is this real life...?

[duoduoa]

From Wayne secondary invitation:

 

"Current tuition (2014) for non-residents is $65,346 per year....The total
amount of expenses to attend Wayne State University School of Medicine for one
year is: $86,624 (USD) which includes tuition, fees, and living expenses."

[duoduoa]

how many kidneys should i sell?

[two0nine]

.

[advair250]

US medical schools are expensive, and don't forget currency conversion. What did you expect?

[duoduoa]

US medical schools are expensive, and don't forget currency conversion. What did you expect?

I expected 60k, not 80k

[Sit]

The harsh reality of being 'international' students..

[two0nine]

. 

[rmorelan]

I expected 60k, not 80k

 

as other pointed out factor in currency exchange rates, and often the interest payments on whatever your are using as a loan, plus tools, book, summer living expenses, costs associated with the residency tour etc and the picture looks worse. Often these schools are not in low cost cities. This is not cheap unfortunately - which is why there is such a big push for getting in here.

 

side note - protecting our lower cost system is something we should be aware of. Endless tuition increases even if comparatively lower than the US are still going to become barriers.

[T.A.]

as other pointed out factor in currency exchange rates, and often the interest payments on whatever your are using as a loan, plus tools, book, summer living expenses, costs associated with the residency tour etc and the picture looks worse. Often these schools are not in low cost cities. This is not cheap unfortunately - which is why there is such a big push for getting in here.

 

side note - protecting our lower cost system is something we should be aware of. Endless tuition increases even if comparatively lower than the US are still going to become barriers.

If this is the case and these schools cost so much, is it still a viable and a smart decision to attend them?

Are the rewards from 4-6 years from starting medical school worth this much money?

[MD2B2019]

That's why most Canadian choose study MD in Canada, it's cheaper. But if your cGPA is 3.5+ (OMSAS and/or AMCAS scale verified) and MCAT 30+ and average ECs applied twice in Canada without success, USA is another way to go for some people.

[duoduoa]

That's why most Canadian choose study MD in Canada, it's cheaper. But if your cGPA is 3.5+ (OMSAS and/or AMCAS scale verified) and MCAT 30+ and average ECs applied twice in Canada without success, USA is another way to go for some people.

Not if you live in Ontario where 3.9+ gpa and 35+mcat only gives you a ticket to play the lottery here. Anyways I just told my colleague today that I'm probably dying 5 years early because of all the stress and waiting and bullshit from this year. My life is fucked....

[advair250]

Not if you live in Ontario where 3.9+ gpa and 35+mcat only gives you a ticket to play the lottery here. Anyways I just told my colleague today that I'm probably dying 5 years early because of all the stress and waiting and bullshit from this year. My life is fucked....

Relax.

 

Take a deep breath and realize the long journey ahead. Getting into medical school is just one step, and while it may seem like the hardest step now - it is not. Not even close.

[rmorelan]

If this is the case and these schools cost so much, is it still a viable and a smart decision to attend them?

Are the rewards from 4-6 years from starting medical school worth this much money?

 

well I think in a big sense you have to stretch the timeline out a lot longer than 4-6 years - I mean it is going to take a long time to pay the loans off and they have quite the drag on your residency income as well with the interest payments. A say 350K+ loan at the incredibly low interest rates we have now is about 800+ dollars a month interest a month. US loans often at a higher rate and require co-signers. Your take home pay as a resident is roughly 3K a month initially so roughly 30% of your income is going to pay off the interest (doing a rough budget is a bit scary when you have some hard costs to pay, you don't have a lot of wiggle room ). You have to pay the interest as you likely are topping out the LOCs you have - If you want a specialty other than FM the 5 years plus fellowship(s) time is going to be a bit lean. Once you are staff somewhere this stops being a major issue - people I have talked to describe the problem as not being the debit but rather the cash flow crunch as the big issue. Of course you are also extremely vulnerable to interest rates rising - which will happen. Even going from a 3 to 4 percent LOC rate (4 still being extremely low historically!) results in a 33% increase in your monthly payments. Ouch and what if they rose higher than that?

 

Most people that I know of that went to the US have significant family support to avoid some of these issues and that was the key. Also not all of the US schools are the same in terms of cost and even a 10K a year drop in tuition and living expenses, and some one helping a bit with the interest etc can have a big effect down the line. Also the choice may have an impact on specialty choice for some.

 

Not trying to be too bleak here! This pathway does work of course and ultimately money isn't the issue - it is shorter term cash flow that will keep you up at night. Nothing in medicine is about the short game  

[NLengr]

well I think in a big sense you have to stretch the timeline out a lot longer than 4-6 years - I mean it is going to take a long time to pay the loans off and they have quite the drag on your residency income as well with the interest payments. A say 350K+ loan at the incredibly low interest rates we have now is about 800+ dollars a month interest a month. US loans often at a higher rate and require co-signers. Your take home pay as a resident is roughly 3K a month initially so roughly 30% of your income is going to pay off the interest (doing a rough budget is a bit scary when you have some hard costs to pay, you don't have a lot of wiggle room ). You have to pay the interest as you likely are topping out the LOCs you have - If you want a specialty other than FM the 5 years plus fellowship(s) time is going to be a bit lean. Once you are staff somewhere this stops being a major issue - people I have talked to describe the problem as not being the debit but rather the cash flow crunch as the big issue. Of course you are also extremely vulnerable to interest rates rising - which will happen. Even going from a 3 to 4 percent LOC rate (4 still being extremely low historically!) results in a 33% increase in your monthly payments. Ouch and what if they rose higher than that?

 

Most people that I know of that went to the US have significant family support to avoid some of these issues and that was the key. Also not all of the US schools are the same in terms of cost and even a 10K a year drop in tuition and living expenses, and some one helping a bit with the interest etc can have a big effect down the line. Also the choice may have an impact on specialty choice for some.

 

Not trying to be too bleak here! This pathway does work of course and ultimately money isn't the issue - it is shorter term cash flow that will keep you up at night. Nothing in medicine is about the short game

 

Interest payments will kill you during residency.

 

If we are lucky, the market may be starting to open up a little bit on jobs (a big may right now). If that happens, hopefully the rediculous fellowship requirements for community jobs might start to decrease.

[duoduoa]

800+ interest with a 3k/month salary? I'm actually relieved to hear that. I've lived on similar stipend as a grad student for three years (e.g. with scholarship you can hit 30k per year in Ontario, then minus 8k tuition, and 600 rent per months, I was still able to eat out constantly).

[rmorelan]

800+ interest with a 3k/month salary? I'm actually relieved to hear that. I've lived on similar stipend as a grad student for three years (e.g. with scholarship you can hit 30k per year in Ontario, then minus 8k tuition, and 600 rent per months, I was still able to eat out constantly).

 

for some no problem at all! But if you factor in say a big city with rent at 1500+ easy for an apartment plus utilities (residents as a rule do not rent rooms anymore) that has to be somewhat downtown close and to work, and then 800 in interest and then all the extra fees for a resident - say in first year 600 tuition, 2400 for the MCQEE, 180 for medical insurance a month, 300 for college fees, phone/internet 120+ - add a car in there and factor in insurance etc. Believe me for many it starts to groan under the weight of fixed costs - and it is harder to keep your head above water.  Not impossible but it is a long period of lean spending - grad school is 2 years and grad students are expected to be somewhat frugal. Late twenties, early thirties doctors not so much, and there are often new obligations etc.

 

and remember this is all at insanely low interest rates. They go up 2% (still low) at ANY point between now and the end of residency (say 9 years) and that interest payment jumps by say 50%. That can break people if they are unaware - I do not suggest budgeting at the current rates to be safe. All this as well is just to hold the LOC at bay - no repayment of principle at all.

 

A lot of residents continue to go into debit to fund lifestyle and the saving grace is the tuition rebate credits, and in Ontario the refunds for medical insurance to the tune of 80%. The call is small per shift but can add another 300 a month as well. Plus your salary of course rises over time - I just got the biggest jump of 200 a pay check! Hopefully in Ontario we can get a pay raise in this round of negotiation - considering we haven't had one in 2 years.

[duoduoa]

Relax.

 

Take a deep breath and realize the long journey ahead. Getting into medical school is just one step, and while it may seem like the hardest step now - it is not. Not even close.

lol is that supposed to make me feel better or worse?

[duoduoa]

I hope i can marry a rich woman.

[rmorelan]

lol is that supposed to make me feel better or worse?

 

better there is no get rich quick anything in medicine. The entire process is 15 years give or take from start of premed for the higher paying specialties - assuming you immediately get into medical school, get into residency of choice, get the fellowship of choice, and finally get a staff job somewhere in your field right away - no distractions with grad studies, or maternity or paternity leave etc The entire process "pays off" for people really in their 40s and beyond from a financial point of view. Even as a doctor with a shorter time frame to retirement you have to save a significant fraction of income (people keep throwing around incomes in the 350K area for many fields which is of course great(!) but you will have to save a big chunk of that after taxes to avoid a crashing effect in income when you retire (if taken all as salary (groan) that would be approaching 45% tax, and say 10-15% minimum for retirement (and that many feel that is a bit low) + insurances etc, etc and retraining etc). 

 

Don't get me wrong I think it is more than worth it even if money is a primary focus (although you will probably be bored) but no one will be claiming it is a short pathway.

[DarkGhost]

for some no problem at all! But if you factor in say a big city with rent at 1500+ easy for an apartment plus utilities (residents as a rule do not rent rooms anymore) that has to be somewhat downtown close and to work, and then 800 in interest and then all the extra fees for a resident - say in first year 600 tuition, 2400 for the MCQEE, 180 for medical insurance a month, 300 for college fees, phone/internet 120+ - add a car in there and factor in insurance etc. Believe me for many it starts to groan under the weight of fixed costs - and it is harder to keep your head above water.  Not impossible but it is a long period of lean spending - grad school is 2 years and grad students are expected to be somewhat frugal. Late twenties, early thirties doctors not so much, and there are often new obligations etc.

 

No, no, rmorelan, you don't pay rent, you pay for a gym membership and parkade pass so you can sleep in your car*. 

 

*I meant that as a joke, but the number of times I've actually ended up sleeping in my car makes this seem like a decent plan...

[rmorelan]

No, no, rmorelan, you don't pay rent, you pay for a gym membership and parkade pass so you can sleep in your car*. 

 

*I meant that as a joke, but the number of times I've actually ended up sleeping in my car makes this seem like a decent plan...

 

I remember reading a story about a guy who did that in the US at college and lived out of his van. There was a certain appeal

 

I will always try to make sure the message about the LOC is clear about the CASH FLOW implications. Just ran into another friend with a near maxed LOC who sudden has to correct his lifestyle for the next 3.5 years having finally reach the point where clearly there isn't much choice. The fact that you eventually get a high income is exactly why the LOC is already so high etc so you cannot expect much further mercy from the banks.

[duoduoa]

I've always wanted to live in a car...my only concern is that I don't want to use public toilet...public toilet is disgusting....