Life after school

[Guest osindy]

I know this has been addressed in spurts in the past but I was wondering in terms of today's economic climate. What do you guys think the economic climate would be like in after dental school. What will the overhead be like for the average dental practice? What will be the average gross and net pay for associates? those with their own practice?

 

Lets talk economics here.

[Guest JK]

I think you bring up very valid points. Here are my thoughts. Given that our beloved baby boomers are aging and thus their teeth are falling out, we have a significant proportion of the population who will require major dental work. In addition, depending on demographics of area, there are pockets where many people have lots of disposible income and are well insured and can afford dental work.

 

Overhead costs are more tricky since the size of an average dental office can vary tremendously. I have been fortunate enough to have done work which required me to visit many dental offices, and from my experience offices vary in size. For the sake of arguement, lets use an example practice, with 3 operating rooms, and 3 hygiene rooms, 2 secretaries, 2 dental assistance, 1 primary dentist, 1 practice administrator/accountant. Depending on location, and quality of practice including factors such as equipment and asthetics (i.e. waterfalls), we are looking at costs ranging from 750,000-2.5 million.

 

Annual revenue comes from more then just drilling and filling, and routine hygiene. It can also be generated from sources such as renting out operating rooms to specialists such as periodontists. With a patient list of 5,000 which is I think above average for a practice with just 1 dentist, you are looking at bringing home an average salary ranging from 130-200ish on a good year.

 

These are just estimates, and are from my humble opinion. Please add your thoughts on my simple analysis.

[Guest predent2003]

I'll be the devil's Advocacy here.

On average, people in this profession have been doing well, but certainly not everyone.

I talked to a recently retired O/MF surgeon and he told me that all the talks about more dentist retiring soon aren't so true. People can retire later because dentist are self-employed, and with 2 to 3 hundred graduates per year, we won't see too much of a dentist shortage.

I also have talked to a number a dentist and their wives. They all told me that the overhead cost of running an office is insane. It goes up to 60-70% of your gross income. It is hard to cut down this because you want to make sure that you are giving quality service to your patients. The dentist I volunteer for is doing very well. However, it was a result of 5 to 7 years of hard work before he got developed and see the cash running into his account. The associates he has though, aren't doing too well. This is because the patient number is not as great as what we thought. Nowadays, there are still many people who cannot afford dental services and do not have dental insurance. An associate has to pay his "boss" a good 35% of his income. If the patient # isn't too great, the annual income of a associate could be just enough to maintain living and pay off the crazy loans we have.

Nevertheless, we all have to go through periods hard times right? There are no free lunch in this world. One has to work hard to get what they want. Many people think that doctors get pay really well. For a matter of fact, most doctors have to work in @#%$ area and do @#%$ work in the first few years with suprisingly low salary. So don't be too optimistic, but do keep the hopes high!

[Guest toothy jr]

The offer of a full-time associate position could in fact be a curse in disguise. Being at the office 8 hours a day 6 days a week does not mean 48 hours per week of productivity. There could be lots of down-time when there aren't patients, and this is either caused by not enough total patients, or the principal owner is not sharing. So, in an urban setting many 04 grads would prefer to have a couple of part-time spots to offset things.

 

An associate should expect to take 30-40% of gross billings (or collections). The principal owner does not earn much from it, since the overhead is 60-70% anyway (there is not a loss because fixed overhead such as rent does not change with production). A typical new grad can earn 60-80k and most start their own practice after 3-5 years.

 

An aside, there's sometimes talk that people's teeth are getting cleaner, or new technologies being developed that could eliminate our jobs. I say phooey, because toothpaste has been around for centuries and yet from what I have seen in the clinic, not everyone has discovered it. (So I ask them about their oral hygiene, and 100% of my patients brush 3 times a day and floss diligently, yeah right!)

[Guest TheDDSDude]

Man, with such stats...I'm going to the USA to work

[Guest LestatZinnie]

you can not open your own clinic unless you are an american citizen i believe.

[Guest pearlywhitesBC]

Yeah, but don't forget that malpractice insurance is VERY VERY VERY expensive in the states. Americans really seem to like to sue eachother and healthcare professionals are exceptionally vulnerable.

 

I've hear that it can cost around a hundred thousand dollars per year. That would take a really big chunk out of your earnings!

 

How's that for devil's advocate :evil

 

[Guest TheDDSDude]

LestatZinnie, I am aware of such a loophole regarding the opening of a clinic but even then working as an associate in the US would make you tons of money and getting a greencard, well there are two ways that I can think of getting one. First is to apply for it as a skilled worker, it may take some years...because I know a lot of people who went to school in Canada end up practicing down there. Second, well...

 

Ok enough about that.

 

Malpractice insurance is high! But even with such a high insurance, dentists in the US still end up making more money than here. They seem to be doing very well. At least the ones I know.

[Guest toothy jr]

I hear sometimes that the cost of living is higher in the States. Not sure if anybody here knows about this in detail, but in terms of real estate, day-to-day expenses etc, I wonder if 150kUSD buys more or less than 150kCdn? I'm just using that figure because it's a ballpark income for a dentist in each country respectively. Personally, I do not have aspirations to make piles of money, so living in Canada and working leisurely hours is a-ok

[Guest TheDDSDude]

Well according to a social science class I took, Americans have higher purchasing power than we do.

[Guest pearlywhitesBC]

Hmmmmm....

 

I guess you would have to look at what your priorities are! If money is REALLY important and that is why you've entered this field (and I'm NOT saying that this statement applies to any of you...how would I know?), then you probably would want to move to the states because chances are, you'll make more money that way.

 

Personally, I would have a really hard time with that because I've become increasingly averse to American culture. I don't know if it is a country that I would want to live in and potentially raise a family! I don't know...it's a tough one. :\

[Guest TheDDSDude]

It's not that I'm in only for the money, but at the same time I consider myself to be a very practical person. Canadian culture is not that much different than American culture. Many things they do are similar. Look at it this way, you get paid more for doing the same job so technically everything is more or less the same. It's like being an NHL player. You can play on a team for X amount of dollars and if another team that you want to play for pays you more money, why not.

[Guest pearlywhitesBC]

I agree with you in that you have to be practical. Especially if you want to have a family. Life can be pretty expensive these days!!

 

I agree that on the surface, American and Canadian culture seem to be pretty similar. We do alot of the same things and lead fairly similar lives. What I'm talking about is differences in ideals and beliefs. Canadian culture differs quite a bit from American culture in thier views on war, the environment, equality, THE REST OF THE WORLD, racism (this can still be a big problem down there - I have many american friends who struggle with this one!), religious tolerance, GUNS (ever seen bowling for columbine? If not, I suggest that you rent it!). I just don't think that I could hack it! And don't even get me started on the President...

[Guest TheDDSDude]

It was an interesting movie, but you gotta also look it at from the perspective that the movie isn't the be all end all, there are always different sides of the story. I have a lot of family down there and they are cool. Each to his own.

 

It's definitely a lot warmer. Meh..we'll worry about that when we are dentists, still plenty of time to decide. RIght now I'm gonna chill and enjoy my summer.

 

Working out, partying, relaxing with a good drink, just enjoy the nice weather all done with my buddies.

[Guest pearlywhitesBC]

I agree....better to not think about it!

 

Yeah, I have alot of REALLY cool friends from the states, too. I wasn't meaning to diss anyone who lives there!

[Guest toothy jr]

Yeah, I think the states only seems to be so flawed because we are looking at it from the outside. If you actually live there it's probably not too hard to overlook the skewed politics, high crime rate etc, because they likely won't affect day-to-day activities. Meanwhile, the warmer winters and lower tax rate will have a daily positive impact.

[Guest rez32]

Yeah, tell me about it -- I think I heard the other day that for top income earners in Canada, 51% of their earnings go towards income tax. I can totally understand why people would rather work in the States. Don't get me wrong, I love it here in Toronto, but to have most of your earnings taken away from you, it's no wonder people take their skills down south. Canada is a great place for low-income earners and seniors who benefit from all the services taxes provide, but for people who are on the higher tax brackets, it's tough.

[Guest TheDDSDude]

Canada is good because you can literally sit on your ass and the Government would take care of you. You don't have to do anything, but yeah once you work hard and get lots of money your hard earned money gets taxed and given to those people...it's horrible...

[Guest toothy jr]

with regards to tax, I don't think it really is that bad, it's just the amount above a certain bracket that gets axed 51%. And with professionals who set themselves as a corporation the tax rate is much lower.

 

I'm not exactly a left wing guy, but things could happen, and I could end up incapacitated before graduating, or myself/my family needing help with medical services some point in the future. So spreading the money to benefit everyone is not totally disgusting to me.

[Guest TheDDSDude]

the medicare stuff is good and SOME of the social programs for the disadvantaged are good. But hard working people shouldn't get their money taxed so heavily so that some lazier people can use it. Like I'm not talking aobut Poor Joe who has to work two jobs and still fail to make ends meet. I'm talking about Lazy Bill sitting on his ass all day and get welfare rather than getting up to find a job.

 

I look at it like this. You work hard to get 95% on a test. Some dude is failing because he didn't study. Is it fair to take off a few percent from your test and give it to that dude that didn't study just so he could pass? Yes you still have 85% but that dude now went from a 45% to 55%

[Guest DrBadVibes]

Hey DDSdude....I have NO idea where you are getting your information that the US is the land of the tax free, but it is WAYYYYYY off. In the US, people get taxed a lot as well, especially if you are in a higher tax bracket (i.e. being a dentist)....already, 30-35% of your income goes to the federal gov't, and then you have state income tax on top of that, which varies....11% in California. So I dont know where you are getting this information from.

 

And about giving your money to so called "lazy people"....its a much better way to spend these tax dollars on helping people rather on a military and war.

 

Highest Military budget in the World: US - $379 billion

Second highest Military budget: England - $35 billion

 

Wow, thats a huge difference of $344 billion! Looks like your hard earned dentist salary IS gonna be taxed and be given to a killing machine controlled by rich elites! Im so jealous of ya!

[Guest TheDDSDude]

i never said you don't get taxed a lot in the US. Just taxed a bit less even in the upper tax bracket. How do I know? Not to brag but just to prove a point. Because my family that lives in the US are in the upper tax bracket. They've managed to keep it controlled. And they still don't pay as much tax as the ones in Canada. It was my family that told me to go down to the US coz you would make more money and get taxed less than if making the same amount in Canada or making a bit less.

[Guest DrBadVibes]

Well, like I said, it varies by state.....if you live in California, you are paying a lot of taxes if you are in the higher tax bracket....if you live in Delaware, you arent' paying as much taxes.......but on the other hand, you can live in Alberta and pay little taxes as well.....to say by going down to the States you will pay less taxes is just too general......it varies....