Family Medicine Dreams only... Ireland a Good Choice?

[goinhome]

Hello everybody!

I'm just wondering if anybody could shine a light on whether or not I should look seriously into going to an Irish medical school. I have submitted applications to all the Irish schools. I understand it is very hard to obtain a spot in a 'competitive' residency as an IMG, but my sole goal is to work as a Family Physician here in Canada. I don't wish to get into any kind of surgical or IM residency whatsoever. I have family in Ireland, tuition fees would not be an issue, and I don't wish to match to any discipline other than Family Medicine, are there any other reasons why I shouldn't attend an Irish medical school?

[NLengr]

Hello everybody!

I'm just wondering if anybody could shine a light on whether or not I should look seriously into going to an Irish medical school. I have submitted applications to all the Irish schools. I understand it is very hard to obtain a spot in a 'competitive' residency as an IMG, but my sole goal is to work as a Family Physician here in Canada. I don't wish to get into any kind of surgical or IM residency whatsoever. I have family in Ireland, tuition fees would not be an issue, and I don't wish to match to any discipline other than Family Medicine, are there any other reasons why I shouldn't attend an Irish medical school?

 

I would just be aware that by the time you are done, the ability of IMG's to match to the US may be gone due to increased US grads. On top of that, keep an eye on CaRMS data, because we are also churning out more grads without really increasing residency spots.

 

This will mean more competition (?stiffer) for Canadian spots, even family.

 

Going international for med school will be much much riskier than it was 5-10 years ago if the US is shut down to IMG's.

[bnface]

I would just be aware that by the time you are done, the ability of IMG's to match to the US may be gone due to increased US grads. On top of that, keep an eye on CaRMS data, because we are also churning out more grads without really increasing residency spots.

 

This will mean more competition (?stiffer) for Canadian spots, even family.

 

Going international for med school will be much much riskier than it was 5-10 years ago if the US is shut down to IMG's.

 

wow, i didn't realize this was happening. thanks for that. article below:

 

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200

[Slashsev]

my own observations

 

US trained osteopaths (aka DOs) are growing at crazy rates to close the gap on IMGs

 

the US is trying to develop a self sustaining health care system..it is more prosperous for everyone (the idiot canadian govrn has not recognized that)

 

25% is IMGS per yr right now

 

DOs are going to make that drop

 

1 in 4 graduating witll be a DO now...

 

im not here to feed you DO bull****...

 

like i said its only my observation

 

add the fact that theirs a new merging of AOA and ACGME

 

I THINK IMGS are done in USA

[Slashsev]

again my own observation

 

i think in the nxt 2-3-4-5 yrs if u start an img medical program..you will NOT find work PERIOD

 

you will be broke on ur ass with **** load of debt and **** waste of effort

[bnface]

Here is more recent stuff to confirm your thoughts, Slashsev

 

"At the current expansion rate, graduates from U.S. medical and osteopathic schools alone will exceed the number of expected residencies by the end of the decade, the Association of American Medical Colleges predicts.

 

Residency applicants from foreign schools are likely to be squeezed out, medical educators say, which could make it more difficult to fill the nation's growing needs in primary care, which includes internal medicine, family medicine and pediatrics"

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324096404578356544137516914.html

[Slashsev]

dude..DOs are growing like crazy!!...

 

i think theres a total of another 5-15 schools with expansions (by that i mean either an increase in class size, branch campus, or a new school altogether)

 

 

IMGS are done in the USA....in the next 2-5 yrs if u do IMG you will not have a job in n. america

 

today if you dont know what a DO is and you actually decide to go IMG..you have not done your research...

 

 

i think the game has changed significantly in the last 5 yrs...an IMG as a decent option is now long gone

[advair250]

There will always be room for IMGs, because there will always still be rural spots that people don't want. It will just be much more competitive than it already is(which is already super compet.)

[Slashsev]

majority of DOs are rural based

 

 

...but now their going into big cities, incl the school and the residency positions...

[missmathematics]

If you want family medicine after going abroad, consider this:

 

RCSI tuition is approx. $66,000 per year.

 

66, 000 times four= $264,000

 

Living costs per year are about $15,000

 

15,000 times four=60,000

 

Total tuition and living costs is $324 000

 

Oh wait, this doesn't even include your FLIGHTS back home and also for your ELECTIVES.

 

So then let's estimate closer to $400,000. If you borrow this much money at a certain interest rate, how much is it going to be later on while you are getting paid a measly $50,000 during residency? And then around $150 000 as a doc? What quality of life will you be living?

 

Doctors spend their lifetime trying to pay back these debts. Do you want to sacrifice everything (literally everything) for this? What if your future kids need money? What if you have a mortgage? How will you afford ANYTHING in life?

 

It doesn't make financial sense.

[NLengr]

If you can get a residency.

[leviathan]

400k is a lot of money but nothing a family physician could not pay off. It wouldn't take a lifetime unless they aren't smart with their money (admittedly many docs aren't) or don't know where/how to work to make a decent income.

[missmathematics]

Pay off when? And with what quality of life?

 

After 30 years of working with that money accruing interest in the meantime?

 

A resident makes about 50,000. And they would owe like...maybe more than 400, 000 to the bank (in life unexpected expenses come up which will add to this). And then as a family doc you think you can pay off that much of a loan in a decent time? If you think this is a normal financial situation to be in then you need a reality check.

 

I don't think a lot of people realize in what a deep financial hole they get into when they go abroad. In fact I know some people who went abroad and when I asked how they were going to pay it back, they said they hadn't given it a single thought.

 

It should be criminal for the schools to charge this amount of money.

 

Leviathan, if you planned this out financially, can you tell us how you calculated a family doc making ends meet with this much debt with a breakdown of expenses?

 

Thank you

[missmathematics]

All of this is assuming that the person gets a residency.

 

It must be horrible not knowing if it is going to happen while knowing that the banks are after you.

[leviathan]

I'll say that for sure. The last 4 years of my life were pretty nerve-wracking until I matched. Even more grateful that it was in Canada.

 

Family docs can easily pull in 200-300k/year if they work hard and work smart. All tuition is tax deductible as well. The median income of Canadians is $69,860...if you spent that much each year to live and saved the rest, that leaves you with at least $130,000 of tax-free income towards your loans per year, so about 3 years to pay off everything. Obviously very few people have the restraint to live that way, and there are other expenses to consider, and accrued interest, but the point is it's not going to take a lifetime to pay off unless you want it to. But to answer your question about "what quality of life", that would be the quality of life of the average Canadian.

 

Still, the thought of having to pay almost $300,000 in tuition makes me sick to my stomach and I personally wouldn't have gone to Ireland for med school.

[Slashsev]

ur in canada?!! practicing?

[leviathan]

ur in canada?!! practicing?

Yes. I start my residency in Canada in July.

[Slashsev]

OMG!! that amazing! congrats on that!

[BoyInTheBubble]

I'll say that for sure. The last 4 years of my life were pretty nerve-wracking until I matched. Even more grateful that it was in Canada.

 

Family docs can easily pull in 200-300k/year if they work hard and work smart. All tuition is tax deductible as well. The median income of Canadians is $69,860...if you spent that much each year to live and saved the rest, that leaves you with at least $130,000 of tax-free income towards your loans per year, so about 3 years to pay off everything. Obviously very few people have the restraint to live that way, and there are other expenses to consider, and accrued interest, but the point is it's not going to take a lifetime to pay off unless you want it to. But to answer your question about "what quality of life", that would be the quality of life of the average Canadian.

 

Still, the thought of having to pay almost $300,000 in tuition makes me sick to my stomach and I personally wouldn't have gone to Ireland for med school.

 

Your math is a little off.

 

Your tuition goes towards a tax credit NOT a deduction. You will essentially only receive 15% of your tuition/education/textbook amount as a deduction from the tax you owe. It also comes off immediately once you start making money, meaning it will apply to your PGY1 salary which is less beneficial than if you could "hold on to it" until you are making full pay postresidency.

 

The amount of money you make as a family doc in your first couple of years will not be as much as, say 10 years out. More start up costs, licensing, whatever else on top of the fact that you don't start out with a 1000 patients. AND you work slower. Also, joining a FHN or FHO, or whatever other blended payment model (those are ontario terms) is becoming increasingly difficult. Ontario only takes 25 new doctors a month. Most of the applicants are already working and looking to switch not new grads! So plan for your gross income to be on the lower side of the estimates. Yes, you can make lots of money - more than 300K, but it likely won't be in year 1! That being said, living like you make your residency salary for a couple years beyond residency will serve you quite well.

[leviathan]

Your math is a little off.

 

Your tuition goes towards a tax credit NOT a deduction. You will essentially only receive 15% of your tuition/education/textbook amount as a deduction from the tax you owe. It also comes off immediately once you start making money, meaning it will apply to your PGY1 salary which is less beneficial than if you could "hold on to it" until you are making full pay postresidency.

You're absolutely right about this. I filed my own taxes this year and realized it only applies as a tax credit. That sucks! Nevertheless a tax credit is a tax credit whether you use it in your PGY1 year or your first year as an attending, unless I'm not accounting for something (no pun intended).

 

The amount of money you make as a family doc in your first couple of years will not be as much as, say 10 years out. More start up costs, licensing, whatever else on top of the fact that you don't start out with a 1000 patients.

This is assuming you start your own practice. Again maybe things are vastly different in the rest of Canada, but most fresh grads usually locum for the first few years in BC. After that, most just decide to latch onto a clinic on a permanent basis on take their split. There's an FP who posts on here who did locums and nursing home stuff, disability and insurance paperwork, workers comp and ICBC etc. his first few years out and made a killing. A friend of my spouse graduated with a bunch of debt, and his billings last year grossed $350,000. Take the average split of 70% and that's still 245,000, and that's not accounting for all the private patients, WCB, disability forms etc.

 

That being said, living like you make your residency salary for a couple years beyond residency will serve you quite well.

Yep this is the most important advice of all. If you live frugally all that 'extra' income can cut your loans down really fast. The problem is this is often easier said than done for most people when they start seeing those paycheques roll in.

[craigdanny]

You're absolutely right about this. I filed my own taxes this year and realized it only applies as a tax credit. That sucks! Nevertheless a tax credit is a tax credit whether you use it in your PGY1 year or your first year as an attending, unless I'm not accounting for something (no pun intended).

 

 

This is assuming you start your own practice. Again maybe things are vastly different in the rest of Canada, but most fresh grads usually locum for the first few years in BC. After that, most just decide to latch onto a clinic on a permanent basis on take their split. There's an FP who posts on here who did locums and nursing home stuff, disability and insurance paperwork, workers comp and ICBC etc. his first few years out and made a killing. A friend of my spouse graduated with a bunch of debt, and his billings last year grossed $350,000. Take the average split of 70% and that's still 245,000, and that's not accounting for all the private patients, WCB, disability forms etc.

 

 

Yep this is the most important advice of all. If you live frugally all that 'extra' income can cut your loans down really fast. The problem is this is often easier said than done for most people when they start seeing those paycheques roll in.

 

you're right,

 

living truly frugally $245000 can practically all be used towards paying back debt except for possibly ~$30 000 for food, rent, transport

 

that -40% tax would be ~$140000 idk how foreign tuition credits apply but if you're from a canadian school, tuition credits are typically all gone within 2 years of residency

[Edict]

If you want family medicine after going abroad, consider this:

 

RCSI tuition is approx. $66,000 per year.

 

66, 000 times four= $264,000

 

Living costs per year are about $15,000

 

15,000 times four=60,000

 

Total tuition and living costs is $324 000

 

Oh wait, this doesn't even include your FLIGHTS back home and also for your ELECTIVES.

 

So then let's estimate closer to $400,000. If you borrow this much money at a certain interest rate, how much is it going to be later on while you are getting paid a measly $50,000 during residency? And then around $150 000 as a doc? What quality of life will you be living?

 

Doctors spend their lifetime trying to pay back these debts. Do you want to sacrifice everything (literally everything) for this? What if your future kids need money? What if you have a mortgage? How will you afford ANYTHING in life?

 

It doesn't make financial sense.

 

Its true, I wouldn't go abroad unless you have financial support from your parents. RCSI is the most expensive school in Ireland, other schools are cheaper.

[Slashsev]

ull be in debt for the rest of ur life, with no of a future in sight-- that will be depressing