Medical school enrollment is too high

[Hockeynut]

+1

 

This is extremely important and I'm very happy to see most medical schools acknowledge this (eg best/last 2 years policies, dropped lowest marks policies, differential weighing of higher years etc)

 

It's funny that Law schools have been using this for a while, but many starting this cycle, have adopted a cGPA dominant evaluation criteria. (UofT, Osgoode and Ottawa to name a few) Just as a contrast of another system that relies on GPA, standardized tests and EC's.

 

In the end there is no perfect system.

[futureGP]

+1 to above.

 

I also notice a funny trend around PM101 sometimes to lean into this rhetoric of grades somehow being the primary indicator of intelligence, and that life sciences are somehow the only important parts of being a doc. Perhaps in some specialties.

 

I am very much looking forward to MCATs testing for more interdisciplinary knowledge like psych, soc, history, etc. Physicians by nature must be interdisciplinary, flexible, and able to integrate vast areas of knowledge.

 

There are too many "pre-meds" I've personally met that I am very concerned (read: scared poopless) will get in. No social life, no ability to communicate, no self-confidence, no direction in life, no maturity, no ethics, no life philosophy, no broad appreciation for other fields or peers that exist besides them, no leadership... But they have a 4.0 because they stay at home and study. Scary.

 

I doubt the change in MCAT which includes psych/soc/history will make any difference.

 

Plus, you don't have to worry about those "pre-meds" getting in because more so than not they get weeded out during the interview process (MMI or not) and the typical MD class is pretty outgoing and purposeful (Save a few).

 

 

You don't need to use the Harvard argument. I was invited to interview there, along with 4 other top 10 schools South of the border two years ago. I was also accepted to a Top 20 Ivy school.

 

I got an interview not only because of my academic stats. I am also accomplished at the time in other areas of academic and social endeavors enough for Harvard to take notice of me.

 

 

Now, I am by no means advocating for academic intelligence as the pure marker for medical school admission. However, I am advocating for selecting people with higher academic standard and THEN selecting those with life experiences and extra-curricular accomplishments. In other words, a system of greater academic selectivity to start with and then extracurricular/life experiences selectivity. Selecting a group of students purely based on academic success is bad. This would result in a group of future doctors completely inept in the art of medicine.

 

 

GPA is quite frankly irrelevant in my book. There is just too much variation from school to school where MCAT standardizes everything.

 

I agree with you. There's more than enough applicants for medical schools to set a higher academic standard and select those with comparable life experiences/whatever soft skills.

 

But the issue with many canadian schools is that they are closely tied to the provincial government and politics so that there's a constant pressure for schools to produce physicians who will be beneficial for the province.

IMO this is what prevents medschools from raising standards etc. They want to recruit students who will stay and practice medicine in places where they are needed.

This is why the best advantage any premed applicant have is the in-province status. And this is the reason why academic standards in canadian medical schools are brought down

[polarbear89]

I'm curious in what ways medical schools will heighten their standards as the surplus of physicians continues to grow. I doubt they will cut seats significantly within the next 5 years, but as there are less and less positions for the graduating physicians, they will have to cut back. I wonder if holistic admissions will continue or if the schools will use standardized marks/tests to reduce their pool of applicants.

[Renoir]

I doubt the change in MCAT which includes psych/soc/history will make any difference.

 

Plus, you don't have to worry about those "pre-meds" getting in because more so than not they get weeded out during the interview process (MMI or not) and the typical MD class is pretty outgoing and purposeful (Save a few).

 

Why would AAMC institute the new section in 2015 if it won't make a difference?

 

Some schools "weed out" the candidates I speak of, other less so.

[futureGP]

Why would AAMC institute the new section in 2015 if it won't make a difference?

 

Some schools "weed out" the candidates I speak of, other less so.

 

Because they realized that PS/WS are useless sections.

 

And what schools are those?

[futureGP]

This. Especially for something like the MCAT, where prep courses and practice exams are quite expensive, people from privileged backgrounds have an advantage simply because they can afford (or their parents can) to spend an entire summer studying and doing a prep course, rather than having to study while working full-time like many other students. When you raise the academic requirements to such high levels you end up putting the applicants from lower economic backgrounds at a disadvantage compared to equally intelligent people from wealthier backgrounds.

 

in order for that argument to be correct, you need to prove that prep courses/practice exams actually help you succeed.

 

 

dude

 

you copied my screen name

 

 

 

but i copied future_doc so i guess it's all fair

[Renoir]

Because they realized that PS/WS are useless sections.

 

And what schools are those?

 

So you're suggesting they just wanted to add filler and content that, by what am guessing you're getting at, is likely to be just as useless?

 

UAlberta, UT, UO, are the ones that come to mind. However, I know very little about the eastern schools. I think others here could speak to that better. Ultimately, my point is anecdotal and probably weak. But it remains that I've seen these guys study hard for the MMI and get in over the last few years.

[futureGP]

So you're suggesting they just wanted to add filler and content that, by what am guessing you're getting at, is likely to be just as useless?

 

UAlberta, UT, UO, are the ones that come to mind. However, I know very little about the eastern schools. I think others here could speak to that better. Ultimately, my point is anecdotal and probably weak. But it remains that I've seen these guys study hard for the MMI and get in over the last few years.

 

They have some thought behind adding the social sciences because knowledge-wise it makes sense (knowledge about some determinants of health).

but that's pretty much it. they want you to study it so you know what they're talking about.

 

But like the physical sciences, does knowing about behavioural/social determinants of health help you be a better physician? I am not sure, because theoretically knowing the physical sciences should help you better understand lung/cardiovascular mechanics/radiation science/scientific basis behind diagnostic imaging modalities etc. But they found out that it doesn't matter because eventually if you do end up specializing in fields where it becomes relevant, you'll learn it on your own or during residency.

 

Same thing with social/behavioural. If you end up going into pediatrics/family/psychiatry where these things are important, you'll end up learning about it and studying it on your own.

 

Plus just because you know a lot about social/behavioural determinants of health, it doesn't necessarily mean you are more social or have leadership etc (all the characteristics you talked about). You could still be socially awkward, stay-home immature dude.

 

Which is why I'm saying the new change in MCAT will probably not have any effect on the outcome of whether or not we will select for better physician candidates.

 

All it probably does is to prepare the potential physician candidates, who would've been a great candidate anyways prior to the change, an early start on learning about the non-biological determinants of health.

[simvastatin]

You don't need to use the Harvard argument. I was invited to interview there, along with 4 other top 10 schools South of the border two years ago. I was also accepted to a Top 20 Ivy school.

However, I am advocating for selecting people with higher academic standard and THEN selecting those with life experiences and extra-curricular accomplishments.

GPA is quite frankly irrelevant in my book.

 

1. I don't see why you had to say you interviewed at Harvard. Whether or not that's true, that doesn't relate to your "let's cut down on med admissions" argument.

 

2. A GPA/MCAT filter followed by a subsequent EC filter doesn't address the concern on people with extenuating circumstances. What happens in your model is you weed them out from the outset thereby giving them no chance at all.

 

3. GPA is irrelevant? Whatever happened to "I vote for increasing MCAT requirement/average MCAT/GPA to be around 36 and 3.90 above"?

[peace2012]

I have always had a problem with the extremely high medical school admission rate and the socialistic model of admission here in Canada. .

 

One of the major problems Canada is facing right now is that we don't have enough full-time attending/staff positions available for the medical students. I hate to say that we really have too many medical students around who do not really qualify to be here.

 

The average medical school admission rate in Ontario is around 5-10%. While this is low, the problem with this figure is that EVERYONE applies, which artificially lowers the admission rate.

 

When you have a bunch of medical school with mediocre intellectual level (average MCAT= only 33/34), perhaps we should increase the admissions standards.

 

I vote for increasing MCAT requirement/average MCAT/GPA to be around 36 and 3.90 above and cut down admission by 50%.... In doing so, we recruit only the best of the best instead of this socialistic model of admission where even the average (in my view) can get in. Concentration of resources for only the best of the best and career/job planning in matching with residency/infrastructure limitation from the get-go.

 

Verbal-11.2

Physical Science-12.55

Biological Science-12.61

 

The above MCAT was the average MCAT of those that got accepted to Harvard medical school, which is around 36, and their avg GPA was around 3.8. By your standards, all medical students in Canada should be AT LEAST at at the level of an average Harvard medical student. How is 33/34 a "mediocre" intelligent level, you can get into top 10 medical schools in the US with that score. There are some hard working premeds like me who are trying to get in and just because they dont have >36 MCAT, doesnt mean they are bad doctors.

[JohnDakota]

lol.. he posted 2 half assed posts in here and got 4 pages of hate.

 

If he was trying to troll, he wins the interwebs today.

[HycrestJIT]

I have always had a problem with the extremely high medical school admission rate and the socialistic model of admission here in Canada. .

 

One of the major problems Canada is facing right now is that we don't have enough full-time attending/staff positions available for the medical students. I hate to say that we really have too many medical students around who do not really qualify to be here.

 

The average medical school admission rate in Ontario is around 5-10%. While this is low, the problem with this figure is that EVERYONE applies, which artificially lowers the admission rate.

 

When you have a bunch of medical school with mediocre intellectual level (average MCAT= only 33/34), perhaps we should increase the admissions standards.

 

I vote for increasing MCAT requirement/average MCAT/GPA to be around 36 and 3.90 above and cut down admission by 50%.... In doing so, we recruit only the best of the best instead of this socialistic model of admission where even the average (in my view) can get in. Concentration of resources for only the best of the best and career/job planning in matching with residency/infrastructure limitation from the get-go.

 

You're both amazing and insightful. I wish I were as wise as you.

[HycrestJIT]

lol.. he posted 2 half assed posts in here and got 4 pages of hate.

 

If he was trying to troll, he wins the interwebs today.

 

This.

 

10char

[medigeek]

OP, your issue with staff jobs can be fixed by bringing back the general license. We need more family doctors and less specialists.

 

Also, I'm sure GPA/MCAT correlates with pre-clerkship performance, but I doubt there's too much of a correlation between gpa/mcat (I'm talking good/decent GPA vs. super high GPA for example) and actual clinical performance in your career after residency. Intelligence isn't something that can be easily measured like that, nor is intelligence just "one thing" as a whole.

[TheBoss]

2. A GPA/MCAT filter followed by a subsequent EC filter doesn't address the concern on people with extenuating circumstances. What happens in your model is you weed them out from the outset thereby giving them no chance at all.

Giving room for extenuating circumstances is well-justified if it's consistently practiced. See below.

Verbal-11.2

Physical Science-12.55

Biological Science-12.61

 

The above MCAT was the average MCAT of those that got accepted to Harvard medical school, which is around 36, and their avg GPA was around 3.8. By your standards, all medical students in Canada should be AT LEAST at at the level of an average Harvard medical student. How is 33/34 a "mediocre" intelligent level, you can get into top 10 medical schools in the US with that score. There are some hard working premeds like me who are trying to get in and just because they dont have >36 MCAT, doesnt mean they are bad doctors.

Basically every single one of the students who get into HMS with less than stellar stats has other credentials that make them a top candidate. This is sometimes, but also often not the case for students getting into Canadian med schools. An HMS student with say, a 3.4 GPA 32 MCAT will probably have a profile that includes something like one of the following, or a combination to lesser degrees:

-amazing life story i.e. literally came from the ghetto and unbelievable adversity to eventually succeed while working overtime during school to scrape by

-exceptional research i.e. multiple first author pubs, including in e.g. science or nature, PhD, etc

-highly accomplished athlete/artist (e.g. olympic athlete, broadway actor)

-demonstration of strong and effective leadership e.g. started and build up large NGO or business

 

On the other hand, I see students get into canadian med schools with seemingly average or below average accomplishments for a standard premed, and nothing striking about their personalities to boot. In that sense, it seems to become a lot more luck based.

[Mourning Cloak]

Number of unemployed physicians growing

 

What doctor shortage?

 

I predict that med school admissions will be frozen / decreased in the coming years. Applications, however, should remain as they are: a free-for-all. Anyone can apply, and they should. But it's not feasible for schools to interview everyone, so they should also winnow down the crowd to those that they want to interview using whatever criteria they see fit - it's their school, after all.

[holiday1001]

to summarize:

 

a pre-clerk who did very well in undergrad (3.95+ GPA, probably 40+ MCAT) is disappointed to see so many classmates had 'sub-par' GPA yet are in the same position as him/her. the focus and dedication to perfection in academics seems wasted, so he/she comes to lament on premed101.

 

but our medical enrollment really is too high, but not for the reasons OP has posted.

[aaronjw]

OP must be the most popular guy in his class

[ACHQ]

I hate to say that we really have too many medical students around who do not really qualify to be here.

 

Are you referring to people in our (yes our) class? If so could you please give me an example? I really hope you're trolling cause its not hard to figure out who you are...

[NLengr]

 

That's my guess, otherwise the OP sounds like a douchebag.

[Leon]

Are you referring to people in our (yes our) class? If so could you please give me an example? I really hope you're trolling cause its not hard to figure out who you are...

 

hahahahaha classic

[aaronjw]

Are you referring to people in our (yes our) class? If so could you please give me an example? I really hope you're trolling cause its not hard to figure out who you are...

 

this. is. amazing.

 

let's hope OP man's up here otherwise he's just a sack of crap. If you believe what you believe then have the courage of your convictions to remove barrier of anonymity

[uwodesperate]

Are you referring to people in our (yes our) class? If so could you please give me an example? I really hope you're trolling cause its not hard to figure out who you are...

 

LOL.... he said he is asian so that narrow things down even more

[Leon]

this. is. amazing.

 

let's hope OP man's up here otherwise he's just a sack of crap. If you believe what you believe then have the courage of your convictions to remove barrier of anonymity

 

People at my school have already figured out who it is, lol. I don't blame them for being curious since the OP thinks the vast majority of their class shouldn't be there.

[pokemonyellow]

Too radical of a proposition... probably won't work here.....