Caribben or Ireland--no pref. to come back to Can

[Quester]

I know Caribbean vs. Ireland topic has been discussed many times in this forum, and it seems like people seem to choose based on matching rate in Canada.

 

Personally, I don't have any reasons to come back to Canada and it doesn't matter whether or not I live in the US or back home. I just hope that I get matched in EM/surgery.

 

In this case, would it be more wise to go to the Caribbean than to Ireland?

GPA is a low 3 and I will be taking MCAT in a few months. I'll be applying to US DO as well.

[Mourning Cloak]

I know Caribbean vs. Ireland topic has been discussed many times in this forum, and it seems like people seem to choose based on matching rate in Canada.

 

Personally, I don't have any reasons to come back to Canada and it doesn't matter whether or not I live in the US or back home. I just hope that I get matched in EM/surgery.

 

In this case, would it be more wise to go to the Caribbean than to Ireland?

GPA is a low 3 and I will be taking MCAT in a few months. I'll be applying to US DO as well.

 

This is a tough one. EM and surgery are competitive specialties in the US.

 

If you can't get into a Canadian med school, then your next best bet is an American allopathic school. You will be considered a US grad and will have a better chance of matching in the US than an IMG. If you want to do a residency in Canada, you can also apply to match through CaRMS to all of the same spots as Canadian medical school grads (rather than to the IMG spots). This is a consideration since I understand that general surgery is less competitive in Canada than it is in the US. However, you will be competing directly against CMGs in the CaRMS match, and only a handful of US-trained MDs match through CaRMS each year.

 

If you don't care about coming back to Canada (as I understand from your post above) another option is going DO. The DO degree is doctor of osteopathic medicine. It is essentially like an MD, but is really only well-recognized in the US. There are about 70,000 DOs practicing in the US. This is NOT for for you if you want to come back to Canada, as this degree is virtually unheard of in Canada (according to a recent Globe and Mail article there are only 20 DOs licensed to practice medicine in all of Canada). Technically DOs can match through CaRMS to a limited number of spots (in direct competition with grads of Canadian medical schools, like the allopathic US grads), but to the best of my knowledge no one's ever done so.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/new-health/health-news/pilot-project-for-medical-students-could-herald-rebirth-of-osteopathy/article2156594/print/

 

The upside if you want to stay in the US is that DOs can match through the allopathic match, and they also have their own match. A lot of DOs will try to match through the allopathic match, and if they can't they will then use the osteopathic match as a backup. Only DOs can match to the DO match, so it really is a great safety net. Since DOs count as US grads (not as IMGs) they have an advantage for matching in the allopathic match over IMGs. DO schools generally have lower entrance requirements that allopathic schools, so if you can't get into an allopathic US school you still may able to get into a DO school.

 

The third option is the IMG option. Ireland and the UK have excellent, well-respected schools with good international reputations dating back decades if not centuries. Irish / UK and Australian grads do well in the CaRMS match. The downside is that if you can't match through CaRMS (which is extremely competitive) then you are an IMG in the US allopathic match, and it is not likely that you will have US clinical experience and US letters of reference to bolster your application. The Caribbean schools are a popular option for many Americans who can't get into US allopathic schools and don't want to go DO. While the Caribbean schools are generally new and really only exist as overflow parking for students who can't get into onshore schools, they have the advantage of offering US clinical experience, which in turn provides US letters of reference, and makes a stronger application in the US allopathic match.

 

Tough choice, eh?

 

Two more points:

 

1) The US allopathic match is getting tighter and tighter and tighter. The general impression is that with all of the new US allopathic and osteopathic schools opening, IMGs will start to get squeezed out (starting with FMGs as you would be, and then US-IMGs).

 

2) EM and gen surg are competitive in the US.

 

Assuming that you have ruled out Canadian medical schools and would be happy practicing in the US, your next best bet would be to go US allopathic. This would give you the absolute best chance of getting what you want. Failing that, DO would allow you to match as a US grad to allopathic spots (always assuming that the rules don't chance between now and then) as well as having the DO match to fall back on. After that, it's IMG - if you really want the US, Caribbean is probably better than western Europe, but you need to recognize that competitive specialties are out of the reach of most FMGs. Because you're (presumably) not an American citizen, you would need a visa, and this is a detractor in your residency application.

 

It would probably be helpful to read about some of the experiences of Canadians asking the same question as you, or now currently in the current US match. Try here:

http://www.valuemd.com/residency-match-forum/216332-match-2012-a-87.html

http://www.valuemd.com/canadian-img/179038-chances-help.html

 

Most important thing: Whatever school you choose, make sure you have reviewed and approved their match list. Past performance is the best indicator you can have of future performance. If you choose a school that only matches 20% of their students (the rest fail out or don't match), or a school that's never matched anyone to anything but family medicine, you're likely to be disappointed in four years' time. And if they won't show you their match list, run away!

[Quester]

Thanks Cloak! I PM'd you.

[leviathan]

It is extremely unlikely you will ever match to surgery or emergency medicine as an international graduate. If you are not happy with the possibility of matching into family medicine (or not matching at all), then you shouldn't do it.

[Quester]

It is extremely unlikely you will ever match to surgery or emergency medicine as an international graduate. If you are not happy with the possibility of matching into family medicine (or not matching at all), then you shouldn't do it.

 

leviathan, as a current medical student what do you think the outlook will be for class of 2017 IMGs in both Canada and the US? Do you foresee some policy changes that will open up more spots in 5 years?

[inspiring-curmudgeon]

leviathan, as a current medical student what do you think the outlook will be for class of 2017 IMGs in both Canada and the US? Do you foresee some policy changes that will open up more spots in 5 years?

 

If anything, spots will close down or be filled by increased domestic graduates. Going abroad while wanting something other than family is a dangerous game.

[Quester]

I hate being Canadian

[leviathan]

i guess you havnt seen the rcsi match list

There are 6 general surgery spots in the entire country for IMGs. It doesn't matter what school you're at.

[NLengr]

The US is expecting cuts to the number of post grad education (read residency spots) in the next few years. This is because of budget cuts in the country at the federal level, which will be widespread.

 

Expect it to get harder to match in the US, especially as an IMG in the coming years.

 

I also agree that if you aren't happy with family, then don't apply to international schools. The majority of IMGs will end up in family. I am sure many would not have made it their first choice if they were CMGs. I would also add that ANYONE, CMGS or IMG should be willing to accept family before starting medicine, because it is the natural fall back in the match process.

[leviathan]

The US is expecting cuts to the number of post grad education (read residency spots) in the next few years. This is because of budget cuts in the country at the federal level, which will be widespread.

 

Expect it to get harder to match in the US, especially as an IMG in the coming years.

 

I also agree that if you aren't happy with family, then don't apply to international schools. The majority of IMGs will end up in family. I am sure many would not have made it their first choice if they were CMGs. I would also add that ANYONE, CMGS or IMG should be willing to accept family before starting medicine, because it is the natural fall back in the match process.

The thing is, I think it's naturally difficult for anyone to know what they'd be 'happy' with before getting into medical school and knowing what each specialty is like. That's the unfortunate part about it.

[Slashsev01]

Id do the islands as they are american based

 

Great chance u wont get anything but FM

 

check out DO programs

[rankin]

There are 6 general surgery spots in the entire country for IMGs. It doesn't matter what school you're at.

 

Wtf are you even talking about? More than 40 students matched into surgery this year alone and thats JUST from SGU.

 

To the original thread writer please do yourself a favor and do not listen to anything 'leviathan' says. He has absolutely no clue wtf hes talking about.

 

I also want to add that besides FM, IM is a definite viable option for an IMG. In fact SGU has more IM matches this year then FM. Beyond IM and FM, yes matching in something else is tough but its not impossible. It just means you need to do very good on steps, get great LORs and make contacts. But I agree that you should go into it knowing that you may end up in FM or IM and be happy with that.

[Mashmetoo]

Wtf are you even talking about? More than 40 students matched into surgery this year alone and thats JUST from SGU.

 

To the original thread writer please do yourself a favor and do not listen to anything 'leviathan' says. He has absolutely no clue wtf hes talking about.

 

Do you have any written/online documentation that "40" SGU students matched in surgery (in Canada)? That sounds too good to be true.

[rankin]

Do you have any written/online documentation that "40" SGU students matched in surgery (in Canada)? That sounds too good to be true.

 

I was talking about USA as I understand the OP didn't care about matching in Canada.

 

I apologize if you are talking about Canada but why would you if the OP doesn't care about Canada? Seems like he doesn't even like Canada which is very sad given how great of a country this is. I hope all people in his shoes leave quickly to wherever they want to go.

[leviathan]

Wtf are you even talking about? More than 40 students matched into surgery this year alone and thats JUST from SGU.

 

To the original thread writer please do yourself a favor and do not listen to anything 'leviathan' says. He has absolutely no clue wtf hes talking about.

 

I also want to add that besides FM, IM is a definite viable option for an IMG. In fact SGU has more IM matches this year then FM. Beyond IM and FM, yes matching in something else is tough but its not impossible. It just means you need to do very good on steps, get great LORs and make contacts. But I agree that you should go into it knowing that you may end up in FM or IM and be happy with that.

As a medical student I think you need to learn how to read / comprehend things. We were talking about IMG positions in Canada, there's no such thing as an IMG residency position in the US. You really should not attend an international school if you haven't even done your homework to realize this.

 

As for US surgery matches, look at the NRMP statistics on those matches and you'll see they almost exclusively go to American citizens who don't have a J1 visa requirement and whose board scores are far higher than the average Caribbean student. If you think you're going to attend St. Georges or some other school and get surgery, you're delusional. Sure it happens but only for a small minority of excellent students. A minority that is becoming even smaller as the number of US grads increases year after year.

[leviathan]

Did some research. My god SGU is one overbloated school.

 

793 (!!) PGY1 matches this year. 71 (9%) of them in Surgery (unknown how many are even categorical).

 

721 IMGs applied for surgery last year in the US, and 192 (26%) matched. For applicants who had 250 or greater on Step 1, 100% of US grads matched but only 42% of IMGs with the same stellar scores were able to match.

 

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

I don't know what I'm talking about? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

[rankin]

As a medical student I think you need to learn how to read / comprehend things. We were talking about IMG positions in Canada, there's no such thing as an IMG residency position in the US. You really should not attend an international school if you haven't even done your homework to realize this.

 

As for US surgery matches, look at the NRMP statistics on those matches and you'll see they almost exclusively go to American citizens who don't have a J1 visa requirement and whose board scores are far higher than the average Caribbean student. If you think you're going to attend St. Georges or some other school and get surgery, you're delusional. Sure it happens but only for a small minority of excellent students. A minority that is becoming even smaller as the number of US grads increases year after year.

 

First of all, as I said before, Canadian IMG residency positions in surgery are irrelevant to this thread because the thread poster does not care about coming back to Canada. If you want to discuss that make a new thread so we can have some level of organization.

 

Secondly, IMG residency position in the US? If you are implying that I think there are are dedicated seats in the US for IMG's then you have grossly misread and/or misunderstood what I said. I implied no such thing.

 

Did some research. My god SGU is one overbloated school.

 

793 (!!) PGY1 matches this year. 71 (9%) of them in Surgery (unknown how many are even categorical).

 

721 IMGs applied for surgery last year in the US, and 192 (26%) matched. For applicants who had 250 or greater on Step 1, 100% of US grads matched but only 42% of IMGs with the same stellar scores were able to match.

 

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

I don't know what I'm talking about? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

 

Nobody cares how 'over bloated' it is. Its the best Caribbean med school out there period (and I'm not even from there).

 

Yes obviously the match rate to surgery for IMG's will be far lower than US grads and even lower still for those seeking J1. What I was ultimately getting at is that harder specialties are viable out of Caribbean but you have to work extremely hard and/or be smart and you should also be willing to accept IM or FM (especially FM). If you are happy with that scenario and cannot get into North American schools then go for Caribbean.

[leviathan]

Nobody cares how 'over bloated' it is. Its the best Caribbean med school out there period (and I'm not even from there).

I didn't say anything about the quality of the school, I was just making an observation at how ridiculous the number of students they have is. SGU is probably the best school, but I'm basing that on nothing more than that that's what everyone else says, and that they've been around the longest of most Carib schools. What really makes them the best from an education standpoint? If you asked what school in the Carib gives the best chances to get a residency, then there's no question, BECAUSE of their reputation. But what is that reputation from?

 

What I was ultimately getting at is that harder specialties are viable out of Caribbean but you have to work extremely hard and/or be smart and you should also be willing to accept IM or FM (especially FM). If you are happy with that scenario and cannot get into North American schools then go for Caribbean.

What's your definition of 'viable'. I would not tell people thinking of the Caribbean that surgery is going to be viable for them. The chances are so low it is misleading people to tell them it's a viable option. I usually tell people to plan on matching into FM/IM/Psych but be pleasantly surprised if you're able to get something better. I would say surgery is viable for those with high board scores and good LORs and good clinical evals, but when you're a premed there's really no good way of knowing what kind of med student you will become or how competitive you'll be.