Being a male applicant.

[r-bot]

meh. Gonna take the high road on this.

 

Good call for deleting, I was reporting that for being incredibly inappropriate.

The "high road" by the way, would include an apology.

 

Edit: MY bra and panties fit fine by the way, in case anyone was wondering.

[lwu018]

Ooh, good stats - they even calculate the success rates for each gender for us. Thank you for sharing this, lwu018!

 

Happy to help out when I can

[aaronjw]

Good call for deleting, I was reporting that for being incredibly inappropriate.

The "high road" by the way, would include an apology.

 

want some cheese with your whine?

[aaronjw]

Some info on female physician demographics and impact...

 

 

Female physicians in Canada have been notoriously underrepresented in the work force despite having medical school enrollment statistics that are relatively equal to males. From 1980 to 2000, female enrollment in medical school averaged 45.7% (Canadian Medical Association, 2010) and from 2001 to 2011 female enrollment averaged 57.6% (Canadian Medical Association, 2010). Unfortunately physician supply data from the Canadian Medical Association that indicates sex of practicing physicians only dates back to 1998, however, from 1998 to 2000 only 27.7% of the practicing physician workforce in Canada were female (Canadian Medical Association , 1998; Canadian Medical Association, 2000) and yet from 2001 to 2011 that number climbed to 35.6% (Canadian Medical Association, 2001; Canadian Medical Association, 2011) representing an encouraging and growing trend of seeing more female physicians in the work force. The challenge with this paradigm shift in physician supply is that female physicians, on average, work fewer hours than their male counterparts (Cooper, Getzen, McKee, & Laud, 2009; Watson, Slade, Buske, & Tepper, 2006); therefore as the number of female physicians continue to rise, the total work hours performed by physicians will decrease leaving patients with less access to physicians.

[Savac]

trojjanhorse, do you understand the implications of your post? I want to believe that you posted this with the best intentions, but as a fellow premed applicant - and someone who completed casper - I find it very difficult to believe that you accidentally forgot how much more privileged men are in our society over women.

 

You immediately thought that being a male applicant was some how disadvantageous, NOT that perhaps more women were applying or were more competitive, NOT that sex is favoured. This strikes me as quite odd.

 

And again, as someone who has completed McMaster, I would think that you are aware of the barriers in place to women in science? To becoming a physician? I have female friends who are still told by professors that they cannot be a doctor because "girls are afraid of blood". Honestly, this post of yours trivializes actual barriers that women face.

 

How do you think Mac assessors would view you if they saw that you posted this?

 

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

If anything, these stats are a testament to the fact that women are overcoming many of the barriers that used to exist. Obviously there are still many barriers that women face in society, but clearly it is no longer impossible for women to become a physician. Personally, I see this as progress.

 

Edit: The above post is very interesting. Clearly there are still many issues that need to be raised.

[Tee88]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

If anything, these stats are a testament to the fact that women are overcoming many of the barriers that used to exist. Obviously there are still many barriers that women face in society, but clearly it is no longer impossible for women to become a physician. Personally, I see this as progress.

 

Edit: The above post is very interesting. Clearly there are still many issues that need to be raised.

 

 

Just to throw it out there as another consideration; but perhaps more female applicants are choosing McMaster because it is a 3 year program and many women often have the pressure of their biological time clock working against them... so instead of McMaster CHOOSING more female applicants; perhaps more female applicants are choosing Mcmaster ....

 

just to throw out another conundrum

[r-bot]

Some info on female physician demographics and impact...

 

Women do a disproportionate amount of unpaid work. If women weren't assumed childcarers, cooks, and cleaners at home, the distribution of paid work, including as medical practitioners, would be more equal. Again, challenging gender essentialism would help address this issue. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-630-x/2008001/article/10705-eng.pdf

[ralk]

Just to throw it out there as another consideration; but perhaps more female applicants are choosing McMaster because it is a 3 year program and many women often have the pressure of their biological time clock working against them... so instead of McMaster CHOOSING more female applicants; perhaps more female applicants are choosing Mcmaster ....

 

just to throw out another conundrum

 

Interesting point!

 

It's difficult to tell whether women would accept more offers from McMaster than men would... we don't know how many women or men were given offers. However, courtesy of the numbers provided by lwu018, it does appear as though women are applying to McMaster preferentially, at least compared to men. That is, if a woman is applying to any med school, she will be more likely to apply to McMaster (45-46% of female applicants do) than a man (40-42% of male applicants apply to Mac). These numbers are still fairly close (and high - Mac really does get the most applications!)

 

In an odd wrinkle, however, the other 3-year school, Calgary, demonstrates the opposite trend - male med school applicants are more likely than female med school applicants to include a submission to Calgary.

[123izme]

I think that it's important to take a step back and look at how we define 'male' and 'female.' There are a lot of interesting thoughts out there about viewing gender as a binary concept (i.e. strictly male or female) and about differentiating between biological/anatomical sex, gender identity, gender expression, gender roles, gender fluidity, etc.

[BAMFtastic]

Discalimer: I am speaking in terms of genders objectively. I am not making assumptions on sexual orientation, etc. I am simply talking about numbers based on what gender the applicants self-identified

 

Ok – firstly I would like to speak in favor of OP. I have talked to him on many occasions and he seems like a pretty good guy. I have no complaints with him and I doubt this was meant as some attack, but rather an innocent question.

 

Unfortunately the two sets of number provided don’t match with dates (look below), but how about we match the two closest years. Therefore, the class of 2013 with the total pool of 08/09.

“Class of 2015: 119 Females 59%, 84 Males 41% (delta 35)

Class of 2014: 122 Females 60%, 82 Males 40% (delta 40)

Class of 2013: 128 Females 63%, 76 Males 37% (delta 52)

For 07 / 08 there were 1930 men and 2917 women

For 08 / 09 there were 1944 men and 2789 women”

 

This means: 128/2789 women = 4.6% chance of admissions (objectively speaking)

76/1944 men = 3.9% chance of admissions (Objectively speaking)

 

Now, this is a much more narrow margin. I really don’t think the admissions team is going to discriminate against people based on their gender. There are quite simply more women in university now than men. (If someone can find the specific stat – thanks) This implies there will be more applicants who are women and more successful female applicants.

 

I think it is important to speak towards gender neutrality, but as previously mentioned, that isn’t something which our society currently experiences. I really don’t think there is a significant enough gap between genders to be pointing fingers anywhere.

 

Best of luck to all you for this upcoming year.

 

P.s. Might I say, as a straight male applicant, I wouldn’t mind being surrounded by brilliant beautiful women on a regular basis.

[aaronjw]

Women do a disproportionate amount of unpaid work. If women weren't assumed childcarers, cooks, and cleaners at home, the distribution of paid work, including as medical practitioners, would be more equal. Again, challenging gender essentialism would help address this issue. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-630-x/2008001/article/10705-eng.pdf

 

That has zero bearing on the statistics which are: women physicians are increasing (yay) but because they do work less than male physicians, there is less total devoted to patient care in the system (boo)

 

What you speak of has more of a bearing on women who are not physicians and who aren't afforded the luxury to call their own schedules. THOSE are the women we should be creating more equality for, not the poor hard done by doctor who can work part time and still make $150K/yr so lets throw out the sensationalism and think objectively by focusing on things that truly matter.

[Hockeynut]

Personally i don't care about gender. They should eliminate, if any, quotas for females and just except the top applicants regardless of gender be it female or males. When a system plays favorites society loses. (ie; our economy, medical system in general)

[thehumanmacbook]

That has zero bearing on the statistics which are: women physicians are increasing (yay) but because they do work less than male physicians, there is less total devoted to patient care in the system (boo)

 

What you speak of has more of a bearing on women who are not physicians and who aren't afforded the luxury to call their own schedules. THOSE are the women we should be creating more equality for, not the poor hard done by doctor who can work part time and still make $150K/yr so lets throw out the sensationalism and think objectively by focusing on things that truly matter.

 

To add to Aaron's post:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422491

 

http://www.canada.com/news/Female+doctors+hurt+productivity+Report/1612978/story.html

 

But someone might remark that these studies were probably performed and funded by misogynistic hatred.

[aaronjw]

Personally i don't care about gender. They should eliminate, if any, quotas for females and just except the top applicants regardless of gender be it female or males. When a system plays favorites society loses. (ie; our economy, medical system in general)

 

I disagree. Not everyone has the same start in life. If it wasn't for the fact I was very good at playing a sport I never would have received an education in the first place because even with student loans I could have never afforded it and no family support to help out.

 

Affirmative action allows those who have been kicked down and kept down an opportunity to stand up, and over time, there will be less need for affirmative action policies.

 

And no offence, I've returned back to the economy FAR MORE than any amount of privilege I was afforded in the first place.

[inthesticks]

[trojjanhorse]

trojjanhorse, do you understand the implications of your post? I want to believe that you posted this with the best intentions, but as a fellow premed applicant - and someone who completed casper - I find it very difficult to believe that you accidentally forgot how much more privileged men are in our society over women.

 

You immediately thought that being a male applicant was some how disadvantageous, NOT that perhaps more women were applying or were more competitive, NOT that sex is favoured. This strikes me as quite odd.

 

And again, as someone who has completed McMaster, I would think that you are aware of the barriers in place to women in science? To becoming a physician? I have female friends who are still told by professors that they cannot be a doctor because "girls are afraid of blood". Honestly, this post of yours trivializes actual barriers that women face.

 

How do you think Mac assessors would view you if they saw that you posted this?

 

Wow, never expected this to go viral.

 

It was posted with the best intentions. With the intention of extrapolating info from data. I apologize if you took it so harshly, but I'm not apologizing for opening this thread or sharing this data I put forward. I was under the impression that I could have a constructive discussion.

 

As to your question: How do I think Mac assessors would view me if they saw this post?

 

1st. Ask yourself the same question. They will see someone who clearly takes things out of proportions. Someone who clearly doesn't preface their answers carefully before expressing their opinion. Someone who points fingers at someone for simply SHOWING DATA.

 

2nd. I really don't mind if Mac assessors knew who I really was (identity) and that I opened this thread. We live in a world where many are cacooned with the threat of being called a sexist or a racist. It's this threat alone that restricts the same individuals from expressing their true opinion and promoting transparency. I had a similar discussion with a McMaster med student on a different thread about the term oriental and how I was racist for using that term in context... He/she even replied back by saying how he/she corrected a physician who he/she was shadowing at the time and it was well received... Well received? Of course it will be well received. That physician doesn't want to be labeled as a racist so of course he will receive your comment well. Certainly there are exceptions to this.

 

3rd. I want to be accepted for who I am, and not who I conform into or to.

 

I must say, I'm glad this thread went viral. I've learned a lot and I like seeing peers discussing such topics (despite going on a HUGE tangent). I just hope I can have these discussions with my future classmates without the fear of being labeled a sexist and a racist I truly admire individuals like BAMFtastic and aaronjw because they are rarely hesitant on exposing the elephant in the room and nor are they hesitant in expressing their opinions in a healthy discussion.

 

In conclusion, I love compiling stats and coding. I like sitting back and thinking of how these stats came to be and what they could mean and ultimately, how can we benefit from stats. It's for this reason I took a minor in physics and statistics on top of my biology degree.

[aaronjw]

 

3rd. I want to be accepted for who I am, and not who I conform into or to.

 

I must say, I'm glad this thread went viral. I've learned a lot and I like seeing peers discussing such topics (despite going on a HUGE tangent). I just hope I can have these discussions with my future classmates without the fear of being labeled a sexist and a racist

 

WAY too much political correctness in this world and most of it centres around people paying attention to sticking points of what a person said/wrote while internalizing it (based on their own cognitive biases) instead of objective comprehension which can lead to honest to goodness discussion and learning.

 

way too much noise disruption (for anyone interested in communication theories)

[silvantes]

Wow, never expected this to go viral.

 

It was posted with the best intentions. With the intention of extrapolating info from data. I apologize if you took it so harshly, but I'm not apologizing for opening this thread or sharing this data I put forward. I was under the impression that I could have a constructive discussion.

 

As to your question: How do I think Mac assessors would view me if they saw this post?

 

1st. Ask yourself the same question. They will see someone who clearly takes things out of proportions. Someone who clearly doesn't preface their answers carefully before expressing their opinion. Someone who points fingers at someone for simply SHOWING DATA.

 

2nd. I really don't mind if Mac assessors knew who I really was (identity) and that I opened this thread. We live in a world where many are cacooned with the threat of being called a sexist or a racist. It's this threat alone that restricts the same individuals from expressing their true opinion and promoting transparency. I had a similar discussion with a McMaster med student on a different thread about the term oriental and how I was racist for using that term in context... He/she even replied back by saying how he/she corrected a physician who he/she was shadowing at the time and it was well received... Well received? Of course it will be well received. That physician doesn't want to be labeled as a racist so of course he will receive your comment well. Certainly there are exceptions to this.

 

3rd. I want to be accepted for who I am, and not who I conform into or to.

 

I must say, I'm glad this thread went viral. I've learned a lot and I like seeing peers discussing such topics (despite going on a HUGE tangent). I just hope I can have these discussions with my future classmates without the fear of being labeled a sexist and a racist I truly admire individuals like BAMFtastic and aaronjw because they are rarely hesitant on exposing the elephant in the room and nor are they hesitant in expressing their opinions in a healthy discussion.

 

In conclusion, I love compiling stats and coding. I like sitting back and thinking of how these stats came to be and what they could mean and ultimately, how can we benefit from stats. It's for this reason I took a minor in physics and statistics on top of my biology degree.

 

I agree with you trojjanhorse, people blow things up way too much and are sometimes far too sensitive, it is what it is. I cannot believe someone would say you're sexist, it was just a post talking about the stats, it is interesting to analyze why, it in no way means you're a sexist...

[souljaboy]

This thread:

 

[Lunasly]

Wow, never expected this to go viral.

 

It was posted with the best intentions. With the intention of extrapolating info from data. I apologize if you took it so harshly, but I'm not apologizing for opening this thread or sharing this data I put forward. I was under the impression that I could have a constructive discussion.

 

As to your question: How do I think Mac assessors would view me if they saw this post?

 

1st. Ask yourself the same question. They will see someone who clearly takes things out of proportions. Someone who clearly doesn't preface their answers carefully before expressing their opinion. Someone who points fingers at someone for simply SHOWING DATA.

 

2nd. I really don't mind if Mac assessors knew who I really was (identity) and that I opened this thread. We live in a world where many are cacooned with the threat of being called a sexist or a racist. It's this threat alone that restricts the same individuals from expressing their true opinion and promoting transparency. I had a similar discussion with a McMaster med student on a different thread about the term oriental and how I was racist for using that term in context... He/she even replied back by saying how he/she corrected a physician who he/she was shadowing at the time and it was well received... Well received? Of course it will be well received. That physician doesn't want to be labeled as a racist so of course he will receive your comment well. Certainly there are exceptions to this.

 

3rd. I want to be accepted for who I am, and not who I conform into or to.

 

I must say, I'm glad this thread went viral. I've learned a lot and I like seeing peers discussing such topics (despite going on a HUGE tangent). I just hope I can have these discussions with my future classmates without the fear of being labeled a sexist and a racist I truly admire individuals like BAMFtastic and aaronjw because they are rarely hesitant on exposing the elephant in the room and nor are they hesitant in expressing their opinions in a healthy discussion.

 

In conclusion, I love compiling stats and coding. I like sitting back and thinking of how these stats came to be and what they could mean and ultimately, how can we benefit from stats. It's for this reason I took a minor in physics and statistics on top of my biology degree.

 

Weak sauce, man.

[trojjanhorse]

Weak sauce, man.

 

lol i guess I too am restricted with a political corrected leash.

[Hockeynut]

I disagree. Not everyone has the same start in life. If it wasn't for the fact I was very good at playing a sport I never would have received an education in the first place because even with student loans I could have never afforded it and no family support to help out.

 

Affirmative action allows those who have been kicked down and kept down an opportunity to stand up, and over time, there will be less need for affirmative action policies.

 

And no offence, I've returned back to the economy FAR MORE than any amount of privilege I was afforded in the first place.

I absolutely disagree with you. I have no financial support and through hard work of my own I have managed to pay for my undergrad without the need for loans. The fact that you are not" privileged" is not an excuse. I've had to do many jobs that many of my classmates laugh at but I've had to do what I've had to do to get by, combine that with some investment savvy and as I said I'll be debt free after undergrad.

The fact remains that the best applicants aren't always the ones selected. Is this not disadvantaging another population of applicants?

[ralk]

WAY too much political correctness in this world and most of it centres around people paying attention to sticking points of what a person said/wrote while internalizing it (based on their own cognitive biases) instead of objective comprehension which can lead to honest to goodness discussion and learning.

 

way too much noise disruption (for anyone interested in communication theories)

 

Heh, this discussion made me think of this comic - http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2164

 

I agree, especially in cases like this, starting off with cries of sexism (or racism) can close us off to meaningful debates.

 

That said, the pendulum can swing too far the other way. There are certain terms or phrases which offend some individuals, even if they are not intended to be offensive. If you're talking to someone who you know could be offended by such a phrase, or a phrase is widely view as causing some people to be offended, and you have ways of expressing your viewpoint without using those terms, why not do it? To use trojan's example, I do know some people who would object to being referred to as oriental, despite it being an accurate description - they would prefer the term East Asian or simply Asian. Using that term doesn't mean someone's racist, but not using it doesn't mean someone's conforming either - it means they're being respectful of others.

 

I mean, it's the difference between, when needing get by someone in the street, of saying "Excuse me, would you mind if I stepped past you" and saying "Get out of my way". Both convey the same point, but one is much more likely to get a reasonable response. To me, that's not political correctness, that's just being polite.

[trojjanhorse]

Heh, this discussion made me think of this comic - http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2164

 

I agree, especially in cases like this, starting off with cries of sexism (or racism) can close us off to meaningful debates.

 

That said, the pendulum can swing too far the other way. There are certain terms or phrases which offend some individuals, even if they are not intended to be offensive. If you're talking to someone who you know could be offended by such a phrase, or a phrase is widely view as causing some people to be offended, and you have ways of expressing your viewpoint without using those terms, why not do it? To use trojan's example, I do know some people who would object to being referred to as oriental, despite it being an accurate description - they would prefer the term East Asian or simply Asian. Using that term doesn't mean someone's racist, but not using it doesn't mean someone's conforming either - it means they're being respectful of others.

 

I mean, it's the difference between, when needing get by someone in the street, of saying "Excuse me, would you mind if I stepped past you" and saying "Get out of my way". Both convey the same point, but one is much more likely to get a reasonable response. To me, that's not political correctness, that's just being polite.

 

Nicely put. It's hard to reject that view (and I agree with you btw). On the same token, I believe that this approach of labeling words as racist/sexist is infectious.

 

Let's create an example: You meet a peer and you use the term oriental. He says that it's offensive and racist. You apologize and not use it in front of him anymore. Now you're in constant state of alarm of not using that word because you feel everyone of that background will be offended. Soon you remove that term entirely from your vocabulary. This will be noticed and other ASIANs will notice this and claim it is racist too simply because it's in the air.

 

I learned of this phenomenon in psychology class in undergrad... I forgot the proper term... It's when your friend tells you something and you don't really agree with and later, you end up quoting their words with someone else because you forgot where it came from and you believe it because you recognize it.

 

NOTE: I hope everyone in this thread is not offended. As I previously mentioned, I like these discussions not because I like pressuring or pressing on others, but because these are the topics that people stay away from with a 10 foot pole and it's nice to see many participate.

[ralk]

Nicely put. It's hard to reject that view (and I agree with you btw). On the same token, I believe that this approach of labeling words as racist/sexist is infectious.

 

Let's create an example: You meet a peer and you use the term oriental. He says that it's offensive and racist. You apologize and not use it in front of him anymore. Now you're in constant state of alarm of not using that word because you feel everyone of that background will be offended. Soon you remove that term entirely from your vocabulary. This will be noticed and other ASIANs will notice this and claim it is racist too simply because it's in the air.

 

I learned of this phenomenon in psychology class in undergrad... I forgot the proper term... It's when your friend tells you something and you don't really agree with and later, you end up quoting their words with someone else because you forgot where it came from and you believe it because you recognize it.

 

NOTE: I hope everyone in this thread is not offended. As I previously mentioned, I like these discussions not because I like pressuring or pressing on others, but because these are the topics that people stay away from with a 10 foot pole and it's nice to see many participate.

 

You're absolutely right, there are longer-term or broader implications to that form of self-censorship. Avoiding the use of a phrase can perpetuate into never using that phrase, which isn't necessarily a healthy thing for our discourse.

 

I really don't have a good answer to that point... my gut reaction is to simply say that time heals all wounds and that language is constantly evolving. Eventually the factors that made a term offensive will cease to be relevant to the vast majority of people to those would could be reasonably offended by it - at that point, hopefully we can use such terms without unintentionally eliciting such emotion. Otherwise, I suppose words drop out of use frequently, only to be replaced by others - maybe this is just a natural part of the process?