Accepted into dentistry school in Australia...undecided, need some advice.

[CS13]

I have been accepted at Griffith University in Australia, it is a 5 year program (you do not need your bachelors degree to apply). However, I have a large amount of their first year courses credited from my undergrad studies at OttawaU, so it will likely be closer to four years for me and it is still part of the Canada/Australia reciprocal agreement.

 

The program starts in February 2014, and I need to accept within the week. I have wanted to be a dentist since I was about 10 years old. But recently this summer I came to the conclusion that I wanted to be a dentist for all the wrong reasons (ie. secure job, awesome pay, the title of a doctor) and that I was no longer going to pursue it because there was no real passion there. So I didn't write my DATs, and I am not applying to any schools in Canada or the states. I had applied to this program before this realization as you didn't need your DAT or a bachelor, etc. So thought I would apply just to see if I would get in based on my GPA (they require a 6.5 on a 7.0 scale-Australian GPA scale) and they include ALL your university courses in the calculation even though undergrad is not a prereq.

 

So now that my acceptance of the offer is due in a week, I am second guessing myself and starting to feel like maybe I should accept the offer and pursue dentistry.

 

I am NOT planning on writing my DATs or applying to any schools in Canada or the states because I actually want to live in Australia regardless.....I am just very confused and know that if I close this door now I will never open it again. So I feel like I am making a huge life decision and just keep second guessing myself.....I have shadowed a dentist for a couple months, but I still don't even think shadowing gives you that much insight into the career. So I guess what I'm asking is, what do you guys think I should do and why do you all HONESTLY want to be dentists?

[Ostracized]

I had to look up that university because I've never even heard of it. I guess the dental school is new. It seems that you'll be paying about $300,000 in tuition over the course of 5 years, plus living expenses and interest makes this an expensive decision for someone who is unsure. I've commented in past threads about my concern about taking on this kind of heavy debt for any dental student - even those who are passionate about the profession.

 

I like being a dentist, but it's definitely not for everyone. With a high student debt you'll be kind of stuck working as a dentist for probably 10-15 years in order to pay it off.

 

Geographically, where do you plan to work after graduation? Also, what is your anticipated income after graduation?

[Orcamute]

Quite an opportunity you have been given here my friend.

 

Its all about perspective. I would go for it, your passion will build the more you see the impact you are creating in society. Trust.

[raydeezy]

I have been accepted at Griffith University in Australia, it is a 5 year program (you do not need your bachelors degree to apply). However, I have a large amount of their first year courses credited from my undergrad studies at OttawaU, so it will likely be closer to four years for me and it is still part of the Canada/Australia reciprocal agreement.

 

The program starts in February 2014, and I need to accept within the week. I have wanted to be a dentist since I was about 10 years old. But recently this summer I came to the conclusion that I wanted to be a dentist for all the wrong reasons (ie. secure job, awesome pay, the title of a doctor) and that I was no longer going to pursue it because there was no real passion there. So I didn't write my DATs, and I am not applying to any schools in Canada or the states. I had applied to this program before this realization as you didn't need your DAT or a bachelor, etc. So thought I would apply just to see if I would get in based on my GPA (they require a 6.5 on a 7.0 scale-Australian GPA scale) and they include ALL your university courses in the calculation even though undergrad is not a prereq.

 

So now that my acceptance of the offer is due in a week, I am second guessing myself and starting to feel like maybe I should accept the offer and pursue dentistry.

 

I am NOT planning on writing my DATs or applying to any schools in Canada or the states because I actually want to live in Australia regardless.....I am just very confused and know that if I close this door now I will never open it again. So I feel like I am making a huge life decision and just keep second guessing myself.....I have shadowed a dentist for a couple months, but I still don't even think shadowing gives you that much insight into the career. So I guess what I'm asking is, what do you guys think I should do and why do you all HONESTLY want to be dentists?

 

 

Hey, so I also got into Griffith University. I just started my second year of undergrad and I applied to Griffith after finding out about the accreditation agreement between Canada and Australia. My cumulative GPA is 3.90 for my first year and my grade 12 top six was 97%. May I ask what your GPA is? I just want to know if the Griffith program is competitive.

 

Also anyone else reading this, I haven't written my DAT yet but I was wondering if I should say no to Griffith and try and get in a US dental school? It's pretty much the same tuition though and by going to Griffith's 5 year program now I could save myself 1.5 years. Only thing is it's not a DDS but it's considered equivalent under the accreditation agreement which means I can come back and write the NDEB without taking a 2-year qualifying program. The only benefit I see about the US is options to specialize but then I have to write the DAT, get reference letters, and do interviews. Also I don't want to say no to Griffith and regret it later if I can't get in anywhere.

[mrewmrew]

Hey, so I also got into Griffith University. I just started my second year of undergrad and I applied to Griffith after finding out about the accreditation agreement between Canada and Australia. My cumulative GPA is 3.90 for my first year and my grade 12 top six was 97%. May I ask what your GPA is? I just want to know if the Griffith program is competitive.

 

Also anyone else reading this, I haven't written my DAT yet but I was wondering if I should say no to Griffith and try and get in a US dental school? It's pretty much the same tuition though and by going to Griffith's 5 year program now I could save myself 1.5 years. Only thing is it's not a DDS but it's considered equivalent under the accreditation agreement which means I can come back and write the NDEB without taking a 2-year qualifying program. The only benefit I see about the US is options to specialize but then I have to write the DAT, get reference letters, and do interviews. Also I don't want to say no to Griffith and regret it later if I can't get in anywhere.

 

I think your situation is slightly different from the OP in the sense that the OP actually plans to practice in Australia. This is just copy pasted from what I wrote in a previous thread regarding Aus vs US. (non of this really applies to OP since he/she doesn't want to come back)

 

Aus

 

-more expensive (same tuition, way higher living costs)

-chances of specializing approaches 0

-other side of the world (which may be good or bad depending on the person)

-very possible disadvantage when applying for associateships (discussed in detail in another thread)

-degree not recognized in the States, cannot work there without qualifying program

 

US

-way lower cost of living

-very decent specialization rates given you do well on your boards/other exams

-right next to Canada

-less of a disadvantage when applying to associateships in Canada, no disadvantage if you apply for jobs in the States

-degree recognized in the States, you can work there after if you like just by passing one exam

 

The reason why I think there will be a disadvantage when AUS grads apply to associateships in Canada (which is the only place they can really work if they don't stay in Australia) is because the dentists hiring you as an associate are taking a personal financial risk. It's not like medicine where the program director takes you in as an IMG at no personal cost to himself (government pays the residents). When a dentist hires you as an associate, he/she does it with the hopes that the practice will move forward. The practice's reputation is at risk, as well as profit margins.

 

Picture yourself as a clinic owner looking for a new associate. Why exactly would you hire an AUS grad over a Canadian grad? Clinic owners are certainly not stupid and they are not ignorant to the fact that in 99% of the cases Canadians only shell out 300k and go to Australia if they are not competitive enough to make it into a Canadian school. Similarly, they know that Canadian dental schools are filled with the top students from undergrad. In fact, it's not far of a stretch to say that they may even harbour implicit resentment against Aus grads for "saturating the market". Even though both AUS grads and CAN grads are politically equal and are both fully qualified dentists in Canada (not USA), from a personal point of view it would be extremely hard not to have any bias against AUS grads. So, if you were a clinic owner looking for an associate and you received a bunch of applications from Schulich grads and UofT grads and a few from random Aussie schools, would you even begin to consider the Aus grads? And no, associateships these days are not passed around like candy.

 

So far your marks make you very competitive for basically all US schools and also for Canadian schools. Why go to Australia?

[Ostracized]

If you think you can maintain a 3.9, why not apply to Canadian schools?

[raydeezy]

You hear in the media that there is a shortage of trained medical professionals such as dentists, and that's why these accreditation agreements came to be but after reading through this forum, I've gotten the impression that this "shortage" only applies to rural areas. When I applied to Griffith I thought: "Oh wow I can be a dentist 1.5 years ahead of people here and if there really is a shortage of dentists then as long as I'm licensed to practice (which I would be once I came back) I'll be all set." After reading some threads on the topic though it really does seem like Aus grads are looked down upon even though they are obviously smart/hardworking enough to finish dental school and are seen as equivalent in the eyes of the CDAC. What makes it such a hard decision is that the future is uncertain and dental school is a huge investment. It's very hard to turn my back on this opportunity when there is no certainty as to whether or not I can keep my 3.9 GPA or how I'll do on my DAT/interviews.

 

Also for CS13, you should accept your offer because you can drop out anytime before the semester starts in Feb 2014 and get all your deposit back minus a small fee. I accepted just to get my seat and now I have until Feb to decide at least. You can tell I'm undecided because I actually just registered for second semester courses here at my university in Canada just in case lol.

[Ostracized]

You hear in the media that there is a shortage of trained medical professionals such as dentists, and that's why these accreditation agreements came to be but after reading through this forum, I've gotten the impression that this "shortage" only applies to rural areas.

 

I'm not sure where you plan on working, but in Ontario there are no longer any populated areas with dentist shortages. Even remote areas are now adequately serviced. This is according to ODA president Rick Caldwell.

[DDS2017]

I'm not sure where you plan on working, but in Ontario there are no longer any populated areas with dentist shortages. Even remote areas are now adequately serviced. This is according to ODA president Rick Caldwell.

 

Do you know if ODA or CDA will do something about the reciprocal agreement issue anytime soon?

 

Saturation cannot be good for any working dentists

[z3u2]

 

Picture yourself as a clinic owner looking for a new associate. Why exactly would you hire an AUS grad over a Canadian grad? Clinic owners are certainly not stupid and they are not ignorant to the fact that in 99% of the cases Canadians only shell out 300k and go to Australia if they are not competitive enough to make it into a Canadian school. Similarly, they know that Canadian dental schools are filled with the top students from undergrad.

 

This is a very naive and ignorant thought. You are way too young and think school is everything. Wait until you become a dentist for a few years, then you realize which school doesn't matter that much anymore.

In fact, even if you aren't in dentistry in the future, in most field, people don't care as much where you had your degree. Your experience, your skill set, your personality and your ethic all supersede which (dental) school you were from.

[mrewmrew]

This is a very naive and ignorant thought. You are way too young and think school is everything. Wait until you become a dentist for a few years, then you realize which school doesn't matter that much anymore.

In fact, even if you aren't in dentistry in the future, in most field, people don't care as much where you had your degree. Your experience, your skill set, your personality and your ethic all supersede which (dental) school you were from.

 

This may be true for the general public who for the most part is not aware of any of this. Of course your experience, personality, ethics matters. But as a new grad you have no experience. Can you honestly say if you were a clinic owner looking for a new associate you wont be biased at all against AUS grads? When you could easily hire a student from uoft, uwo, mcgill, ubc?

 

Ill use IMGs in medicine as an example. Sure ireland grads are qualified, so are carib grads. Give them 10 years and practice and you probably can't tell the difference between them and a US/Can grad. However, they are not seen on equal footing as canadian or american grads for carms and the US residency match. Why would it be any different for dent? This bias should be amplified since clinic owners are taking a personal risk hiring an associate. The ADA doesnt see Aus grads as equal to canadian and american grads. CDA does. Would you ve comfortable hiring someone whos education is only recognized by the CDA and not the ADA when you can easily play it safe and hire a canadian grad?

[cookiemonster99]

This may be true for the general public who for the most part is not aware of any of this. Of course your experience, personality, ethics matters. But as a new grad you have no experience. Can you honestly say if you were a clinic owner looking for a new associate you wont be biased at all against AUS grads? When you could easily hire a student from uoft, uwo, mcgill, ubc?

 

stop thinking that canadian schools are the "best" schools out there

there is NOTHING wrong with aussie schools. In fact Melbourne or Sydney is ranked to be very high in terms of educational standards.

 

This is a matter of YOUR opinion. YOU ARE BIASED because you grew up in Canada thinking that CANADA is the best. You have to wake up and see that there are a lot of universities out there that are just as good if not better than Canadian dental schools. You think at University of Sydney you won't get just as good of an education as if you went to UofT for dentistry or UWO for dentistry?

[mrewmrew]

stop thinking that canadian schools are the "best" schools out there

there is NOTHING wrong with aussie schools. In fact Melbourne or Sydney is ranked to be very high in terms of educational standards.

 

This is a matter of YOUR opinion. YOU ARE BIASED because you grew up in Canada thinking that CANADA is the best. You have to wake up and see that there are a lot of universities out there that are just as good if not better than Canadian dental schools. You think at University of Sydney you won't get just as good of an education as if you went to UofT for dentistry or UWO for dentistry?

 

No I dont, and neither does ADA. Do you? I never said Canadian schools are the best. I said they take the top students. The ivys are probably offer more opportunities if you shell out the cash.

[cookiemonster99]

This may be true for the general public who for the most part is not aware of any of this. Of course your experience, personality, ethics matters. But as a new grad you have no experience. Can you honestly say if you were a clinic owner looking for a new associate you wont be biased at all against AUS grads? When you could easily hire a student from uoft, uwo, mcgill, ubc?

 

Ill use IMGs in medicine as an example. Sure ireland grads are qualified, so are carib grads. Give them 10 years and practice and you probably can't tell the difference between them and a US/Can grad. However, they are not seen on equal footing as canadian or american grads for carms and the US residency match. Why would it be any different for dent? This bias should be amplified since clinic owners are taking a personal risk hiring an associate. The ADA doesnt see Aus grads as equal to canadian and american grads. CDA does. Would you ve comfortable hiring someone whos education is only recognized by the CDA and not the ADA when you can easily play it safe and hire a canadian grad?

 

Let's get something straight.

Medicine and dentistry is COMPLETELY different in terms of residency, recognition, and practice so you can't compare them.

It's like comparing apple and oranges.

Your statement about them not being equal in the matches: There is a reason as to why they do that for medicine, sure they didn't receive their education in Canada or the US you're saying they aren't as "good" doctors. However, there is an agreement between Canada and Australia to recognize grads as the same.

Did they do that for medicine for australia? No. There is a reason they have this agreement. It's because the CDA thinks that the level of education that Australian dental schools give is EQUAL to the education that Canada gives.

 

You are saying that Aussie grads aren't as "good" as Canadian simply because they aren't recognized by the ADA. Well, you did know that you are allowed to become a dental specialist by graduating from a foreign school too right? And allow to apply to dental speciality programs in the US as a foreign student. I know I already gave an example from a previous thread that as a US dental school's ortho program 1/4 of the student DID NOT graduate from an American or Canadian dental school. Are you saying they aren't as "qualified"? or just as good to be specialists? I believe some of the are from Sinagpore

 

To answer your question about hiring someone that isn't recognized by ADA and is by CDA. The US has A LOT more dental schools than Canada so in essence they can provide the dental care for themselves. Adding our dental school will not change them much because a lot of dental student settle in Canada anyways. So the impact isn't big at all. As for Canada, we simply don't have enough seats to accept a lot of students and it's all because of $$$$$$$. The current dentist market want to keep their salary level and limit the amount of grads that come out of dental schools so a supply is low. This is basic economics, low supply high demand= high price. Also there simply isn't enough money to fund the resources to get more seats in Canada's dental school. Those are the 2 main reasons.

[DDS2017]

Hey cookiemonster99, are you in Australian dental school right now?

 

If so, do you plan on coming back to Canada to practice dentistry?

[TheBoss]

Did they do that for medicine for australia? No. There is a reason they have this agreement. It's because the CDA thinks that the level of education that Australian dental schools give is EQUAL to the education that Canada gives.

 

Ok, sure, let's ignore all the politics and other brouhaha, and pretend that the perceived quality of the medical or dental education is the only consideration that affects whether or not foreign grads are recognized in Canada. I can tell you that quality of education is not the reason why a TCD med grad is an IMG in CaRMS, but a grad from a low quality US med school is not.

 

Further, the quality of the education was not really the point of distinction to begin with. Rather, as said before, it is the quality of the students going in. Canadians who go to AUS dent schools probably, on average, couldn't cut it or didn't they they could cut it in Canadian dent school admissions, and hence won't be as good on average. When it comes to students who do specialty training in the US, probably most of the students from foreign dent schools had foreign origins, rather than simply not cutting it in domestic admissions. Or, at least, they proved themselves by excelling above their peers while in dent school.

[advair250]

Ok, sure, let's ignore all the politics and other brouhaha, and pretend that the perceived quality of the medical or dental education is the only consideration that affects whether or not foreign grads are recognized in Canada. I can tell you that quality of education is not the reason why a TCD med grad is an IMG in CaRMS, but a grad from a low quality US med school is not.

 

Further, the quality of the education was not really the point of distinction to begin with. Rather, as said before, it is the quality of the students going in. Canadians who go to AUS dent schools probably, on average, couldn't cut it or didn't they they could cut it in Canadian dent school admissions, and hence won't be as good on average. When it comes to students who do specialty training in the US, probably most of the students from foreign dent schools had foreign origins, rather than simply not cutting it in domestic admissions. Or, at least, they proved themselves by excelling above their peers while in dent school.

 

Because there is a significant difference, if any, between someone with an 80% and a 84%? Undergrad grades after a certain point, don't mean squat.

[TheBoss]

Because there is a significant difference, if any, between someone with an 80% and a 84%? Undergrad grades after a certain point, don't mean squat.

 

Twisting the argument, wonderful

[z3u2]

Can you honestly say if you were a clinic owner looking for a new associate you wont be biased at all against AUS grads? When you could easily hire a student from uoft, uwo, mcgill, ubc?

 

Would you ve comfortable hiring someone whos education is only recognized by the CDA and not the ADA when you can easily play it safe and hire a canadian grad?

 

There will always be bias, and all sorts of possible biases. Bias against gender; you don't want a female associate who could be on maternity leave. Bias against experience; you don't want an associate with NO experience or less than two-year experience. Or you don't want an associate with 20+ years of experience because you are afraid you can't manage them as their boss. Bias against race/appearance; you don't want an associate who is not presentable in front of the patients and hence drives patients away. Bias against education, yes, you may want an associate that only comes from schools which you think are "honorable".

 

The point is, there is a lot of things to worry. You are focusing on school/grades/gpa way too much, some of the thoughts on your AU/US list you kept on saying is ridiculous and laughable.

 

The the OP, I'm sorry that people have derailed the topic away. I think no one can help you making the decision other than yourself, your family, or your close friends. Only you know what you want, and the path is there for you to pick. Think about where you see yourself with work/family in 5 years, in 10 years, and which path leads you there. Pick one which you won't have regret, because you only live once.

[McMarauder]

I wouldn't say the chance of specialising after graduating from an Australian degree is close to 0. I've come to know several demonstrators who graduated from University of Melbourne, and later went on to specialise in the US in periodontics (NYU in particular). Chances are probably lower than those graduating from North American universities due to available connections and what not, but it doesn't mean that the opportunity isn't there. If I'm not mistaken, some american dental schools reserve seats for internationally trained dentists to specialise (whether or not they can practice in the US I'm not sure).

 

As said before, people will probably judge you for going to an Aussie uni (probably not if you work in Australia). People can think what they want, but once you pass the NDEB then you're a licensed dentist. It's kind of like those people who say "oh you only got into a Canadian medical/dental school because you took Basket weaving at Ryerson University". As time passes, no one will care. Undergrad and dental school are very different and success in undergrad isn't perfectly correlated with success in dental school, just like how success in highschool isn't perfectly correlated with success in undergrad. Getting less than a 3.8 GPA in undergrad doesn't mean you're going to be bad at diagnosing caries,and periodontitis. It doesn't mean you're going to be bad at drilling preps for cavities and crowns. It doesn't mean you're going to be bad at building rapport with your patients.

 

OP: I do think Australia for dental school should be a last resort due to the cost and the distance. But you said you want to live in Australia...Why? Have you been here before? I think you should complete undergrad. Dental school is brutal, and perfecting those study habits is benficial.

[cookiemonster99]

Ok, sure, let's ignore all the politics and other brouhaha, and pretend that the perceived quality of the medical or dental education is the only consideration that affects whether or not foreign grads are recognized in Canada. I can tell you that quality of education is not the reason why a TCD med grad is an IMG in CaRMS, but a grad from a low quality US med school is not.

 

Further, the quality of the education was not really the point of distinction to begin with. Rather, as said before, it is the quality of the students going in. Canadians who go to AUS dent schools probably, on average, couldn't cut it or didn't they they could cut it in Canadian dent school admissions, and hence won't be as good on average. When it comes to students who do specialty training in the US, probably most of the students from foreign dent schools had foreign origins, rather than simply not cutting it in domestic admissions. Or, at least, they proved themselves by excelling above their peers while in dent school.

 

There are students that don't get in with the requirements that the dental school is asking for. I had a friend who had a 88% average for UWO and competitive DAT score and interview who was waitlisted but in the end didn't get into Schulich. There really is no difference between 88% and 90%. If you wanna talk GPA ya 0.1 difference but in the end it DOES NOT MATTER.

 

There are A LOT of qualified students that fail to gain a spot in the dental schools every year in Canada and if they do decide to go to Australia you label them as 2nd tier?

 

What about the states? If someone got into the states let's say NYU or Boston but didn't get accepted here will you also say they are 2nd tier? I don't think so.

 

To the OP: I think it's great that you have an acceptance from an Australian dental school. I think the ultimate choice is up to you whether you want to go or not. You have to dig deep down and ask yourself if this is what you want to do and whether you're ready for it.

[Ostracized]

Speaking as a graduate of UofT dentistry, I can say that UofT produces terrible dentists. There are definitely academically easier school that graduate better prepared clinicians.

[cookiemonster99]

Speaking as a graduate of UofT dentistry, I can say that UofT produces terrible dentists. There are definitely academically easier school that graduate better prepared clinicians.

 

LOOL

 

10char

[raydeezy]

So I was wondering why Australia has both 4 year DDS/DMD AND 5 year Bachelor of Dental Science, etc. They are all accredited. The DDS/DMD program in Australia does seem more research based though (probably required to label it as a post-graduate program?). Why would Australian students do a DDS (need to finish undergrad first) when they could go straight from high school to a 5 year Dentistry program and still be qualified as a general dentist same as DDS? Just a little confused about that.

[evon]

So I was wondering why Australia has both 4 year DDS/DMD AND 5 year Bachelor of Dental Science, etc. They are all accredited. The DDS/DMD program in Australia does seem more research based though (probably required to label it as a post-graduate program?). Why would Australian students do a DDS (need to finish undergrad first) when they could go straight from high school to a 5 year Dentistry program and still be qualified as a general dentist same as DDS? Just a little confused about that.

 

Well, some Australian universities only recently switched post-graduate level dentistry degrees (DDS/DMD), before that they were all Bachelors level ( you could apply right after high school). I guess universities such as Melbourne & Sydney switched to post-graduate level courses because they wanted to be similar to North American system and also attract North American students. Other schools in my opinion will also end up switching to post-grad level soon. But the important thing is even with the Bachelors of Dentistry from Australia you can practice in both Australia and in Canada. All dentistry programs that are accredited in Australia are also accredited in Canada, there are no exceptions