Racial Composition of Canadian Med School Classes

[Guest Mikey59]

Hey Everyone,

 

After applying to schools both north and south of the border, I noticed a huge difference in how schools in Canada and the US attempt to "diversify" their classes. Since I've spent equal time in both countries, its hard to get a feel for what's happening north of the border in many political issues.

 

Obviously, affirmative action policy is highly controversial in the States, but I didn't sense that this issue is taken into consideration at all in Canada. Does anyone know where I can find numbers that show the racial breakdown of med students in Canada relative to the representation of ethnic groups in Canada's population.?

 

I'm curious as to whether Canada produces an ethnically diverse physician population by default, or whether ethnicity is irrelevant in Canadian medicine?

 

Thanks in advance

[Guest UWOMED2005]

The composition of UWO's med school class is about the same as my High School: Completely mixed. About the same as if you walked into any mall in Toronto.

[Guest QM6]

I know that Queen's never asked us at any point to identify nationality/ethnicity/etc, and I don't know of any school in Canada tracking or recording that info (except for aboriginal students entering under reserved quotas) so I don't think you'll be able to find any numbers out there. My feeling is that under-representation of racial minorities isn't nearly as big an issue (if it is one at all) as the lack of diversity when it comes to people's financial backgrounds and resources (see the CFMS National Student Survey) - that's where the med student population really skews from the general Canadian distribution.

[Guest mying]

Actually, I'd say there's one significantly under-represented ethnicit(ies): Aboriginal. However, that's a systemic problem and one that's not going to get fixed over-night and isn't rooted at the medical schools themselves anyways. Hopefully the new Northern Ontario med school will push us on the path towards recruiting more Aboriginal med students.

 

Other than that, though, race/ethnicity is a non-issue. I don't think. I'm particularly notorious at being completely unable to identify "race" anyways so maybe I'm not the best one to say.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Hmm. . . actually, to be complete honest, I think we're underrepresented in terms of African-Canadians as well. I don't think there's a single African-Canadian in our class, but there are in the years ahead and below us.

 

But as I said, the class is very representative of my High School (in Ottawa). And in fact, it is culturally MORE diverse than my classes in undergrad (Halifax). . . though I found Nova Scotia to be on the whole somewhat less culturally diverse than Ontario, which makes sense as I think there has been less immigration to that part of the country over the last 50 years than to Ontario. On the whole, though, our class IS diverse, and though maybe not representative of Candian society as a whole, is probably representative of the undergrad programs where applicants are coming from.

 

We might have to as a Society ask why certain groups are underrepresented in the undergraduate population. . . but that's a discussion for another day.

[Guest tantastic]

You won't have any problem finding tons of Asians (Chinese, Koreans) and Indians in med school. I think perhaps the intense parental pressure of their parents really pushes alot of them into med school, and alot of them are really smart 8o relative to the Caucasian Population. My ethinic friends from these races often say they face reverse racism where people automatically assume they are really smart because they are Chinese or Indian.

[Guest 0T6]

"alot of them are really smart relative to the Caucasian Population"

 

I can't believe you said that, and I hope you didn't mean it the way I interpreted that.

There are as many asian or indian... how do I state this properly.. non-academics (?) proportion wise as there are in the caucasian population. One factor why it may seem that they're relatively smart is the Canadian immigration system - only the brightest are allowed into the countries through the immigrant system (refugees are a different story).

If you look at blacks in the US, the academic performance of descendants of slaves is far below recently immigrated blacks from the west indies. Why's this? Immigration policy. It's not because blacks are smart or blacks are dumb or whatever else evolutionary biologists may claim.

[Guest macdaddyeh]

I'm afraid that the tone of the foregoing posts is such that the theme is becoming questionable or objectionable. Where are fellow posters headed with their comments? We must be very careful not to stereotype ore generalize here. For example, I know you meant no harm tantastic but your post came across a wee brazen and your post title took me a little off guard(ie. tonnes of asians and indians in med school) as if a racial group could be lumped together [no reprimand meant; simply an advisory--as I've been scolded for a comment or two before....]

 

I enjoy the biodiversity that Toronto particularly represents but making sense of it is another issue. We all reconcile it in different ways. Many people are split on the issue of affirmative action for example...remember we all got to where we are now by our merit not our melanin (hopefully) but nonetheless I am glad that someone was bold enough to bring up the issue of diversity and multiculturalism...let is remember that diversity greatly transcends skin colour as well (ie. disability, religion, gender, etc)...

 

And to comment on the US position, I too have worked with many an American and are familiar with US policies...The American system is entirely polarly opposite in many ways to what you would find in Canada in terms of admissions and employment policies etc.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Yes, this is a sticky topic and if discussion doesn't remain civil it will probably need to be locked down.

 

Tantastic. . . seems you've been reading J. Phillippe Rushton (ie "Race, Evolution, and Behavior") and Richard Herrnstein & Charles Murray ("The Bell Curve.") Personally, I disagree with that kind of thinking. Sociology is a multi-disciplinary endeavour and to explain phenomena (such as the racial distribution of a medical school class). . . as OT6 has demonstrated, there are many different forces at work and to make a blanket statement such as the one you made is both overly simplistic and dangerous.

 

Yes, there are people of Asian (Indian, Sri Lankan, Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, etc.) descent in my class. Perhaps its more than representative of the Canadian population or less, I don't know. . . I've never counted. It's not really of interest to me. To me, their just classmates. . . with perhaps differing levels of melanin, as Macdaddyeh would put it.

[Guest Jerika81]

Just wanted to say that I don't think tantastic meant any harm. Although it's not a great subject, and not really correct since Indians are Asian.

However, although I am not Asian, I do have a lot of friends that are, and I think that it is true to a degree that there may be more pressure in those families to pursue careers in areas such as medicine and engineering.

[Guest faqir9]

WHY does everything have to be "locked down" if you don't like it? Let's assume the absolute worst case scenario developed. Speech often gets ugly. The remedy for speech that is ugly is not censorship. It is more speech. Locking down is not more speech. It is censorship. And it is an excellent reason for somebody to start another board. This knee jerk response is not isolated, it is threatened by moderators more and more. Its utterly juvenile. People in here are all adults. Stop insisting on (or threatening to) treating them like children.

[Guest faqir9]

and while we are on the topic, the only remotely uncivil thing I read was the attempt to taint by association, ie suggesting tantastic's comments must associated with the theses of the Bell Curve. I, for one, read both and don't see any conceivable way one could draw the inference.

 

Of course, just because I think you were grossly unfair to tantastic doesn't mean I think you should be quieted.

[Guest tantastic]

Seriously, there was no hurt intended.

 

But if you take an anonmyous poll of the aformentioned minority groups, many will tell you that there is tremendous pressure to enter into professional programs. This really intersects with cultural influence, behavoiur, value systems and they role these variables play in organization of society. In Western culture, it has been well studied that parents, place less pressure on their children to succeed and excel in academics. There is also more leniency towards activities that may reduce academic performance and focus on educational endevours (ie. drinking, partying, dating) etc.

 

It has been also shown in US studies (where race data is easily available) that Oriental and Indian students consistently rank in top percentiles on SAT scores, graduating GPA's (sample of 310 US Universities). The bottom quartile of graduating GPA's is almost exclusively made up of Caucasian students, surprisingly not Afro-American students. Consequently less than 1% of the bottom quartile contained Oriental or Indian students

 

All of this information was received through lectures in a third year Cross Cultural Psychology course at the University of Toronto.

 

With regards to the poster that believes this is due to immigration. Perhaps, but not likely as the majourity of students applying to professional schools were if not born in North America (arrived at early childhood). In this case it has been shown (in the US where the data is available) that caucasians rank lower in most intellectual ability measurements.

 

Oh yeah, I'm caucasian, so there are always exceptions to the rule i guess

 

Just some interesting findings. Delete the research if you feel its invasive on some level. I'm sure we won't comment on Catcher and the Rye, Moby dick or Huck Finn either.

[Guest strider2004]

Tantastic,

 

You are confusing GPA and IQ. The academic performance in school does not necessarilly relate to one's intelligence. Many of the the world's most gifted minds were unmotivated by a school system that could not handle them. Likewise, asian society encourages the pursuit of high grades and excellence in 'performance'. (Do what I tell you. Do it right and you'll get a good mark) This is a societal thing because N American students are taught more to 'expand' their minds.

 

As much as you'll find studies that show that asians do well in the SATs, you'll also find studies that show that students from asian societies tend to get better marks in hard sciences but N American students excel in lateral thinking.

 

The argument of asian parents pushing their kids into professional program is valid. As an asian, I can vouch for the lack of disapproval for me choosing medicine. I believe a lot of it has to do with 'immigration' and parents wanting their kids to have what they themselves didn't. When I grow up and become an old doctor, I probably WON'T encourage my kids to become physicians.

 

All of the research out there cannot take society and culture out of the picture. Before you start quoting studies, make sure you're not just looking at one side. In one paragraph, you're talking about the influence of parents on their children's choices. The next paragraph, you're talking about how one race is 'smarter' than the other? Please try and separate the two because you obviously know that there is a difference.

 

Immigration still plays a policy. The cultural influences of a society do not stop one generation after immigration. You'll also find that most asians immigrated here within the last 50 years. If you take a caucasian from N America and place him/her in asia, you'll probably find that they'll do better than most of their class. Why? They'd probably be more motivated to excel than the 'native' population.

 

Geez, I wanna say more but I have more pressing matters (like sign-in rounds)

[Guest macdaddyeh]

Consistent with the post by Faqir9, I don't think anyone was making an "inference" that what was initially said was necessarily racist or awful, etc.

 

My original intent on posting after Tantastic did was simply like making an advisory (ie. Where is this going? Let's be careful). It seems to me that since I posted people are becoming more controversial. That said, I too disagree with any type of lockdown or censure, unless somebody wrote something blatantly nasty.

 

Tantastic specifically, I knew you meant no harm and I too didn't want to come across too harsh. Remember, despite skin colour for example, we still live is a CLASSIST society which discriminates on people's ability to pay for things and live a certain lifestyle etc. That's perhaps more pervasive.....and to throw in a little realism to this discussion, racism exists in EVERY society (unfortunately). For example, for those who have dark-skinned friends or relatives you may have encountered "shadism" in which lighter skin is seen as more attractive.

 

Now to keep this conversation within the realm of academia, I too believe skin colour has no bearing whatsoever on someone's academic ability, but that said some backgrounds may be more disadvantaged societally (not necessarilly by individual brain power).

 

In terms of med school admissions, I am pleased to see the increasing diversity and am equally pleased to know that (at least in Canada) people get into med school by their merit. The only affirmative action that exists to my knowledge is for native aboriginals and even natives can be split on this issue. One of my family members is native and he is VEHEMENTLY opposed to natives getting any extra treatment. I am opposed to his belief for example; if anybody deserves a flexible/liberal admissions policy, it is the native population who are desperately short of health care providers and who have a high incidence of certain illnesses which might be better addressed and understood by a fellow native. They have also suffered too much for too long and it is time they had equal opportunity.

[Guest Natalie]

CMAJ published a relevant questionnaire of 1st year med students - Characteristics of first-year students in Canadian medical schools

[Guest kellyl20]

From my observations of UBC med students, there are actually not many Asians...especially if one is to compare with the student population at the UBC campus.

Parents might push all they like for their Asian kids to go into med, but it is ultimately the ad. com that decides who gets in whether it is by interview scores or whatever else methods they want to use. Not sure about the rest of the country but at UBC there does not seem to be an over representation of Asians in med at all.

[Guest Mikey59]

Originally Posted by Natalie

CMAJ published a relevant questionnaire of 1st year med students - Characteristics of first-year students in Canadian medical schools

 

Thanks Natalie, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

In case anyone didn't care to read through the whole study, here is the bottom line:

 

We found that Canadian medical students are not representative of the Canadian population. Medical students are much more likely than the general Canadian population to come from urban areas, come from neighbourhoods with high median family incomes and be children of well-educated, professional parents. Medical students are also far less likely the general Canadian population to be black or Aboriginal.

 

I surmise that the existence of extreme racial tension in many parts of the US and its presence in the media, history, courts, elections, prison system etc. has made this a much bigger issue south of the border (although both countries seem to faced with the same issue).

 

Would everyone agree that Canadians are less likely to see race as a factor than Americans would when choosing a family doctor? From what I remember in Canada, ethnic groups do not seem to be as cohesive as they are in the US (large African American populations or Latino populations for example that share cultural and geographic territory) - Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest NeuropsychiatristWNAB]

I find this entire thread to be rather weird. A display of preoccupation with physical characteristics in order to create a social grouping, easily labeled, called "race" as a means to understanding "diversity" in Canadian medical schools is just as weird as wanting to know how many people have blue eyes in medical schools in Canada.

 

There is no such thing as race with in the human species. The concept is a social invention that really can be traced back to the beginning of the American slave trade and, I am hopeful, had its end with the Jewish Holocaust.

 

Presenting a query based on the premise of the existence of different human races, i.e. subspecies, is certainly not doing any good for the elimination and complete dispelling of this horrible myth.

 

Indeed, perhaps what you want to be discussing is the economic diversity, diversity of nationalities, cultures, and religions in Canadian medical schools.

 

Please, don't use the term 'race' so lightly. There is only one race of humans. That is, 100% of the people in Canadian medical schools are of the same race-homo sapiens. That said, I think some med. schools in the U.S. have a few funky-monkeys and a couple of panda bears in their classes.

[Guest 0T6]

Couldn't agree with you more.

The problem that exists is the fact that while biologically insignificant, race is still sociologically significant. Fortunately, the role of one's race in one's life has diminished substantially in past decades, but research shows that people still see race and it plays a part in decisions (i.e. employment).

[Guest Mikey59]

NeuropsychiatristWNAB,

 

All I asked was simple question that was not as taboo as you make it out to be. If research studies are being conducted on this subject by reputable scientists, its obviously a pertinent sociological issue, and as a future med student, I take interest in the topic.

 

For you to dismiss this as irrelevant is naive- you are obviously living in some kind of Marxist dreamworld where people of all backgrounds hold hands and sing Kumbaya before choosing who will occupy society's prominent positions.

 

The day "skin colour" or "ethnicity" (whatever politically correct term you want to label it) is no longer a basis for decision making in society is the day where I would concede to the superiority of your argument- Unfortunately that day is no time soon.

[Guest NeuropsychiatristWNAB]

I never said that ethnicity was irrelevent. I never said that ethnic groupings were unimportant sociological factors or without basis in decision making.

 

My only point was that there is no such thing as race. What you mean to ask about is ethnicity/nationality/cultural background.

 

See: www.west.asu.edu/iejlg/

 

Also, there is no argument for you to "...concede to..." as I was merely pointing out popular biological opinion. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know about the ethnic diversity of medical classes. There is something very wrong with beleiving in race within the human species. Since I doubt that you are a racist, I think you were just unaware of the difference between the biological term "race" and the actuality of the ethnic groupings within our society. I apologise if you think I was attacking your question. I meant no offence and only wished to point out the misuse of the word.

[Guest Mikey59]

Thanks for the clarification Neuro, no hard feelings:)

[Guest NeuropsychiatristWNAB]

No hard feelings, indeed.

[Guest osindy]

okay, for what its worth I'm going to be the black sheep here and say what is going to probably be unpopular. The is very much a race, there are race relations, racial issues and racial tensions. Whether you want to call it an ethnicity is cool but that is usually just a subcategory of a racial group. It irks me sometimes when people in Canada try and say that there are no real racial issues or racial tension in the country. I find that it is usually members of a majority group, a minority that grew up with mostly the majority, or the well off minorities that no one wants to piss off that take this view (in MY opinion).

 

I feel that racial issues are just discussed in private in hushed tones and every once in a while it spills out to the surface. It is not the extent of what it is in the US where some people wear their hatred on their skin or cars or houses, but trust me, we are not some happy melting pot, and I should know! But at least we've learned to live along side each other!

 

(oh and the person posting about people living in the same area as their groups i.e Latino neighbourhoods, black neighbourhoods; that's kind off @#%$, that's a result of poverty or where their income relegates them, you can't tell me a Latino from the Bronx wouldn't want to live in a huge house in Grenwich or a penthouse in Manhattan just because they prefer to be with their 'kind')