. . . even heard the same from a U of T meds student who argued that isn't the case based on the distribution of students in his first year class.

 

Other than that, I've heard almost NO bias for certain undergrad schools at any med schools. That's certainly not the case for Western or Queen's. . . for both they use your RAW gpa to determine whether you get an interview and almost everything after that is the interview/other factors. I guess saying you had a high average at U of T might impress some members of the admissions committee, but other than that there's really no advantage.

 

On another note, I seem to remember from applying to Universities that the cutoffs for getting into U of T weren't THAT high. . . some of the colleges had higher admissions standards, but on the whole U of T wasn't TOO hard to get into out of High School. Considering the shear volume of students they admit to undergrad, are there admissions standards any higher?

[Guest JSS02]

There's no Canadian school (U of T included) that's HARD to get into out of high school. It's nothing like getting into Harvard, MIT or whatever.

 

As with other Canadian schools, the difficulty in getting into U of T depends on what program (and what college) you're applying to. For life sciences the cutoff is probably upper 70's or so... but for engineering science you need at least a 90% OAC average. Similarly for Western, I'm sure the life science program is rather easy to get into. But if you're applying to the Richard Ivey HBA program, you'd need a 90+ average.

[Guest easy schools]

I have some doubt with regards to the A+/C+ theory too. In the end GPA is what matters, and not subjective comparisons by admissions committee. Some points:

 

1) a 79% is 3.3 and 80% is 3.7 ... If all my marks were raised one notch on the GPA scale I'd be sittin' pretty. So what if A+ at Guelph is like an A at U of T, it's the small differences that count.

 

2) small schools may have proportionally fewer "keeners" aspiring for professional school and thus it's easier to stand out.

 

3) with regards to the previously discussed point on high-school entrants, yes the minimum cutoffs are about the same for all schools. I think that while the distribution is even for the small school, maybe at a big school the brightest people all end up taking the same classes? For example, med-research courses taken by applicants who want research experience and a backdoor... a 4th year physiology at U of T may be packed with keeners who aced high school and now striving for meds, thus making the course difficult to get good marks. At the same time, a small school would have more mediocre folks just looking to do grad studies. (this point might sound weak but it's just my inability to put my thoughts into words )

[Guest me]

It isn't necessarily true that all schools maintain their averages at the same levels. For example, engineering science at u of t is a program with lots of good students - but they keep their averages VERY high to compensate (sometimes as high as B+) .. I know of courses at smaller schools with averages of D-, reflecting a class full of weak students.

 

(that said, i vote for choosing a smaller school still :-) )

[Guest Liana]

I think lumping Guelph in with the "small schools" is ridiculous. Sure, the population isn't huge, but we're about 2000 students shy of Queen's student population (and Queen's has much more prominent grad & professional programs that should probably make up most of the difference) so considering Guelph as a small place to stand out is an errant belief. For one thing, the largest major at the university is the Biomedical Sciences major. Couple the ~1000 students in this program with several hundred in Human Kinetics and a bunch in Biological Sciences, Biochem, Molecular Biology, and Biological Engineering, and you end up with perhaps the highest density of aspiring medical students of any Canadian university (as far as first year goes, anyway).

 

The comment that Guelph students (among those from other institutions) do not enter graduate school is completely ignorant. I have no stats for you, but I imagine any Ontario medical student will tell you that at least 5 students from every class went to Guelph. You can probably find at least one Guelph grad at most of the other Canadian medical schools, and these students are just as well represented in terms of high marks as grads from any other school. A huge number of Guelph graduates enter professional and grad programs, at any Canadian medical school or abroad. I worked at a major U of T teaching hospital, where most of the grad students had attended Guelph, Mac, or UWO/Queen's (the minority) for undergrad. No one went to U of T.

 

Similarly there ARE grad & med students who did their undergrads at smaller schools like Brock or Carleton. Obviously, there are fewer than from schools more geared toward medical programs, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Some people can't afford to live away from home, or are seeking out a specialized program. I considered Brock and Laurentian for a short time because they were the only schools to seriously offer a major program in neuroscience. U of T didn't offer one, unless you count the behavioural psych version offered by the Scarborough campus. Speaking of which, what do you name-brand elitists think of grads of U of T at Scarborough? They're the proud bearers of "esteemed" U of T degrees but are also subject to what you consider to be the downfalls of a small university.

[Guest Snoopy]

Hey Liana

 

Nobody is cutting up Guelph, but the point we are trying to determine is whether or not going to a lesser name school with easier standards is better than going for something like UofT. After all UofT prides itself on being a very academically challenging place that pushes students to their limits (I really wish they would stop that), its the nature of a doctoral research university that aims for noble prizes and groundbreaking research. Guelph is great too but its focus is different I gather with an emphisis to serve the agriculture and livestock industry of the area (even their MBA program is strictly offered as a Agri MBA) and the only proffesional program they offer is Vet, so that kind of sheds light on the school. Hey I'm sure the science programs are great there but I dont know how med schools look at schools. I know for the cutoffs they dont care, but in the interview if you were a star at UofT I think that would be more impressive than a star from Guelph simply due to perceptions of the level of difficulty and competition. I did some stat checking at the Medsci and UofT all of the current 4 years does not have a single Guelph or Brock or even Laurier undergrad, which is a really interesting stat and has me thinking....hmmmm

 

You see Liana, I often think to myself that it was a huge mistake to come to UofT where the workload and competition is insane but I wonder if its better to get in the water with the sharks rather than swim in safer waters....who knows all I know is if this pace keeps up I'm gonna loooose it arggghhh

 

Anyhow good luck to you!

[Guest JSS02]

I have the stats for the U of T meds OT5 class and where they went to school before. Out of the 198 students in the class:

 

55 went to U of T

25 Western

18 Queen's

18 Mac

13 York

12 United States

9 Waterloo

7 Guelph (so there are definitely people from there in U of T meds)

7 Windsor

6 Ottawa

5 UBC

4 Calgary

and a whole bunch of schools with 1 or 2 students

[Guest Tal]

(I just thought another guelph girl should get in here)

I agree with Liana. For my undergrad I did probably the most research of all the universities out of anyone I know! I applied all accross Canada (to about 8 different schools). However, I never applied to U of T. It would have been easier for me to get in there than Guelph (ever read Macleans, Guelph has the highest entering averages). But like most other Universities at the time, it had nothing unique to offer. The reason I choose Guelph, was the Bio-med program, no other school had one like it (at the time) and I still think no other program compares to it.

I've been doing an equal amount of research on med schools, and I could not be more prepared for med school than from being in this program. I have not gone to any other universities (so I can't say if they're hard or easy) but since the later years of the bio-med progrm is basically 1st year med school, let me tell you, it's not easy by any means.

Regardless of easy or hard, Guelph is an amazing learning community and I will be more prepared entering med school than if I were anywhere else. (Notice I say "I", everyone is different). And those are the things that should count when talking about undergrads, not whether your school is harder or easier. (In fact I really don't think Universities can be compared like that. In every school there are easy classes and there are hard ones; easy profs and hard ones. It all depends on how you lived your undergrad at the school you're at, not what school you went to.)

pp15, if you like u of t and your experience there, and you learned a lot then thats all that matters. Most likely the only way you would have gotten better marks anywhere else is if you would have enjoyed it more anywhere else. And Snoopy, do not regret going to U of T because you think somewhere else would have been easier, regret it if you did not enjoy yourself!

(Sorry this is so long, apparently I feel strongly about this topic!)

We'll never know each person's opinion on the addmission's commitees (maybe some of them prefer one school over another?) but as a collective I can't believe that they would form biases for certain schools, and if they do that's just crooked!

(and Snoopy, as for a C+ there equaling an A+ here, that's just plain silly, I'm sorry you fell for that)

[Guest uneasy schooling]

With a big vet program I guess Guelph doesn't fit the mould of a "2nd rate" university, like Lakehead or Laurentian. However it's listed under Maclean's in the "comprehensive" category so I am not sure if it has the highest entering grades of all schools.

 

For Tal's comment about different classes different profs, it's true to some extent but the "premed" student generally fits the profile of 3-4 yrs undergrad plus medical-related research which means courses in upper year pharm, biochem, etc. If these courses at an easy university lead to higher marks (on average) then it's enough to say that school is better for GPA.

 

The note about learning a lot and enjoyment being the criteria that really count, it's perhaps a bit sentimental. Life is long, I think I will learn and enjoy more in the 30 years working as a doctor than the 4 years of undergrad studies. In other words, I'd rather not learn a lot and but get good grades and extracurricular involvement as opposed to the other way around.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Looking "just" to do grad studies? What has this world come to. . . has meds become that competitive that med students (and meds applicants) feel they can look down on grad students? As a med student, I'm only covering a little bit of everything. . . I'm really not an expert in anything! If you want a detailed knowledge of renal physiology I'd probably be better off referring you to a PhD student in Physiology doing a thesis in renal phsyiology than any med student or clinician!!

 

A friend of mine is now down at Boston University doing her PhD in Clinical Psychology. She was one of 4 applicants chosen for the program, from a field of 600! Makes getting into an Ontario Med school (ratio of 30 applicants to 1 accepted at the worst school, Mac) seem easy in comparison. Yes, there unfortunately is a shortage of grad students at most Universities, leading to lower admissions standards (in terms of GPA) for some to many grad programs. . . but for some, it's much harder to get into the grad program of your choice than the med school of your choice! (Think - there's what, at least 50-100 seats at most medical schools. Most grad programs are much smaller, and if you want to work with a specific researcher, than the competition can get quite intense!)

 

On another note, I'd just like to point out that people's biases can vary tremendously. . . I did a research project a couple of years ago with a Researcher at the Ottawa Heart Institute. I was applying to Universities at the time, and she thought the best students (ie ones with the best lab/research skills) she'd seen were the ones from Guelph!

 

In another example, I know an Anaestheliogist in Ottawa (I think I've cited this previously) who feels the best med graduates are the ones from Memorial's (Newfoundland) med school.

 

So biases can be extremely personal and can vary from person to person, and from admissions committee to admissions committee. In fact, the only people I've met who have a significant towards U of T are U of T grads/faculty and people who don't know any better and only get their info from the Maclean's survey! (BTW - I'm not saying U of T isn't a great school, I'm just saying it's not always perceived as being much better than other schools!)

[Guest aneliz]

As a fourth year Guelph student I thought that I would add my 2 cents worth. I would have to agree that there are Guelph people in UofT meds. I personally know of one in the current first year class. She is not a Guelph grad though because she got in after her third year. I would not say that she was a 'Guelph superstar' but an average Guelph pre-med. She applied to one school last year (U of T) and got in. So you can interpret that as you like. I also know of Guelph grads that are at Mac, Ottawa and Western as well as current Guelph students with interviews at many schools including McGill (as an out of province student). Guelph grads also seem to be competitive in getting Rhodes scholarships, Commonwealth scholarships and NSERC. None of these people are 'superstars'. As for a C+ at Toronto = an A+ at Guelph, COME ON!!! Our first year averages hover between 55-65% in most courses and our admission averages are comparable to other schools. (This year = min 80% in six OAC's for science)

 

True Guelph does have a reputation for having an agriculture and vet focus but if you were to actually come here you would find it is a bit of a stereotype. (Just like I am sure that not all Western students have a BMW). If you have no interest in either of these areas, you can happily pursue a degree here (in history, philosophy, pharmaceutical chemistry, engineering or even hotel and food or landscape architecture (and many others)) without ever seeing a cow, tractor or anything else related to agriculture. That said, agriculture is kind of important to the province of Ontario and no other Ontario schools offer these programs. So I think that it is a good thing that Guelph is commited to educating people in these areas - because we need them. However, despite our perceived 'animal' focus, Guelph has a large amount of research money. (The most of any non-med school in Ontario) A lot of the biomedical science work is applicable to human medicine and some are even collaborative investigations involving researchers working in med schools. Just because it isn't a big school or doesn't have a ton of professional programs doesn't make it a less advantageous place to do your undergrad. Guelph's population (about 15 000) is smaller than UofT or Western and I'm glad. We are not comparable to Nipissing or Trent though. Unlike these schools, Guelph is a research intensive university offering a wide range of MSc, MA and PhD programs.

 

 

Liana- As a biomed student I thought that I would clear up the perception that Biomed is the largest major at Guelph. If you polled the entering Bio sci class most will say that their major of choice is biomed. However, it is a restricted entry major and they will not be formally admitted to the major until the end of their 2nd semester. Entry to biomed is competitive and is restricted to 100 a year. So, there are not 1000's of biomeds out there despite the fact that there are 1000's that would like to be biomeds. This year there are 76 of us graduating with a biomed degree.

 

I know that we all feel that our school is the best school but please, I don't think that there are any *bad* or *easy* universities in Ontario (or Canada for that matter). They are all different sizes and have their own unique strengths. If they were all UofT's or Guelph's there would be much less choice and diversity in Ontario! I appreciate the range of choice that we have. Pick a school that you like, that is a good fit for you and where you will be happy. Study something you like, get involved in your community and do your best and you should have a decent shot at getting into med school.

 

And that is all I have to say.

[Guest mying]

Adding another word from a "Guelph Girl."

 

I'm here at Western. I also got offered admissions at Queens. I'm one of two Guelph grads in UWO class of 2005. I also know of Guelph grads in upper years (but couldn't tell you exact numbers). This "low" number may have less to do with the Guelph's ability to turn out med students than it has to do with "passionate" premeds going to Guelph and the generally smaller size of the Guelph graduating class (rule of numbers, all the time.)

 

I loved Guelph. Guelph got me here in so many ways. The atmosphere, the class sizes, the lab work in my honours program, the chance to explore interests with a relatively flexible program. My academic counsellor was a *lot* of help. My pre-MCAT studies (bio, chem, physics, o.chem) must have prepared me well, as I got a wicked MCAT score. Vet Sci is a fab place to prepare for interviews. I didn't go the Biomed route and of course that was fine. I did get a scholarship in apiculture though (only at Guelph, *only* at Guelph).

 

I did one summer term at UofT (trying to cram in O. Chem -- that's the one big drawback of Guelph, the way O.Chem is spread out over 2nd and 3rd year, and the fact that it wasn't a part of my program (MBG)). I ended up dropping that class because I couldn't stand the class atmosphere at Toronto.

 

Sure everyone is different, and I'm very VERY glad I went to Guelph. No doubt in my mind at ALL on that one.

 

BTW, any premeds at Guelph that want to pick my brain, I'm easy to find: mying@uwo.ca

[Guest JSS02]

mying,

At my Queen's interview I met a few people who were offered admission to Western as well but ended up going to Queen's. I guess there's some overlap between the students the two schools accept because of somewhat similar admissions policies. After hearing from them I'd also like to see the persepectives of people who made the opposite choice (i.e. picked UWO over Queen's). What were the factors that influenced your decision?

[Guest notadoc]

London being a bigger city, there may be more opportunities to see better variety of cases at the hospital and maybe more research too. Not a first-hand account though.

[Guest mying]

I received my offer of admission to Queens the same day I was leaving for a week in Temagami. There was no way I could make the deadline to reply. I had already accepted the offer from UWO but checked the little box that said "still willing to consider offers from other schools". So I went canoeing and sent my refusal to Queen's late.

 

Actually, though, I had already decided, but with not much information to work with. I really, really liked the short block curriculum system with the cases-of-the-week and the way the exams are set up at Western. Queen's is very similar, but it's not exactly the same. Also, I had heard that Western students might have more exposure to things like transplants. And just as importantly to me:

1. I like southwestern Ontario. I have family within two hours drive in any direction from London. This is home.

2. I wanted to be as close as possible to my fiance in Guelph.

3. London has more of the restaurants I like than Kingston does.

 

I've now learned about things like the way Western's clerkship is set up and if I'd known about that before, that might have also been a deciding factor. But I wasn't that informed.

[Guest Tal]

Do you know some secret the rest of us don't "uneasy schooling"? I like to live life in the present, enjoy now, not wait for 4 years to have fun! Some advice: don't live life for the future, and especially not just to get into meds, you'll probably just end up regretting it. Frankly with your philosophy of "rather not learn a lot" I'm sad for you.

 

I think Guelph is rated in Maclean's as Highest percentage of people entering with 80 and over? (something like that, someone with a Macleans can correct me)