Going full circle: From undergrad to M.Sc. to Ph.D to undergrad- advice?

[Potofgold]

Hi all,

 

As with a lot of people, I've been a long time lurker but now a first time poster.

 

So my situation is becoming more and more non-trad as time passes. I graduated with a poor undergrad cGPA, science GPA, you name it. I came out not knowing what I wanted to do, since I had written off med by second year, given my grades. I had been a stellar student all my life but things changed when I hit university (as always and with almost everyone). However instead of fighting back, I had a major confidence crash and came to accept mediocrity i.e. I came to tell myself that making class average was good enough in my program at my school because it was just so 'competitive' and 'hard'. In attempting to move on, I ended up in grad school, doing a M.Sc. in basic science research which I came to absolutely love. I finally thought I had found my calling in research. Furthermore and surprisingly, or maybe not so, it was my research experience that completely changed my perspective and gave me the motivation to pursue research AND medicine. I started thinking about MD/PhD routes and am passionate about one day being a clinician scientist. I applied to med after my M.Sc. and was rejected with no surprise. So I decided to plough ahead and do the Ph.D. since it is something I did want to pursue with the MD, or after it. Now that I'm in the middle of my Ph.D. program, reality is starting to strike, which is that my undergrad marks will haunt me to my grave and prevent me from achieving my ultimate goals. I could be happy with just a Ph.D. and do basic science research, but there is always this gnawing feeling inside me that wants to understand the clinical side of things, which I truly feel will make me a more effective researcher.

 

I apologize for the long shpiel. So basically what I'm thinking of now is how to salvage my undergrad disaster. I'm definitely not doing the Ph.D. to improve my chances to get into med because that's not the reality. The reality is the undergrad. What I'm thinking of doing is taking 2 years of undergrad through distance ed (Athabasca most likely) to make myself a contender at schools like Queen's, Dal, Calgary, Western, etc who look at last/best 2 years of undergrad. The crazy thing is that I'm contemplating taking courses during my Ph.D. I'm hoping to do 3 courses (I think that qualifies as a full course load at some schools like Queen's). I would register as an unclassified/non-degree student. Grad school is a full-time job and then some, so I do know what I'm getting into with an extra 3 undergrad courses, which is some crazy. And the other thing is, I don't know how schools will look at this i.e. doing undergrad courses while in grad school (and whether my grad school affairs will have problems with this... i.e. is this even errr legal to do?). I'll have to look into it but I wanted to get some opinions as to whether this plan is really feasible. I could wait to finish the Ph.D. and then do the undergrad courses but I figure it's better to get a head start on things. I had thought about second degree options after my M.Sc. but I really could not see myself going back to do undergrad since I wanted to 'advance' and move ahead. And doing another undergrad 'just to get into med school' always seemed a bit iffy to me, it felt too calculated and strategic. But with my current undergrad reality check, if that's what Canadian schools want, then that's what they're going to get.

 

Opinions and reality checks are invited. Thank you for your time

 

(Apologies if my request for advice is somewhat incoherent and long-winded, it's late at night and I've been trying to read some scientific papers while thinking about my situation, not the best mix hehe).

[osteon]

Hi all,

 

As with a lot of people, I've been a long time lurker but now a first time poster.

 

So my situation is becoming more and more non-trad as time passes. I graduated with a poor undergrad cGPA, science GPA, you name it. I came out not knowing what I wanted to do, since I had written off med by second year, given my grades. I had been a stellar student all my life but things changed when I hit university (as always and with almost everyone). However instead of fighting back, I had a major confidence crash and came to accept mediocrity i.e. I came to tell myself that making class average was good enough in my program at my school because it was just so 'competitive' and 'hard'. In attempting to move on, I ended up in grad school, doing a M.Sc. in basic science research which I came to absolutely love. I finally thought I had found my calling in research. Furthermore and surprisingly, or maybe not so, it was my research experience that completely changed my perspective and gave me the motivation to pursue research AND medicine. I started thinking about MD/PhD routes and am passionate about one day being a clinician scientist. I applied to med after my M.Sc. and was rejected with no surprise. So I decided to plough ahead and do the Ph.D. since it is something I did want to pursue with the MD, or after it. Now that I'm in the middle of my Ph.D. program, reality is starting to strike, which is that my undergrad marks will haunt me to my grave and prevent me from achieving my ultimate goals. I could be happy with just a Ph.D. and do basic science research, but there is always this gnawing feeling inside me that wants to understand the clinical side of things, which I truly feel will make me a more effective researcher.

I apologize for the long shpiel. So basically what I'm thinking of now is how to salvage my undergrad disaster. I'm definitely not doing the Ph.D. to improve my chances to get into med because that's not the reality. The reality is the undergrad. What I'm thinking of doing is taking 2 years of undergrad through distance ed (Athabasca most likely) to make myself a contender at schools like Queen's, Dal, Calgary, Western, etc who look at last/best 2 years of undergrad. The crazy thing is that I'm contemplating taking courses during my Ph.D. I'm hoping to do 3 courses (I think that qualifies as a full course load at some schools like Queen's). I would register as an unclassified/non-degree student. Grad school is a full-time job and then some, so I do know what I'm getting into with an extra 3 undergrad courses, which is some crazy. And the other thing is, I don't know how schools will look at this i.e. doing undergrad courses while in grad school (and whether my grad school affairs will have problems with this... i.e. is this even errr legal to do?). I'll have to look into it but I wanted to get some opinions as to whether this plan is really feasible. I could wait to finish the Ph.D. and then do the undergrad courses but I figure it's better to get a head start on things. I had thought about second degree options after my M.Sc. but I really could not see myself going back to do undergrad since I wanted to 'advance' and move ahead. And doing another undergrad 'just to get into med school' always seemed a bit iffy to me, it felt too calculated and strategic. But with my current undergrad reality check, if that's what Canadian schools want, then that's what they're going to get.

 

Opinions and reality checks are invited. Thank you for your time

 

(Apologies if my request for advice is somewhat incoherent and long-winded, it's late at night and I've been trying to read some scientific papers while thinking about my situation, not the best mix hehe).

 

A couple things stand out that warrant consideration, which I've highlighted in bold.

 

1. Although an MD/PhD will give you clinical knowledge, it definitely won't make you a more effective researcher, in the purest sense of the the word "effective." What it will do is make you a different kind of researcher. The point of an MD/PhD is so that as a clinician, you identify problems in practice, and then use your PhD knowledge to solve it, and then translate it back to clinical practice with your MD. But if it's strictly clinically oriented research that you're after, an MD/PhD doesn't provide much benefit - you can do clinical research with just a PhD, and rely on other forms of translation back to clinical practice, and talk with MD colleagues about where the gaps are. In my opinion, it all comes down to whether you simply want to know the clinical side of things, or actually practice them. If it's practicing them, MD/PhD is for you; if not, then it's not worth it at all.

 

2. I don't think you can do distance ed at the same time as the PhD. Not just from a time perspective, but pretty sure you're not allowed to be registered simultaneously at more than one place. Doing the undergrad courses during the PhD at your own institution won't help either as they wouldn't count as extra undergrad years this way.

 

3. You'll need to do more than 3 courses per semester. Queens accepts 3, but everywhere else is 5 (some are 4, like Calgary or uOttawa I think). What this means is that you'd have to do 2 years after your PhD, then med school (4 years), then residency (2-5 years), so about 8-11 extra years after the PhD. Something to consider before diving in.

 

 

 

Some extra things to consider:

 

1. Unfortunately, since you'll have finished the PhD before med, you won't be classified as a true MD/PhD student. Once you have both degrees there's no difference, but going through med school as a true MD/PhD means you get some tuition support all the way through med school = less debt. Going through med school with a PhD, but not as MD/PhD means 150K in debt, like everyone else.

 

2. Although many schools look at last 2 years, often this is just a screening tool. For instance, at Calgary, they might look at it, but it's cGPA that will ultimately be the deciding factor. Doing an entirely second undergrad would therefore be the better option (would still take only 2 years).

 

3. If you do decide to do another undergrad, do it in a different province to gain an advantage. Nova Scotia could be a good option; Alberta can, but Calgary is heavily EC based, and can be the detriment to an otherwise strong applicant. Not sure about Sask, but know their admission rates are high.

 

Good luck in whatever you choose!

[Slashsev]

thats depressing

[lovestruck]

You really need to consider what you want here. Clinical practice and clinical research are two different things. As mentionned above, clinical research can be done without the MD but not clinical practice. The road ahead of you will take many many years, as you'll have to finish your PhD and then the extra years of undergrad. Do you want this enough to sacrifice the next 10 years of your life both personally and financially?

[Potofgold]

Thanks for the insight lovestruck.

 

I realize my motivation for the MD/PhD may not have come across clearly but it is definitely translational research that I am interested in i.e. identifying problems in clinical practice, taking them to the lab to understand and solve them at the basic science level and then translating solutions back to the clinic. Hence I say 'effective' researcher in the context of translational research because having a clinical background helps in better understanding and translating clinical problems from the clinic to the lab and vice versa. I'm definitely more interested in basic science research, not clinical research (although that may change, who knows), but with that, have the ability to translate to the clinic and engage in clinical practice.

 

I do know that the road ahead is long and difficult but I am motivated to do this. I've sacrificed a lot already and making some more sacrifices for something I really want and believe in is 'worth it' to me. You've mentioned some good points, so thank you. While doing the MD/PhD degrees together in a combined program does afford financial advantages, it's not something I'd dwell on. I think I'd be better off doing the degrees separately, but that's just my opinion.

 

In terms of taking distance ed undergrad courses, I will definitely have to weight all the factors before plunging in- full course loads, the reality of the cGPA, etc. are all things to consider. Doing it in a different province would also be ideal.

 

Thanks again.

[Nasket]

If you choose to pursue few courses over the next couple years, I would keep Mac Med as your top school to pursue.

Having a completed PhD definitely helps as well. You get an enormous bonus (4%) for having a completed PhD. Also, AFAIK, Mac Med does not care if your courses have been via distance, summer or part-time because your cGPA is all that matters.

[souljaboy]

If you choose to pursue few courses over the next couple years, I would keep Mac Med as your top school to pursue.

Having a completed PhD definitely helps as well. You get an enormous bonus (4%) for having a completed PhD. Also, AFAIK, Mac Med does not care if your courses have been via distance, summer or part-time because your cGPA is all that matters.

 

That might not work for him since he said he had a poor undergrad GPA and Mac looks at ALL your undergraduate years. the 4% isn't going to matter when 32% is based on GPA. IMO you should do 2 more full years of undergrad it'll give you a normal chance at Queen's and 1 or 2 other places (not sure about out of ontario schools). Western wouldn't work since you'll need to be finishing your current undergrad degree, so you can only apply in 4th year.

[Nasket]

That might not work for him since he said he had a poor undergrad GPA and Mac looks at ALL your undergraduate years. the 4% isn't going to matter when 32% is based on GPA. IMO you should do 2 more full years of undergrad it'll give you a normal chance at Queen's and 1 or 2 other places (not sure about out of ontario schools). Western wouldn't work since you'll need to be finishing your current undergrad degree, so you can only apply in 4th year.

 

It depends on how poor that GPA is. I am just saying it because I understand how difficult it is to dedicate 2 full-time years (and 10 courses) to an undergrad degree and then apply the year after that (3 years) at a stage when you are finished your PhD. Maybe he wants to do a post-doc, instead of investing 3 uncertain years?

 

Even with that, how many schools are you increasing your shots at? Maybe he could still apply during his 2nd year, but if his GPA is actually that low, then his shots would still not be as good (possibly a conditional offer at Western if he pursues a 2 year honours degree)

 

The option I suggested would still let him take a lot of courses to pull the GPA up, through a part-time and/or distance basis.

[Potofgold]

Thanks guys for all the responses and feedback, I really appreciate it.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is if it's worth doing 2 years of undergrad after the Ph.D. to give me a better chance at schools that will look at that i.e. Queen's, Dal, UofC etc., or alternatively, focus on schools that take into consideration graduate work such as UofT, UofC, UBC (?) and just go with my Ph.D. and apply. I have to basically decide what schools to zero in on and try my best to meet their criteria. Mac would be difficult since they look at all grades and courses you've ever taken. And as we all know, even another 4-year undergrad degree may not boost you up to a stellar cGPA if you have a poor GPA to begin with.

 

So I know what I'm facing and want to be as well prepared as I can and work with what I have, which is difficult. As I said before, I could put my everything into the Ph.D. and go with that, but it's a risk. On the other hand, doing 2 more years of undergrad is also a risk. For UofT, I do qualify for the weighted GPA since I took full courseloads throughout my 4 years of undergrad, so that helps. And UofC is attractive if I choose to become in-province. I thought UBC got rid of the 10-year rule hmmm..

 

It's a lot to think about, but thank you all for the feedback