peanutbuttercup Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hi guys, I've been a longtime lurker on the international forum, and I must say, I'm glad there are some honest opinions and experiences to give us some insight. Maybe you guys can help me out with this one. I was recently accepted to an Irish medical school (4-year Graduate Entry Program) having been rejected from Canadian schools in the past three years. I've done a lot of research on the process of coming back to both Canada and the U.S., and I don't think anyone would disagree that it will be a long, difficult, and complicated process. With that said, I know it's really up to the individual to make the most of their program, study for the MCCEE or USMLE, do their electives over breaks, get strong references to back up their application, etc. etc...yet, I can't overlook the statistics of IMGs successfully matching back (particularly in competitive specialties) and the increasing number of students going abroad--just more competition for IMGs competing for residency positions in years to come. The last three years of applying in Canada were incredibly frustrating and disheartening...I really don't want to deal with essentially the same process (building your application, applying, waiting for interviews) only to be turned down again. It's just so hard, though, to turn down something I've worked for over the last few years. On the upside, I've heard that Irish grads match well (some schools claim ~100%), but given the lumped statistics of all IMGs returning (~30-40%), the high match rate seems unlikely, if I am to assume that IMGs are IMGs, regardless of the country one graduates from. Anyone know what the current situation is? I know your own work ethic and effort plays into your chances of matching back, but if I've learned anything from my unsuccessful attempts at med school back home, I don't know if hard work and determination will be enough...not to mention upwards of $200,000 in debt. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 It sounds like you've done your research, but like I've said before, the outlook isn't very pretty. I would say that many of the Irish schools do have high match rates. I don't know if that is still the case in 2012 or beyond because of the massive increase in applicants, so I'd love to see what the outcome was this year. As you said if you work hard, score well on the exams, do some clinical training in Canada and perform well (and impress the staff who write your letters), you will have an excellent chance at matching. I know students like that from my school and they all matched in Canada this year, which was little surprise to me. Unfortunately it's hard to know if you will be any better than the average med student, and you could possibly be worse. There ARE actually 'mini med schools' in the US that you attend for one year to demonstrate how well you can handle medical school, but those are costly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhope99 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 hey can you explain wat this mini med school is because it s completely new topic for me and I have never heard of it...can it potentially increase your chances of getting into medical school if you attend this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatMatt Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 hey can you explain wat this mini med school is because it s completely new topic for me and I have never heard of it...can it potentially increase your chances of getting into medical school if you attend this... I think the 'mini med school' the poster is referring to is what's called a Special Masters Program in the US. Basically, you take some classes with the med students and some research/other classes. They are designed to boost your application, and many give you counseling on how to get into school. Some even give you a guaranteed interview at that school. Go on to the US forum and you should find more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mm88 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I've also heard that there are special high schools for kids with interests in medicine where they study anatomy and practice surgical skills. http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2012/02/young-black-doogie-howser-invents.html ^Like this guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxdude Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Your education will be first class and just as good as any Canadian school. However, you will probably have to take whatever residency you can get, and this might mean living somewhere remote or working within the US healthcare system. It also means that residencies aside from family medicine, though not unattainable, would be a long shot. You would end up on the low end of the pay scale, most likely with a large debt load. If you want to be a doctor that works in family practice, doesn't make much, and works in either a rural/underserviced area or the US, I think Ireland is for you. If you're in this because you want to help people and have a passion for medicine, particularly family medicine, and you're okay making compromises to reach your goal, Ireland is for you. If you want to be a doctor that works in a specialty, makes a great salary, works in his/her location of choice, I don't think Ireland is for you. If you're in this because you want an intellectual challenge and although you don't know what area of medicine you like best you'll figure it out in med school, Ireland might not be for you. Of course, you probably lie somewhere in between so you'll have to figure out where exactly you fit into all this. =) Good luck! PS: I realized that your post is about 10 days old so maybe you've already decided. Let us know what you ended up doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Your education will be first class and just as good as any Canadian school. However, you will probably have to take whatever residency you can get, and this might mean living somewhere remote or working within the US healthcare system. It also means that residencies aside from family medicine, though not unattainable, would be a long shot. You would end up on the low end of the pay scale, most likely with a large debt load. If you want to be a doctor that works in family practice, doesn't make much, and works in either a rural/underserviced area or the US, I think Ireland is for you. If you're in this because you want to help people and have a passion for medicine, particularly family medicine, and you're okay making compromises to reach your goal, Ireland is for you. If you want to be a doctor that works in a specialty, makes a great salary, works in his/her location of choice, I don't think Ireland is for you. If you're in this because you want an intellectual challenge and although you don't know what area of medicine you like best you'll figure it out in med school, Ireland might not be for you. Of course, you probably lie somewhere in between so you'll have to figure out where exactly you fit into all this. =) Good luck! PS: I realized that your post is about 10 days old so maybe you've already decided. Let us know what you ended up doing! How do you figure that Family docs don't make much? Making 200K+ is the norm for any GP. Heck my family doctor made $650k last year....Thats pretty damn good if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxdude Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Just came by to see if you had replied peanut and add that studying medicine in Ireland is an amazing opportunity for travel, but we all know that of course. =) How do you figure that Family docs don't make much? Making 200K+ is the norm for any GP. Heck my family doctor made $650k last year....Thats pretty damn good if you ask me. I think those are liberal estimates but you are definitely right that doctors are well compensated (perhaps overcompensated and perhaps compensated with perverse incentives.) I just meant that a family doctor would be on the low end of the spectrum and with the international school debt and probable return of service contract limiting his or her options an IMG will be putting less money in the bank. At least for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazyboy Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 One has to realize the situation in USA, there are more and more medical schools open up in USA; and the D.O. school etc. There will be a shortage of residences even for local medical students in USA, it is even worse if you are alien; what will that do to IMG? you get the picture! No trying to discouraging anyone; it is not an easy decision, at the end of the day, you have to make a choice. If you go IMG route, you know it is going to be tough, and you may not see a good ROI both in your effort and your finance. General rule of thumb is: Canada, USA M.D., USA D.O., caribbean, then IMG outside caribbean. just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 One has to realize the situation in USA, there are more and more medical schools open up in USA; and the D.O. school etc. There will be a shortage of residences even for local medical students in USA, it is even worse if you are alien; what will that do to IMG? you get the picture! No trying to discouraging anyone; it is not an easy decision, at the end of the day, you have to make a choice. If you go IMG route, you know it is going to be tough, and you may not see a good ROI both in your effort and your finance. General rule of thumb is: Canada, USA M.D., USA D.O., caribbean, then IMG outside caribbean. just my 2 cents Medicine is not the only career in the world, and it's not worth ruining yourself for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanutbuttercup Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Just came by to see if you had replied peanut and add that studying medicine in Ireland is an amazing opportunity for travel, but we all know that of course. =) I think those are liberal estimates but you are definitely right that doctors are well compensated (perhaps overcompensated and perhaps compensated with perverse incentives.) I just meant that a family doctor would be on the low end of the spectrum and with the international school debt and probable return of service contract limiting his or her options an IMG will be putting less money in the bank. At least for a while. Thanks for the concern, alxdude. I most certainly do not question the quality of education provided by Irish medical schools, and I have no doubt that it'll be an amazing opportunity to travel (which I openly embrace, because I did not have many chances to get outside of North America growing up, haha). Yet thinking ahead - 4 years or so - I'm not sure what the residency situation will be like for IMGs. It's pretty difficult as is, but with more IMGs applying each year, there may be a lot of students who put so much time, effort, and money towards getting through medical school, studying for/writing qualifying exams, doing electives, building your C.V., getting LoRs, etc. only to be disappointed. So unfortunately, I have still yet to make a decision. Are you a current student in Ireland alxdude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red1990 Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 If you go DO you would have virtually guaranteed your prospects of returning to Canada through FM at least. If you go Ireland you will graduate with an MBBS (or equiv), have a tougher time matching to Canada (IMG vs CMG in Ontario) and will sacrifice the safety net of residency if you don't match to the US or Canada. * You could make the case here that you'd rather be the top of IMGs than the bottom of CMGs. Depends on what view you subscribe to (I personally don't). This says nothing about the quality of the Irish schools themselves, I am sure they are excellent, but if you're asking about logistics of returning then there's no debate. Edit: in addition, Irish schools can be 4-6 years. Make sure you keep that in mind when choosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 If you go DO you would have virtually guaranteed your prospects of returning to Canada through FM at least. If you go Ireland you will graduate with an MBBS (or equiv), have a tougher time matching to Canada (IMG vs CMG in Ontario) and will sacrifice the safety net of residency if you don't match to the US or Canada. * You could make the case here that you'd rather be the top of IMGs than the bottom of CMGs. Depends on what view you subscribe to (I personally don't). This says nothing about the quality of the Irish schools themselves, I am sure they are excellent, but if you're asking about logistics of returning then there's no debate. Edit: in addition, Irish schools can be 4-6 years. Make sure you keep that in mind when choosing. MBBS = MD It wont make a difference at all what you have behind your name when you graduate, as long as its equivalent to the North American MD. What will matter are your exam scores, grades, LORs, clinical experiences, interview and luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxdude Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Are you a current student in Ireland alxdude? I'm actually applying to medical school this year. I got accepted to University College Cork and I paid the deposit for fall! I actually still could get into medical school in Ontario though, so I'm not really sure what the future holds. My own situation is a little different since I'm older than a lot of people that apply to medical school but do not have a postgraduate degree, and also the money is not quite such a hurdle to me. It was definitely not an easy choice though because of what this will mean for my freedom of mobility and uncertainty about what could change in the future. To me this chance to go to med school is just an amazing opportunity that I really want so I decided it's worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red1990 Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 MBBS = MD It wont make a difference at all what you have behind your name when you graduate, as long as its equivalent to the North American MD. What will matter are your exam scores, grades, LORs, clinical experiences, interview and luck. The comma is separating two separate points. Wasn't downplaying the MBBS (or the DO). Sorry about my grammar lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf1987 Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm actually applying to medical school this year. I got accepted to University College Cork and I paid the deposit for fall! I actually still could get into medical school in Ontario though, so I'm not really sure what the future holds. I'm going to UCC too unless I get off the waitlist at a U.S. school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 The comma is separating two separate points. Wasn't downplaying the MBBS (or the DO). Sorry about my grammar lol MBBS=MD but DO doesn't exactly equal MD (but it's similar enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanutbuttercup Posted March 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I'm actually applying to medical school this year. I got accepted to University College Cork and I paid the deposit for fall! I actually still could get into medical school in Ontario though, so I'm not really sure what the future holds. My own situation is a little different since I'm older than a lot of people that apply to medical school but do not have a postgraduate degree, and also the money is not quite such a hurdle to me. It was definitely not an easy choice though because of what this will mean for my freedom of mobility and uncertainty about what could change in the future. To me this chance to go to med school is just an amazing opportunity that I really want so I decided it's worth it. Congrats on getting accepted to UCC and good luck with the Ontario school! Going overseas (and medical school in general) will bring about a lot of changes, but if you have enough passion for the profession, I think it'll be good changes for the most part...further, I think you'll certainly learn a lot about life in general by living in another country. As for me, I don't think I have the flexibility to pay the deposit and to go back on my decision...nor do I have a North American school to fall back on ...this would be so much easier if electives and residencies were guaranteed for international grads...ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frystorm Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 If you go DO you would have virtually guaranteed your prospects of returning to Canada through FM at least. Could you explain this in more detail? What is the process, and presumably this is after doing a residency program abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Henderson Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Could you explain this in more detail? What is the process, and presumably this is after doing a residency program abroad. No, you can do residency in Canada. Read Mashmetoo's sticky on D.O. in the American forum- it should answer all of your questions. If you can't do M.D. in Canada or the U.S. and you want to practice in Canada again, D.O. is probably your safest bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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