U of T MPH or Second Undergrad?

[paloma22]

So I am shocked to hear I was accepted to U of T's MPH Epidemiology program today. I still cannot believe it, thought I had no chance.

 

With this, my well mapped 'plan' has somewhat been uprooted. I am currently completing a 1 yr MA (3.8 GPA), and have a BScH. (3.0 GPA), and had applied to the undergrad Health Sciences program at Ottawa U. I was carefully planning out my second undergrad, to spend the next 2ish years working my butt off to get a 3.85+ and then reapply to Epi programs (I was not accepted to both Ottawa U Epi and Queens).

 

My long term goal is Medicine, and I hope to be a clinician scientist, with Epi and public health as my backup, once I've had a few more years research and work under my belt. I wanted to boost my undergrad grades, do the MPH, then eventually apply to MD programs later on.

 

Now, I could be entering the MPH without having raised my undergrad grades.

 

Thus, AFTER my MPH if I still want medicine, I will have to go back to undergrad to do the 2 years ( I will likely be 27 by then), and who knows if that will even happen.

 

There are no deferrals for the MPH program, so I'm in a real predicament. I want MD ultimately, but Epi/ public health is also my passion and something I want to build into my career as a physician (community medicine).

 

I don't know what to do. Any and all advice would be deeply appreciated.

[Legion]

What is your GPA breakdown for your undergrad? (GPA for each year).

[paloma22]

Legion:

1: 2.47

2: 3.04

3: 3.47

4: 3.62

 

I made the typical mistake of partying a lot in my first two years and was SUPER involved in my school. I did a million activities including sports, volunteering and working (lifeguarding/ swim instructing, teams, work at campus bar for 3+ years, etc).

 

Also: these are not all full time semesters. My last year was not full-time because I did a full year thesis, and I had several summer courses between some years. I can provide that breakdown too.

[Legion]

Ok, so at least you got strong ECs out of that undergrad which is a good thing. But GPA wise your last 2 year GPA isn't high enough. If you are really passionate about medicine, I recommend you do a second undergrad. A masters degree will only help if you have a decent undergrad GPA (in the 3.7+ range at minimum). I've heard there are pretty good jobs out there for public health with decent incomes. And you seem to enjoy it as well so that's a great option as well. Doing a second undergrad, however will open up more doors for you (even if you don't get into med school, you can still get into MPH again, finish it and try for med school again, but this time with your high second undergrad GPA and MPH). There are a lot of people here with stories that show amazing persistence when it comes to getting into med school in Canada. So again, if medical school is your dream, do the second undergrad IMO. Maybe others can shed some light into your situation as well.

[FuturePT216]

May I ask what you did your MA in? I agree with Legion. Go for the 2nd undergrad first, and then after completing it, apply to the MPH and Medicine again, and continue to apply for Med while in your MPH!

[future_doc]

My long term goal is Medicine, and I hope to be a clinician scientist, with Epi and public health as my backup, once I've had a few more years research and work under my belt. I wanted to boost my undergrad grades, do the MPH, then eventually apply to MD programs later on.

 

Now, I could be entering the MPH without having raised my undergrad grades.

 

Thus, AFTER my MPH if I still want medicine, I will have to go back to undergrad to do the 2 years ( I will likely be 27 by then), and who knows if that will even happen.

 

There are no deferrals for the MPH program, so I'm in a real predicament. I want MD ultimately, but Epi/ public health is also my passion and something I want to build into my career as a physician (community medicine).

 

I don't know what to do. Any and all advice would be deeply appreciated.

 

I verily believe you answered your own question. You do want the MPH regardless of timing. So, do the MPH! Do not relinguish this wonderful opportunity. Then, if necessary as is likely, do the 2years undergrad for med.

[paloma22]

I verily believe you answered your own question. You do want the MPH regardless of timing. So, do the MPH! Do not relinguish this wonderful opportunity. Then, if necessary as is likely, do the 2years undergrad for med.

 

I certainly do not want to relinquish the opportunity, however I can't help in thinking that doing the MPH once I have raised my undergrad GPA will (as Legion said) opens up way more doors for me. Not only will I be able to apply to Med right after, but I can start a job in public health and keep applying, rather then essentially putting everything back on hold to go and do the 2 yr undergrad. This is a terribly difficult decision for me.

 

Also financially, I don't know what situation i will be in to return for a second undergrad when I'm 27, whereas right now, I can. If I can get a 3.9 GPA on my new undergrad (I believe I can) then I could also be funded for the MPH.

 

My current MA is fully funded, but the MPH I will have zero funding. Another consideration.

[paloma22]

May I ask what you did your MA in? I agree with Legion. Go for the 2nd undergrad first, and then after completing it, apply to the MPH and Medicine again, and continue to apply for Med while in your MPH!

 

It was in a public policy discipline, with an emphasis on health policy and population health. I honestly just did the MA cause I was in denial of what I really wanted, but after getting a lot of exposure to this stuff now (getting solid research, etc), its more clear. Really I kept telling myself initially that the road is too long, and my family/friends have seen constant failure for admittance to Canadian schools (some have gone abroad), so the negativity has made me resist the idea. But its secretly all Ive thought about for the last 1-2 years, and now I'm determined.

[future_doc]

I certainly do not want to relinquish the opportunity, however I can't help in thinking that doing the MPH once I have raised my undergrad GPA will (as Legion said) opens up way more doors for me. Not only will I be able to apply to Med right after, but I can start a job in public health and keep applying, rather then essentially putting everything back on hold to go and do the 2 yr undergrad. This is a terribly difficult decision for me.

 

Also financially, I don't know what situation i will be in to return for a second undergrad when I'm 27, whereas right now, I can. If I can get a 3.9 GPA on my new undergrad (I believe I can) then I could also be funded for the MPH.

 

My current MA is fully funded, but the MPH I will have zero funding. Another consideration.

 

I do not know how competitive the program that accepted you is. Financially, you can do the MPH, then work for a year or do and save money for the 2nd undergrad. This will make you a more competitive candidate. 27 is young, so is 32.

[Diceroll2011]

UofT's MPH program is competitive. I'd say you do it now, and use your public health background to work/do good ec's while you complete your 2nd undergrad.

 

I'd say play the long game.

[Kasiunut]

UofT's MPH program is competitive. I'd say you do it now, and use your public health background to work/do good ec's while you complete your 2nd undergrad.

 

I'd say play the long game.

 

I agree! I'm 27 now and still feel like I could have a great career in medicine, even if I don't get in this year. You are YOUNG! You can always keep trying by applying for Mac every year to see if you get in too.

 

Given that you are really passionate about this I'd definitely do an MPH over the undergrad first.

[paloma22]

I agree! I'm 27 now and still feel like I could have a great career in medicine, even if I don't get in this year. You are YOUNG! You can always keep trying by applying for Mac every year to see if you get in too.

 

Given that you are really passionate about this I'd definitely do an MPH over the undergrad first.

 

Thats true Kasiunut, but in your case, you definitely have better UG grades than I do, and the second undergrad probably isn't necessary for you to matriculate in medicine. However it is for me. Going back to do 2 years of undergrad (the inevitable) at 27, after gaining some great contacts in an MPH and possibly even a job, would be very difficult compared to right now.

 

Also, I would be essentially uprooting my life, leaving everything behind when I could do the 2 yr UG in a great program (health sciences) at Ottawa U and not make those sacrifices (my life would remain status quo, still be involved in my current ECs and research, etc).

 

Obviously i realize its little sacrifice for a great program, its just the ORDER of my MPH and my two yr undergrad, that concern me in best setting me up for med applications.

[Legion]

Doing the second undergrad before MPH is better IMO. If you manage to get at least 3.9 in your new undergrad (which you should considering you'll be wasting money and time if you don't work hard), you have a great chance of getting interviews and accepted right away without needing to do the MPH. Take full course-load for 2 years and with a 3.9+ and a nice MCAT you'll be in good hands (considering you already have a good amount of ECs)

Unless you really really really love to do the MPH, it's definitely a better idea to do the second undergrad first. just my 2 cents.

[Satsuma]

If you want to do community medicine, you essentially have to do a master's in epi/public health anyway. So if you do get your MPH before med school, you will save time in your residency.

 

You may do your MPH and decide you don't even want to pursue medicine anymore.

 

I really think that if when presented with choices, you always pick what you like (and you seem to like public health), then you will find your place.

 

People can conceptualize what it is like to be a doctor because they interact with docs and see what they do. There are so many other fulfilling jobs out there that don't involve medicine, that we don't even ever really hear about. You may find one of them by following a path in public health.

[kpm]

I would vote for the MPH. You seem very passionate/interested in it and it is a step forward, whereas I view the 2nd undergrad as a step backward (for myself as well, so I am biased). It opens many doors to careers you may not even know about. I think it will make you more unique/competitive for med school after if you so choose. And if not, and you really want to do the 2nd undergrad, you can do it at that time.

 

Also... I've been thinking about the age thing a lot... I know that 27 or 32 is young for males or females who do not want to have a family. But, for females who want to have a family at some point, something's got to give. I would image that it would be very difficult to go through a pregnancy and have a newborn during med school (not sure about residency), and having children after 35/40 increases risk. Any thoughts on this side topic?

[Real Beef]

UofT's MPH program is competitive. I'd say you do it now, and use your public health background to work/do good ec's while you complete your 2nd undergrad.

 

I'd say play the long game.

 

+1

 

I have known of people who got an admission acceptance at Dentistry school and wanted to defer, they were not allowed to defer, so they declined it. They went and did there thing that they wanted to do for that year and reapplied the following year thinking they were a shoe in ... guess what? they were rejected ... they reapplied again .... rejected ....

 

Do the MPH because you may not get in again .... you can do undergrad anytime!! ... you will have you back up plan (Epidemiologist) all lined up if med school doesnt pan out right away after your two year undergrad is done ...... so you can work as an Epi, make 80k/yr while you keep applying to med school. In that case as a non-trad you would have work experience building up. Thats how I would do it if I were you .... I am not you and you are not me so ultimately you will need to take all of our opinions, your own and your gut feeling and do what makes the most sense.

 

If you are passionate about medicine you WILL go back to undergrad after the MPH but it is important to get a back up plan set.

 

As a non-trad you indeed need to think of the long game ... we are not snotty nosed 1st degree 'kids', we are older, more mature and need to think realistically about our prospects of med and have that back up plan (or two) lined up in case that whole "med or bust" slogan goes bust.

[Real Beef]

I would image that it would be very difficult to go through a pregnancy and have a newborn during med school (not sure about residency), and having children after 35/40 increases risk. Any thoughts on this side topic?

 

It can be done ...

 

http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=3257302

 

You can go on paid mat leave during residency, it is in the contracts that PAIRO has negotiated.

 

http://www.pairo.org/Content/Files/PregnancyParentalBenefits.pdf

[future_doc]

I have known of people who got an admission acceptance at Dentistry school and wanted to defer, they were not allowed to defer, so they declined it. They went and did there thing that they wanted to do for that year and reapplied the following year thinking they were a shoe in ... guess what? they were rejected ... they reapplied again .... rejected ....

 

Do the MPH because you may not get in again .... you can do undergrad anytime!! ... you will have you back up plan (Epidemiologist) all lined up if med school doesnt pan out right away after your two year undergrad is done ...... so you can work as an Epi, make 80k/yr while you keep applying to med school. In that case as a non-trad you would have work experience building up. Thats how I would do it if I were you .... I am not you and you are not me so ultimately you will need to take all of our opinions, your own and your gut feeling and do what makes the most sense.

 

If you are passionate about medicine you WILL go back to undergrad after the MPH but it is important to get a back up plan set.

 

As a non-trad you indeed need to think of the long game ... we are not snotty nosed 1st degree 'kids', we are older, more mature and need to think realistically about our prospects of med and have that back up plan (or two) lined up in case that whole "med or bust" slogan goes bust.

 

My thoughts exactly. To me, this route is a no brainer n/w/s the apparent obstacles.

[paloma22]

I would vote for the MPH. You seem very passionate/interested in it and it is a step forward, whereas I view the 2nd undergrad as a step backward (for myself as well, so I am biased). It opens many doors to careers you may not even know about. I think it will make you more unique/competitive for med school after if you so choose. And if not, and you really want to do the 2nd undergrad, you can do it at that time.

 

Also... I've been thinking about the age thing a lot... I know that 27 or 32 is young for males or females who do not want to have a family. But, for females who want to have a family at some point, something's got to give. I would image that it would be very difficult to go through a pregnancy and have a newborn during med school (not sure about residency), and having children after 35/40 increases risk. Any thoughts on this side topic?

 

kpm its funny you say that the undergrad is a step backwards. Those were the exact words of a family member close to me. I agree that the MPH is a step forwards, but I also believe that in order to take a step forward (medicine) you need to take a step backwards (2 yr undergrad). Its little sacrifice for a long career. The question is, do it at 25 (Im 24 for another month), or 27 after busting my butt for 2 years in the MPH (its a hard degree).

 

I feel like if I do it after the MPH, THAT will be a major step backwards, and be very difficult to do. I just think if I don't redo the 2 years now, I maybe never will. I am a very determined person and also believe that if medicine is your passion, you do whatever it takes. But Im also trying to be realistic given I HAD planned to do the 2 year undergrad now.

 

Obviously I could reapply to the MPH and not get in, but at least I could keep applying to medicine.

 

Medicine keeps getting more competitive, the sooner I am competitive enough to apply the better IMO.

 

At this point, my biggest concern is not accepting the offer and getting backlash from family and references. But I have often found myself in the past making decisions just to appease others (not the right ones).

 

As for age and kids, I realize having kids after 35 increases risk but that is so far from my mind at this point its irrelevant. My career decisions won't be dictated by my biological clock and this is a priority for me.

[paloma22]

+1

 

I have known of people who got an admission acceptance at Dentistry school and wanted to defer, they were not allowed to defer, so they declined it. They went and did there thing that they wanted to do for that year and reapplied the following year thinking they were a shoe in ... guess what? they were rejected ... they reapplied again .... rejected ....

 

Do the MPH because you may not get in again .... you can do undergrad anytime!! ... you will have you back up plan (Epidemiologist) all lined up if med school doesnt pan out right away after your two year undergrad is done ...... so you can work as an Epi, make 80k/yr while you keep applying to med school. In that case as a non-trad you would have work experience building up. Thats how I would do it if I were you .... I am not you and you are not me so ultimately you will need to take all of our opinions, your own and your gut feeling and do what makes the most sense.

 

If you are passionate about medicine you WILL go back to undergrad after the MPH but it is important to get a back up plan set.

 

As a non-trad you indeed need to think of the long game ... we are not snotty nosed 1st degree 'kids', we are older, more mature and need to think realistically about our prospects of med and have that back up plan (or two) lined up in case that whole "med or bust" slogan goes bust.

 

Beef- I think salary expectations for epi's without a PhD is more in around 40-50K, not 80.

 

And ya, as a non trad, these decisions definitely carry a lot more weight. Medicine is not getting any less competitive.

 

Still perplexed. Wishing I had a crystal ball.

[future_doc]

Medicine keeps getting more competitive, the sooner I am competitive enough to apply the better IMO.

 

At this point, my biggest concern is not accepting the offer and getting backlash from family and references. But I have often found myself in the past making decisions just to appease others (not the right ones).

 

What you say about med is so true. Backlash from anybody is not relevant. You understand all the issues clearly. You must follow your gut regardless of what others advise. Once you take your decision, don't look backwards. Good luck!

[Real Beef]

Beef- I think salary expectations for epi's without a PhD is more in around 40-50K, not 80.

 

And ya, as a non trad, these decisions definitely carry a lot more weight. Medicine is not getting any less competitive.

 

Still perplexed. Wishing I had a crystal ball.

 

You must be thinking of health promoters NOT epis .... see expired job postings below:

 

1) Infectious Disease Epidemiologist, Health Protection Division, Infectious Disease Prevention Department, Windsor-Essex County Health Unit

 

Ontario Health Promotion E-Bulletin, 30 March 2012 - OHPE Bulletin 748, Volume 2012, No. 748

 

Windsor, Ontario

Deadline April 3, 2012

 

1 Infectious Disease Epidemiologist

Permanent (CUPE 543.3) (Salary $68,000-$78,000)

 

 

Qualifications

 

Your application must describe your qualifications as they relate to:

• Master’s Degree in Epidemiology (Beef: No PhD here)

• Extensive experience in a public health or related agency

• Several years experience using statistical software such as Stata, SAS, SPSS, EpiData, ArcGIS, and familiarity of using Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, and other packages and programming languages currently used to collect, analyze, and report epidemiological data in Ontario

 

http://www.ohpe.ca/node/13135

 

2) Epidemiologist, Public Health and Emergency Services Department, Oxford County Board of Health

 

Ontario Health Promotion E-Bulletin, 16 December 2011 - OHPE Bulletin 735, Volume 2011, No. 735

 

 

Woodstock, Ontario

Deadline January 3, 2012

 

Position: Epidemiologist (Competition # 2011-145)

Location: Public Health and Emergency Services Department (Oxford County Board of Health)

 

Employment Status: Permanent Full-time

Reporting To: Manager of Health Protection/Promotion

Union Affiliation: C.U.P.E.

Wage Rate: $35.31/hr. - $42.03/hr. (Beef: for 37.5 hrs/wk this is

68854-81958/yr)

 

Qualifications:

 

Masters degree in Epidemiology; minimum one year of public health practice; demonstrates advanced skills in computer applications relative to epidemiology (e.g. statistical packages, database programs, Epi-info, spreadsheets); application of epidemiological & statistical methods; excellent communication skills (verbal and written) along with strong facilitation, project management and organizational skills; priority setting, time management and creative problem solving; mentoring and supervision of student placements.

 

http://www.ohpe.ca/node/12862

 

What ever direction you choose it will be the right decision for you.

 

Beef

[aaronjw]

I wish I was younger. Epidemiology is such a fascinating area of study

[Kasiunut]

kpm its funny you say that the undergrad is a step backwards. Those were the exact words of a family member close to me. I agree that the MPH is a step forwards, but I also believe that in order to take a step forward (medicine) you need to take a step backwards (2 yr undergrad). Its little sacrifice for a long career. The question is, do it at 25 (Im 24 for another month), or 27 after busting my butt for 2 years in the MPH (its a hard degree).

 

I feel like if I do it after the MPH, THAT will be a major step backwards, and be very difficult to do. I just think if I don't redo the 2 years now, I maybe never will. I am a very determined person and also believe that if medicine is your passion, you do whatever it takes. But Im also trying to be realistic given I HAD planned to do the 2 year undergrad now.

 

Obviously I could reapply to the MPH and not get in, but at least I could keep applying to medicine.

 

Medicine keeps getting more competitive, the sooner I am competitive enough to apply the better IMO.

 

At this point, my biggest concern is not accepting the offer and getting backlash from family and references. But I have often found myself in the past making decisions just to appease others (not the right ones).

 

As for age and kids, I realize having kids after 35 increases risk but that is so far from my mind at this point its irrelevant. My career decisions won't be dictated by my biological clock and this is a priority for me.

 

I think you answered your own question. We are just giving *our* points of view. I still think doing the MPH would be awesome and seems like such a good back up (as opposed to my back up with is currently....oh right, nothing ). Med school may be getting more competitive but its not going anywhere either.

 

But ultimately YOU know what you need to do..I guess just look forward 2 years, what if your GPA isn't great (life happens...you might get sick, a family member might get sick etc) would you regret it then that you didn't do the MPH? If not, then its a clear winner to decline but if you think you might...think about it more before you make your decision.

[paloma22]

I do not know how competitive the program that accepted you is. Financially, you can do the MPH, then work for a year or do and save money for the 2nd undergrad. This will make you a more competitive candidate. 27 is young, so is 32.

 

I heard this program is about a ~10% acceptance rate. Correct me anyone if I am wrong though.